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I did this, and unfortunately your fears became reality for me. Like you said, I only had a vague idea of what I wanted to do (including traveling, starting my

I did this, and unfortunately your fears became reality for me. Like you said, I only had a vague idea of what I wanted to do (including traveling, starting my own company, continuing education, side projects, etc). Almost 2 years into it I ended up just barely dabbling in each. I traveled for a few months, worked on some side projects, and learned some new things, but didn't really do anything "big" or traditionally "worthwhile" with my sabbatical. I look at my friends and colleagues who in this time period have gotten promotions, new jobs, MBAs, etc and I start feel like my time has been wasted. People keep telling me that once I join the workforce again that I will look back fondly on this time, but right now I definitely don't. The most frustrating thing I have experienced is that society in general is still not accepting of people taking "sabbatical" in their 20s. While about 10% of people think it's cool that I quit my job and am flying by the seat of my pants, the other 90% hear that I'm unemployed and treat me like a pariah. It's been very eye opening to me just how linked your personal identity is to your job. And I don't mean job as in "I am a programmer", but specifically the actual name of the company you are employed by. I've had people be very interested in conversation with me at social events when I talk about work-related things, but when I actually say the words "I don't currently work anywhere and am taking some time off", those same people have literally picked up their drinks and walked away. It's particularly bad with recruiters now that I'm ready to start looking for a new job again. Even though I left my company on extremely good terms (they literally begged me to stay!), recruiters seem to see that I left [insert major well respected company here] and assume that I must been have fired. Most still seem to think Google et al are some extremely coveted workplaces and can't imagine that someone would willingly leave them. It is a very tough hurdle to get over.

