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Micro Snitch – Know when someone spies on you

249 points by octosphere 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
et15 8y ago
How do you know when Micro Snitch spies on you? I couldn't find the source code anywhere.
- xori 8y ago
  I was about to say, this would be the greatest social hack to get paranoid people to uncover their cameras only to use this very application to spy on them.
- lucideer 8y ago
  I got MicroSnitch as part of a bundle with LittleSnitch, without really knowing what it was at the time. When I figured it out, I had the same thought as you. It's definitely not something I'd ever trust completely, not only could it be spying on you, but I also don't really trust my hardware. However, I must say, it's still very nice to have. It at least narrows the possible spying vectors, and it's nice to know immediately what apps are listening; the best example being Android Studio emulator: always listening.
  - brennebeck 8y ago
    Wouldn’t LittleSnitch be ideal in this situation to assist in checking if MicroSnitch is phoning home?
    - w1nst0nsm1th 8y ago
      Who knows if LittleSnitch is not a "social hack" by itself ?
      - djsumdog 8y ago
        I think there was a talk on breaking LittleSnitch at either Defcon or B-sides a few years back. I couldn't get in though; it was full. Whatever it was is probably fixed by now anyway.
        imdsm 8y ago
        IIRC, that issue was patched. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/03/mac_firewall_littlesnitch/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/03/mac_firewall_little...
      - brennebeck 8y ago
        Interesting thought. I would assume some audits have been done via blackbox testing of some sort (e.g. hardware monitor, routing all traffic through a proxy and logging it, etc.) by some infosec group/Co, but I also haven’t researched that.
    - lucideer 8y ago
      LittleSnitch does tell you when LittleSnitch and MicroSwitch phone home (auto-update checks only as far as I've seen), but they're the same developers so theoretically if one could fake one, one could fake both: they could be tightly coupled. So you have to implicitly trust the ObDev guys, and you have to implicitly trust the hardware, but beyond those two assumptions they function great for any other threat models. Would still be nice if they were both open source but hey: I use the open source vscode and it phones home uncontrollably all the time, so source code only benefits us so much.
      - brennebeck 8y ago
        Agreed. I replied in a sibling[0], which I think is relevant here. It seems I should definitely queue looking into what testing has been publicly done, etc. and collate that. >Would still be nice if they were both open source but hey: I use the open source vscode and it phones home uncontrollably all the time, so source code only benefits us so much Yup; definitely true. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18201533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18201533
- xoa 8y ago
  >How do you know when Micro Snitch spies on you? I couldn't find the source code anywhere. Source code isn't really necessary. Nor sufficient for that matter even if it was there, you'd need verifiable builds and an assurance of no self updating capability too, basically for certain minimal products you need some level of trust. As far as extra verifying though you'd probably start the same way you would minimally blackbox anything: stick it on a virgin test box and monitor all I/O in a controlled setting (VM could work too, though if you're super paranoid you might take into account that can be detected and runtime behavior modified). I guess you could start disassembling it and poking around its memory and such too if you wanted. But seriously, it's a Mac product, so source access everywhere should kind of obviously be off your list already. How do you know when Apple spies on you? You won't find the source code. And the answer is you blackbox it and mostly you trust that it'd get noticed at some point and Apple would get the crap sued out of them and be investigated by governments worldwide etc etc. Objective Development is a very long standing dev and has put out a far more critical long standing security product that has been used by a lot of sec people for a very long time. Sure they could be compromised in the same way any dev could, but on the lowest critical factor level they're unlikely to be the biggest risk in most users' threat model.
  - mr_overalls 8y ago
    Your healthy paranoia reminds me of a classic talk on the matter, Ken Thompson's 1984 Turing Award speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust." https://www.archive.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf https://www.archive.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p7...
    - paulgerhardt 8y ago
      The “Trusting Trust” argument comes up a lot as the final counter in this line of reasoning. It’s not and work continues. Do check out David Wheeler’s 2009 thesis on Double Diverse Compiling for instance: https://dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ https://dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- newsbinator 8y ago
  How do you know when MacOS spies on you? (or your microwave, for that matter) At some level in the chain you put your trust in an authority. Ideally the kind of authority who has more to lose than to gain from spying on their users.
drtse4 8y ago
Or just install Oversight, it's free, does the same thing. And if you want you can support the author on Patreon. https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html
- pidg 8y ago
  I like that Micro Snitch's ears light up when the mic's in use, or his eyes light up when the camera's on, without the notification. As someone who uses audio/video capture apps a lot, it's a useful way to know at a glance whether certain apps are running properly.
