5 ms·

And yet people still manage to accidentally shoot themselves when cleaning their firearms. Usually it's a series of failures that lead to such an incident, rat

And yet people still manage to accidentally shoot themselves when cleaning their firearms. Usually it's a series of failures that lead to such an incident, rather than one single critical failure. Failsafes aren't failproofs.

hnarn 8y ago
I'm not sure I understand your point, surely people shoot themselves by accident because they neglect to remove ammunition from the weapon, proving my point? It's not a "series of failures", it's the exact opposite, it's literally one failure.
- RyJones 8y ago
  Breaking one rule of firearm safety won't lead to death or injury. Breaking two at the same time might. It is not one failure. It is at least two.
  - CydeWeys 8y ago
    In the case of firearms it might be 3 or more rules you'd have to break simultaneously to experience a negligent injurious discharge: Don't point the gun at something you don't intend to shoot, don't keep a gun loaded unless necessary, don't put your finger on the trigger until preparing to shoot, and use the gun's manual safety if it has one.
    - RyJones 8y ago
      Sure. I wanted to avoid the argument over Cooper rules versus NRA rules; I wanted to emphasize that regardless of the rules you use, you need to break multiple rules. The rules interlock.
  - hnarn 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, what are the other rules, in addition to forgetting to empty the weapon?
    - RyJones 8y ago
      Cooper's four rules: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/5/18/jeff-cooper-father-of-modern-pistol-shooting/ https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/5/18/jeff-coo... NRA's three rules: https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org You'll often see the Cooper rules slightly restated: https://www.hunter-ed.com/gun-safety/ https://www.hunter-ed.com/gun-safety/ I'm not a fan of "as if".
nradov 8y ago
Many of those "gun cleaning accidents" are actually suicides. When there's any doubt the authorities often record the incident as an accident to spare the family some pain and make it easier for them to collect life insurance.
davidgould 8y ago
Not really. Base on years of using and cleaning guns for hunting and target shooting and from reading several hundred reports of gun cleaning "accidents", "gun cleaning accident" is polite fiction for "I shot myself (or someone else!) playing with my gun". Although, to be fair, some of them are suicides and possibly the occasional murder. Normally guns only need cleaning if they have been fired or have somehow gotten wet or contaminated. The procedure to clean a gun goes like this: 1) Remove ammunition 2) Partially disassemble gun (depending on model) 3) Scrub a cleaning rod and brush through the barrel and chamber 4) Reassemble Removing the ammunition has to happen, otherwise you cannot run the brush though the barrel because the ammunition is in the way. So shooting yourself while cleaning a gun because you didn't know it was loaded is like driving off without your car keys. Not too plausible. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to have an accident playing with a gun, and apparently shooting yourself is deeply embarrassing so it's not uncommon to lie about "I was cleaning it". I don't know why the police accept this story, just a social nicety I guess. Of course this story works best if the "accident" happens in the home. A surprisingly common variation in cases where the gun owner shoots themselves in a parked car or suchlike (often with a newly purchased gun) is that a "black man ran up/drove by" and shot them for no reason. Sometimes the assailant was "wearing black clothes" and/or "driving a "black SUV". The police tend to be more skeptical about this although not always. [0] [1] [0] http://www.startribune.com/wounded-st-kate-s-security-officer-who-lied-about-being-shot-said-gunman-was-black/444452013/ http://www.startribune.com/wounded-st-kate-s-security-office... [1] https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Police-White-Man-Blamed-Self-inflicted-Gunshot-at-Virginia-Motel-on-Black-Men--479895953.html https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Police-White-Man-Bl...
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  I agree that shooting yourself while cleaning a gun sounds impossible, but there are enough guns in this country that the occasional absurd mistake is going to happen. You could accidentally shoot yourself before completing step 1. You could accidentally shoot yourself during steps 2 or 3 if you skip step 1. The brush won't go through the barrel if ammunition is in the way, but that doesn't mean the cleaner won't keep trying.
  - 8y ago

hnarn 8y ago

I'm not sure I understand your point, surely people shoot themselves by accident because they neglect to remove ammunition from the weapon, proving my point? It's not a "series of failures", it's the exact opposite, it's literally one failure.

RyJones 8y ago
Breaking one rule of firearm safety won't lead to death or injury. Breaking two at the same time might. It is not one failure. It is at least two.
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  In the case of firearms it might be 3 or more rules you'd have to break simultaneously to experience a negligent injurious discharge: Don't point the gun at something you don't intend to shoot, don't keep a gun loaded unless necessary, don't put your finger on the trigger until preparing to shoot, and use the gun's manual safety if it has one.
  - RyJones 8y ago
    Sure. I wanted to avoid the argument over Cooper rules versus NRA rules; I wanted to emphasize that regardless of the rules you use, you need to break multiple rules. The rules interlock.
- hnarn 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, what are the other rules, in addition to forgetting to empty the weapon?
  - RyJones 8y ago
    Cooper's four rules: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/5/18/jeff-cooper-father-of-modern-pistol-shooting/ https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/5/18/jeff-coo... NRA's three rules: https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org You'll often see the Cooper rules slightly restated: https://www.hunter-ed.com/gun-safety/ https://www.hunter-ed.com/gun-safety/ I'm not a fan of "as if".

nradov 8y ago

Many of those "gun cleaning accidents" are actually suicides. When there's any doubt the authorities often record the incident as an accident to spare the family some pain and make it easier for them to collect life insurance.

davidgould 8y ago

Not really. Base on years of using and cleaning guns for hunting and target shooting and from reading several hundred reports of gun cleaning "accidents", "gun cleaning accident" is polite fiction for "I shot myself (or someone else!) playing with my gun". Although, to be fair, some of them are suicides and possibly the occasional murder. Normally guns only need cleaning if they have been fired or have somehow gotten wet or contaminated. The procedure to clean a gun goes like this: 1) Remove ammunition 2) Partially disassemble gun (depending on model) 3) Scrub a cleaning rod and brush through the barrel and chamber 4) Reassemble Removing the ammunition has to happen, otherwise you cannot run the brush though the barrel because the ammunition is in the way. So shooting yourself while cleaning a gun because you didn't know it was loaded is like driving off without your car keys. Not too plausible. On the other hand, it's pretty easy to have an accident playing with a gun, and apparently shooting yourself is deeply embarrassing so it's not uncommon to lie about "I was cleaning it". I don't know why the police accept this story, just a social nicety I guess. Of course this story works best if the "accident" happens in the home. A surprisingly common variation in cases where the gun owner shoots themselves in a parked car or suchlike (often with a newly purchased gun) is that a "black man ran up/drove by" and shot them for no reason. Sometimes the assailant was "wearing black clothes" and/or "driving a "black SUV". The police tend to be more skeptical about this although not always. [0] [1] [0] http://www.startribune.com/wounded-st-kate-s-security-officer-who-lied-about-being-shot-said-gunman-was-black/444452013/ http://www.startribune.com/wounded-st-kate-s-security-office... [1] https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Police-White-Man-Blamed-Self-inflicted-Gunshot-at-Virginia-Motel-on-Black-Men--479895953.html https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Police-White-Man-Bl...

daveFNbuck 8y ago
I agree that shooting yourself while cleaning a gun sounds impossible, but there are enough guns in this country that the occasional absurd mistake is going to happen. You could accidentally shoot yourself before completing step 1. You could accidentally shoot yourself during steps 2 or 3 if you skip step 1. The brush won't go through the barrel if ammunition is in the way, but that doesn't mean the cleaner won't keep trying.
- 8y ago