shawn 8y ago
While about 10% of people think it's cool that I quit my job and am just flying by the seat of my pants, the other 90% hear that I'm unemployed and treat me like a pariah. The trick for getting around this is to form an LLC and say that you were freelancing. No one will ask questions. And, after all, it's true. You would have taken money in exchange for services rendered, had a sufficiently-enticing opportunity presented itself. So it's not even a lie.
colanderman 8y ago
> the other 90% hear that I'm unemployed and treat me like a pariah Are you sure it's that, or could it be because they find they have trouble relating to someone who is in such a privileged financial position to do nothing for two years, when they themselves may be financially insecure? People relate through shared struggle and experience. When you say, "I don't work and I don't need to", you've dashed any sense of camaraderie a stranger, or even many friends, might have felt.
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  It's funny you ask that, because I was just in the middle of writing an addendum to my comment about how people will react to observations I have about my sabbatical due to my "privilege", and "how dare you complain about being financially secure", etc. It's interesting to see just how mean/jealous some people get when they hear that I'm able to financially survive without a current source of income. Like the author did in his first paragraph, it seems that every time I talk about being unemployed I have to caveat it with some "I know I'm privileged etc etc but hear me out..." because otherwise people will summarily dismiss anything I say. You haven't explicitly done so in your comment, but others in this same post have (see bottom of the comments in particular), and I've even had people in real life maliciously accuse me of secretly being a 1%-er (I'm not even close). To answer your question more directly: I've considered it, and that's probably the case for some of those interactions (see above), but the majority of the ones I'm specifically thinking of are interactions with people that I know for a fact are much better off financially than I and make just as much (if not more) than I do/did.
  - colanderman 8y ago
    Even financial peers may nonetheless view your position as privileged, because they may not be able to give up whatever it is you did to be able to leave their job. Perhaps they are burdened with debt, or have a family to support, or may simply lead an expensive lifestyle that is not socially tenable for them to curtail. It could even just be that their partner – or potential partners if they are unattached – would be uncomfortable with them taking a two-year unpaid sabbatical, so even if they wanted to, they couldn't do so in good conscience. To put it another way – who wouldn't take a two year sabbatical if they could? The fact that it's rare, even among well-paid tech workers, is a good indicator that it's not within the realm of relatability for most. I also don't think it's necessarily a judgement of privilege. Consider the reverse scenario: a party of people enjoying their sabbaticals, and one person with a desk job. No-one's going to hold a conversation for long with that person, simply because their day-to-day experiences are not relatable. The sabbatical crowd will want to talk about long-term travel, how to stave off boredom, and the interesting startup ideas they're working on. No-one wants to hear this one guy's stories about scrum drama, getting a promotion, and taking their kids to the recent company outing. His stories may be positive or negative, boring or interesting, but no-one else can commiserate with their own current experience. For anything topical you're left with sports and the weather.
stephengillie 8y ago
Because these are all the excuses people give when they were fired and couldn't find another job. Especially after 2 years, when the unemployed person has likely given up on the search. But seriously, if you enjoyed the job so much, why leave? Why not just take a quick vacation and keep enjoying the job?
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  >Because these are all the excuses people give when they were fired and couldn't find another job. Especially after 2 years, when the unemployed person has likely given up on the search. Yea, I'm aware of that, and I don't necessarily blame the recruiters for that, but it does suck for me. >But seriously, if you enjoyed the job so much, why leave? Why not just take a quick vacation and keep enjoying the job? I didn't enjoy the job. I worked my ass off doing 60-70 hour weeks in a position I disliked with co-workers I didn't respect because I knew that sticking it out would get me early promotions and bonuses, which is what gave me the financial security to take time off. In doing so I guess I also proved that I am a good employee, which is why my company tried so hard to get me to stay (and has even tried to re-hire me a few times). But I didn't enjoy it, and would only go back as a last resort (unfortunately, because of the reasons mentioned in my original comment re: recruiting, it seems I may have to go with that last resort). The specific company I worked for is actually known internally for being a place that people commonly work hard for 3-4 years, take the payday, and then quit to go do something else. But externally, it has a reputation of being a great place to work and I've had a lot of recruiters express surprise/disbelief that I would willingly leave it.
  - stephengillie 8y ago
    Why did you work so hard when you hated the job and coworkers so much? Why not find a similar role at a place you enjoyed more? Have you talked to a counselor about workaholism?
    - txcwpalpha 8y ago
      >Why did you work so hard when you hated the job and coworkers so much? I think you might have good intentions with this question, but it seem a bit silly. You could ask the same question to anyone about any job. Why do you think the millions of investment bankers or consultants or lawyers or medical residents work long hours? Why do people work long hours in shitty retail or food service jobs? Why do people work in sweat shops? Not everyone has the opportunity to work somewhere they "enjoy more", but they keep working anyway because at the end of the day we all need a paycheck. >Why not find a similar role at a place you enjoyed more? That's precisely what I'm trying to do now. If you mean "why didn't you find a similar enjoyable role to begin with?", because those enjoyable roles don't pay nearly as much, and I wanted to build up a decent-sized savings so that I could take time off, travel, and work on side projects. My "plan" was to spend a few years working hard, build up a nest egg and a resume, and then transition into something more "enjoyable" though lower paying. The first part of that plan went swimmingly, but the transition part has been a little rocky.
nubbins 8y ago
Not sure who your friends are but where I am half the young people are creatives or otherwise not traditionally full time employed and my experience has been people are far more likely to avoid you for being a boring banker/lawyer/accountant in a suit (which I used to be) than unemployed with a good story about what you are doing, which could spark a decent conversation.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  I don’t know. I’ve had to actively hide my unemployment as well to get people to take me seriously. Even switching to ‘I am a freelancer’ makes you so much more desirable as a conversation partner...
  - Drdrdrq 8y ago
    That's actually a great way out of this situation. Recruiters know that there are many gems among freelancers, so working on side projects or on short paid projects should put GP in a whole different category.
- nwellinghoff 8y ago
  What the fuck is a "creative"?
  - Latteland 8y ago
    I'm guessing it's "not like a boring programmer"?
  - yoz-y 8y ago
    An encompassing term for artists, designers, illustrators and other profession where your job is mainly to get original ideas and implement them.
    - Latteland 8y ago
      So does that mean using engineering and math as the basis of building bespoke software is not creative in that sense? Just curious, not criticism - because I always thought of designing the architecture of a large software system, making it work within constraints, codes, making it easy to work on, fit withing design constraints, a beautiful UI, even a new programming language as creative.
dominotw 8y ago
> "I don't currently work anywhere and am taking some time off", those same people have literally picked up their drinks and walked away. Wow. Really. Fuck them. Whats so great about talking to ppl with office job.
- 09bjb 8y ago
  Seriously. What a great filter for people you wouldn't want to grow close to anyway. "If we can't talk about corporate servitude, why talk at all?" /s, hilarious.
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  I thought the same thing! And I'm tempted to say that if that was their reaction, I probably wouldn't get along with those people very well anyway. Still, it was very jarring when it happened, because it was clear that it was my statement of unemployment that turned them away.
09bjb 8y ago
As someone who has "taken a lot of time off" to spend time _on_ the things I think are important, may I suggest answering the work question with "I'm currently working on _____" or "Right now I'm spending a lot of time on _____". There are a hundred ways to direct the conversation somewhere productive and fun, but "I don't currently work anywhere and am taking some time off" does sound like an embarrassed euphemism for "unemployed." Don't be embarrassed.
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  I appreciate that advise, it's something I've been trying to do more recently, and I've noticed it does help in conversation. The funny thing is that, even though my original comment hints at how regretful I am now of being unemployed, it didn't use to be that way. I used to be very proud of having left my job and being unemployed! I thought I had made a great decision and it didn't even occur to me until months later that people would see "taking time off" as an "embarrassed euphemism" rather than something good.
  - ericd 8y ago
    You should be proud. It shows that you have at least some financial discipline and ability to save, which is not something everyone can say. It really helps to work on something interesting, even if it's very part time, and purely for fun. That might also help with your recruiting woes. Also, sabbaticals don't seem that uncommon in the Bay Area, at least among people I know. Maybe it's a regional culture difference thing that makes it seem so taboo in your area?
adrianmonk 8y ago
About accomplishment, maybe the thing you wanted out of escaping the rat race was to take a break from feeling like you constantly did have to accomplish something. As long as there isn't something seriously wrong (such as depression that leads to inability to enjoy pursuits), maybe that is OK. It could be important to be able to accept that you don't always have to accomplish something, and that your life doesn't have to be about maximizing how much you can accomplish. (Which is a different thing than saying it's OK to never accomplish anything or OK to consistently accomplish very little.) You don't recover from burnout or whatever else by driving yourself crazy with worry and guilt over how you aren't living up to some standard. About the weird reactions, I've been through that after making a similar choice, and I've found that with some people, they are just not even slightly open-minded about it and they are going to judge you instantly. You can't do much about those people. But with other people, their reaction will depend on how you present it to them. You've just told them you're doing something far outside the social norm, and they're going to be thrown for a loop and wondering why and how to understand it. They don't know if you're a lazy, broke, aimless loser or a person who has a plan and is doing this for some kind of purpose and real benefit to making their life better overall. You're going to get a whole different reaction depending on whether you say "Uhh... so yeah, I'm not working anywhere right now" or "I was fortunate enough to be in a good place financially, and I really wanted to take a year off, so I am". The second one signals that you're in charge, you're content with what you're doing, and your successful enough to give yourself the opportunity.
- txcwpalpha 8y ago
  Thanks for making this comment. You did a good job of putting into words what I have struggled to express to myself. I resonate entirely with your comment, but unfortunately for me, my problem is that it's a lot harder to actually put these things into practice. >About accomplishment, maybe the thing you wanted out of escaping the rat race was to take a break from feeling like you constantly did have to accomplish something. 100% yes! In fact, when I first left my job, this was exactly what was foremost on my mind and I intentionally took a one-month period where I essentially vacationed and didn't "accomplish" anything. I was very proud of having escaped the rat race, and felt good about it. After that is when I started to "get back into it" and work on side projects, etc. I was still confident that taking time off was a great decision, even if I didn't come out of it with an MBA or a startup. Unfortunately, ~20 months later, things have changed. I've gotten enough negative reactions in those 20 months, and enough rejected job applications and negative conversations with recruiters regarding my employment gap, that I really start to question (even if only subconsciously) the entire situation I put myself in by quitting. I've started to lose that confidence that I initially had, and once that confidence starts to erode, it's been really hard to get back.
nikkwong 8y ago
> those same people have literally picked up their drinks and walked away. I think it might be attitude personally. I am 26 and have been making it on my own for the last two years, and I think I'm so excited about what I've been doing and sharing it that people always seem curious enough to listen. Be able to hype up what you do! Whatever it is. That's a skill for sure.
dunkelheit 8y ago
Thanks for sharing your experience. Specific information about the downsides of this path is very valuable for me (and others, I guess).
DoreenMichele 8y ago
It is sort of the job version of "All the good ones are married." A currently employed individual with talent and a great job is a highly desirable candidate. Everyone else is, at best, a bit suspicious. However, how you present that info can make a difference.
csomar 8y ago
> but when I actually say the words "I don't currently work anywhere > and am taking some time off", those same people have literally picked up their drinks and walked away. To me, this sounds like a good filter. In fact I have been using this sub-consciously with girls when they ask me about my day job. I don't answer with "serial killer", it is screaming "I'm unemployed and unsecure". But rather "I don't really work or have anything right now". Start getting rid of useless people. The sooner, the better. It is very hard to get rid of people if they are opening discussions so this time they just disappeared away.

shawn 8y ago

While about 10% of people think it's cool that I quit my job and am just flying by the seat of my pants, the other 90% hear that I'm unemployed and treat me like a pariah. The trick for getting around this is to form an LLC and say that you were freelancing. No one will ask questions. And, after all, it's true. You would have taken money in exchange for services rendered, had a sufficiently-enticing opportunity presented itself. So it's not even a lie.

colanderman 8y ago

> the other 90% hear that I'm unemployed and treat me like a pariah Are you sure it's that, or could it be because they find they have trouble relating to someone who is in such a privileged financial position to do nothing for two years, when they themselves may be financially insecure? People relate through shared struggle and experience. When you say, "I don't work and I don't need to", you've dashed any sense of camaraderie a stranger, or even many friends, might have felt.

txcwpalpha 8y ago
It's funny you ask that, because I was just in the middle of writing an addendum to my comment about how people will react to observations I have about my sabbatical due to my "privilege", and "how dare you complain about being financially secure", etc. It's interesting to see just how mean/jealous some people get when they hear that I'm able to financially survive without a current source of income. Like the author did in his first paragraph, it seems that every time I talk about being unemployed I have to caveat it with some "I know I'm privileged etc etc but hear me out..." because otherwise people will summarily dismiss anything I say. You haven't explicitly done so in your comment, but others in this same post have (see bottom of the comments in particular), and I've even had people in real life maliciously accuse me of secretly being a 1%-er (I'm not even close). To answer your question more directly: I've considered it, and that's probably the case for some of those interactions (see above), but the majority of the ones I'm specifically thinking of are interactions with people that I know for a fact are much better off financially than I and make just as much (if not more) than I do/did.
- colanderman 8y ago
  Even financial peers may nonetheless view your position as privileged, because they may not be able to give up whatever it is you did to be able to leave their job. Perhaps they are burdened with debt, or have a family to support, or may simply lead an expensive lifestyle that is not socially tenable for them to curtail. It could even just be that their partner – or potential partners if they are unattached – would be uncomfortable with them taking a two-year unpaid sabbatical, so even if they wanted to, they couldn't do so in good conscience. To put it another way – who wouldn't take a two year sabbatical if they could? The fact that it's rare, even among well-paid tech workers, is a good indicator that it's not within the realm of relatability for most. I also don't think it's necessarily a judgement of privilege. Consider the reverse scenario: a party of people enjoying their sabbaticals, and one person with a desk job. No-one's going to hold a conversation for long with that person, simply because their day-to-day experiences are not relatable. The sabbatical crowd will want to talk about long-term travel, how to stave off boredom, and the interesting startup ideas they're working on. No-one wants to hear this one guy's stories about scrum drama, getting a promotion, and taking their kids to the recent company outing. His stories may be positive or negative, boring or interesting, but no-one else can commiserate with their own current experience. For anything topical you're left with sports and the weather.

stephengillie 8y ago

Because these are all the excuses people give when they were fired and couldn't find another job. Especially after 2 years, when the unemployed person has likely given up on the search. But seriously, if you enjoyed the job so much, why leave? Why not just take a quick vacation and keep enjoying the job?

txcwpalpha 8y ago
>Because these are all the excuses people give when they were fired and couldn't find another job. Especially after 2 years, when the unemployed person has likely given up on the search. Yea, I'm aware of that, and I don't necessarily blame the recruiters for that, but it does suck for me. >But seriously, if you enjoyed the job so much, why leave? Why not just take a quick vacation and keep enjoying the job? I didn't enjoy the job. I worked my ass off doing 60-70 hour weeks in a position I disliked with co-workers I didn't respect because I knew that sticking it out would get me early promotions and bonuses, which is what gave me the financial security to take time off. In doing so I guess I also proved that I am a good employee, which is why my company tried so hard to get me to stay (and has even tried to re-hire me a few times). But I didn't enjoy it, and would only go back as a last resort (unfortunately, because of the reasons mentioned in my original comment re: recruiting, it seems I may have to go with that last resort). The specific company I worked for is actually known internally for being a place that people commonly work hard for 3-4 years, take the payday, and then quit to go do something else. But externally, it has a reputation of being a great place to work and I've had a lot of recruiters express surprise/disbelief that I would willingly leave it.
- stephengillie 8y ago
  Why did you work so hard when you hated the job and coworkers so much? Why not find a similar role at a place you enjoyed more? Have you talked to a counselor about workaholism?
  - txcwpalpha 8y ago
    >Why did you work so hard when you hated the job and coworkers so much? I think you might have good intentions with this question, but it seem a bit silly. You could ask the same question to anyone about any job. Why do you think the millions of investment bankers or consultants or lawyers or medical residents work long hours? Why do people work long hours in shitty retail or food service jobs? Why do people work in sweat shops? Not everyone has the opportunity to work somewhere they "enjoy more", but they keep working anyway because at the end of the day we all need a paycheck. >Why not find a similar role at a place you enjoyed more? That's precisely what I'm trying to do now. If you mean "why didn't you find a similar enjoyable role to begin with?", because those enjoyable roles don't pay nearly as much, and I wanted to build up a decent-sized savings so that I could take time off, travel, and work on side projects. My "plan" was to spend a few years working hard, build up a nest egg and a resume, and then transition into something more "enjoyable" though lower paying. The first part of that plan went swimmingly, but the transition part has been a little rocky.

nubbins 8y ago

Not sure who your friends are but where I am half the young people are creatives or otherwise not traditionally full time employed and my experience has been people are far more likely to avoid you for being a boring banker/lawyer/accountant in a suit (which I used to be) than unemployed with a good story about what you are doing, which could spark a decent conversation.

Aeolun 8y ago
I don’t know. I’ve had to actively hide my unemployment as well to get people to take me seriously. Even switching to ‘I am a freelancer’ makes you so much more desirable as a conversation partner...
- Drdrdrq 8y ago
  That's actually a great way out of this situation. Recruiters know that there are many gems among freelancers, so working on side projects or on short paid projects should put GP in a whole different category.
nwellinghoff 8y ago
What the fuck is a "creative"?
- Latteland 8y ago
  I'm guessing it's "not like a boring programmer"?
- yoz-y 8y ago
  An encompassing term for artists, designers, illustrators and other profession where your job is mainly to get original ideas and implement them.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    So does that mean using engineering and math as the basis of building bespoke software is not creative in that sense? Just curious, not criticism - because I always thought of designing the architecture of a large software system, making it work within constraints, codes, making it easy to work on, fit withing design constraints, a beautiful UI, even a new programming language as creative.

dominotw 8y ago

> "I don't currently work anywhere and am taking some time off", those same people have literally picked up their drinks and walked away. Wow. Really. Fuck them. Whats so great about talking to ppl with office job.

09bjb 8y ago
Seriously. What a great filter for people you wouldn't want to grow close to anyway. "If we can't talk about corporate servitude, why talk at all?" /s, hilarious.
txcwpalpha 8y ago
I thought the same thing! And I'm tempted to say that if that was their reaction, I probably wouldn't get along with those people very well anyway. Still, it was very jarring when it happened, because it was clear that it was my statement of unemployment that turned them away.

09bjb 8y ago

As someone who has "taken a lot of time off" to spend time _on_ the things I think are important, may I suggest answering the work question with "I'm currently working on _____" or "Right now I'm spending a lot of time on _____". There are a hundred ways to direct the conversation somewhere productive and fun, but "I don't currently work anywhere and am taking some time off" does sound like an embarrassed euphemism for "unemployed." Don't be embarrassed.

txcwpalpha 8y ago
I appreciate that advise, it's something I've been trying to do more recently, and I've noticed it does help in conversation. The funny thing is that, even though my original comment hints at how regretful I am now of being unemployed, it didn't use to be that way. I used to be very proud of having left my job and being unemployed! I thought I had made a great decision and it didn't even occur to me until months later that people would see "taking time off" as an "embarrassed euphemism" rather than something good.
- ericd 8y ago
  You should be proud. It shows that you have at least some financial discipline and ability to save, which is not something everyone can say. It really helps to work on something interesting, even if it's very part time, and purely for fun. That might also help with your recruiting woes. Also, sabbaticals don't seem that uncommon in the Bay Area, at least among people I know. Maybe it's a regional culture difference thing that makes it seem so taboo in your area?

adrianmonk 8y ago

About accomplishment, maybe the thing you wanted out of escaping the rat race was to take a break from feeling like you constantly did have to accomplish something. As long as there isn't something seriously wrong (such as depression that leads to inability to enjoy pursuits), maybe that is OK. It could be important to be able to accept that you don't always have to accomplish something, and that your life doesn't have to be about maximizing how much you can accomplish. (Which is a different thing than saying it's OK to never accomplish anything or OK to consistently accomplish very little.) You don't recover from burnout or whatever else by driving yourself crazy with worry and guilt over how you aren't living up to some standard. About the weird reactions, I've been through that after making a similar choice, and I've found that with some people, they are just not even slightly open-minded about it and they are going to judge you instantly. You can't do much about those people. But with other people, their reaction will depend on how you present it to them. You've just told them you're doing something far outside the social norm, and they're going to be thrown for a loop and wondering why and how to understand it. They don't know if you're a lazy, broke, aimless loser or a person who has a plan and is doing this for some kind of purpose and real benefit to making their life better overall. You're going to get a whole different reaction depending on whether you say "Uhh... so yeah, I'm not working anywhere right now" or "I was fortunate enough to be in a good place financially, and I really wanted to take a year off, so I am". The second one signals that you're in charge, you're content with what you're doing, and your successful enough to give yourself the opportunity.

txcwpalpha 8y ago
Thanks for making this comment. You did a good job of putting into words what I have struggled to express to myself. I resonate entirely with your comment, but unfortunately for me, my problem is that it's a lot harder to actually put these things into practice. >About accomplishment, maybe the thing you wanted out of escaping the rat race was to take a break from feeling like you constantly did have to accomplish something. 100% yes! In fact, when I first left my job, this was exactly what was foremost on my mind and I intentionally took a one-month period where I essentially vacationed and didn't "accomplish" anything. I was very proud of having escaped the rat race, and felt good about it. After that is when I started to "get back into it" and work on side projects, etc. I was still confident that taking time off was a great decision, even if I didn't come out of it with an MBA or a startup. Unfortunately, ~20 months later, things have changed. I've gotten enough negative reactions in those 20 months, and enough rejected job applications and negative conversations with recruiters regarding my employment gap, that I really start to question (even if only subconsciously) the entire situation I put myself in by quitting. I've started to lose that confidence that I initially had, and once that confidence starts to erode, it's been really hard to get back.

nikkwong 8y ago

> those same people have literally picked up their drinks and walked away. I think it might be attitude personally. I am 26 and have been making it on my own for the last two years, and I think I'm so excited about what I've been doing and sharing it that people always seem curious enough to listen. Be able to hype up what you do! Whatever it is. That's a skill for sure.

dunkelheit 8y ago

Thanks for sharing your experience. Specific information about the downsides of this path is very valuable for me (and others, I guess).

DoreenMichele 8y ago

It is sort of the job version of "All the good ones are married." A currently employed individual with talent and a great job is a highly desirable candidate. Everyone else is, at best, a bit suspicious. However, how you present that info can make a difference.

csomar 8y ago

> but when I actually say the words "I don't currently work anywhere > and am taking some time off", those same people have literally picked up their drinks and walked away. To me, this sounds like a good filter. In fact I have been using this sub-consciously with girls when they ask me about my day job. I don't answer with "serial killer", it is screaming "I'm unemployed and unsecure". But rather "I don't really work or have anything right now". Start getting rid of useless people. The sooner, the better. It is very hard to get rid of people if they are opening discussions so this time they just disappeared away.