- skizm 8y ago
  Is this open source? Is the code on github or something?
  - drtse4 8y ago
    Not that I know, right now the only project that has been open sourced is Lulu, a firewall (https://github.com/objective-see?tab=repositories https://github.com/objective-see?tab=repositories).
- crunchiebones 8y ago
  why are these all for MacOS? are windows and linux not targeted by similar malware?
  - LeoPanthera 8y ago
    Perhaps it's because Mac hardware is fairly homogeneous, so it's relatively easy to write software that targets every model. Who knows how many cameras and audio input devices exist for generic PCs. Probably most of them use standard APIs you could interrogate, but I bet not all of them.
  - danieldk 8y ago
    Of course, other operating systems are vulnerable as well. The problem is more that for a long time the security model of Linux was that an attacker is interested in getting root access. This hasn't been true anymore since DDoS attacks, crypto mining, etc. became a thing. And in recent years, attacks have moved towards phishing, crypto lockers, etc. Though Linux for a long time still had the model that an application has the same rights as a user. As a result, virtually every app is able to use an audio device if the user has the right permissions and/or eavesdrop on other applications and limited possibilities for access control: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/Developer/AccessControl/ https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documen... Similarly, X11 applications can snoop on keystrokes, mouse events, and other applications, etc. Luckily, there has been a strong push to change things. E.g. Pipewire is going to provide access control for sound devices and cameras, Wayland provides more GUI isolation between applications, and Flatpak/Bubblewrap are introducing application sandboxing at a larger scale.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
Is this the evolution of Little Snitch? They appear to be the same company, but the Little Snitch page is still active: https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html
- drtse4 8y ago
  Nope, one is a firewall, the other one is a camera/microphone monitor.
- xoa 8y ago
  No, it's an entirely separate new product they introduced back in 2015 [1], Little Snitch is still far and away their main and most important offering. Micro Snitch does fit in with their overall company focus of monitoring application background transmissions of your data, but it's a lot more minimal in focus (and in turn very cheap). I'm not sure why it's getting an HN post now, it hasn't recently received any significant upgrades beyond some basic Mojave compatibility/Dark Mode. Actually Mojave introduced some significant new per-application protections and permission requirements for privacy related equipment, including camera and microphone [2], so I'm not sure it's as relevant now as it was at launch. I suppose that even if you grant something permission it could still be useful to have more active monitoring of usage as well, it might get compromised or look legit but then do things you don't expect. ---- 1: https://blog.obdev.at/introducing-micro-snitch/ https://blog.obdev.at/introducing-micro-snitch/ 2: This can actually "break" old software in some cases, because it'll try to access something and fail but the OS permission dialog will be hidden by some other window or not show up properly. Sometimes you can work around this manually in the Privacy pane of the Security & Privacy preference panel, where it'll list software that recently tried to access a resource but couldn't and you can check it off to allow it in the future.
kgwxd 8y ago
I would really prefer all I/O devices, including touchscreens and antennas, have physical on/off switches. 1 for in and 1 for out where possible. Even if I have to open the device to flip them. I'd like to be able to turn a phone into receive-only device without worrying about what it's broadcasting. That's probably a lot more complicated than I'm imagining, but I'd like it if lines between what's a sender and what's a receiver were more clear, instead of everything being both.
- tantalor 8y ago
  >turn a phone into receive-only device without worrying about what it's broadcasting Then all the spy software has to do is receive a signal to begin recording, saves to a buffer, and waits for you to check twitter before uploading.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    You should be able to block which apps have access to the network. I know you can do it with Windows. On iOS, you can only block cellular network access with the exception of third party keyboards where by default network access is blocked. I wish I could block apps from having any network access. Can you block network access in a per process basis with Linux or the Mac?
    - tantalor 8y ago
      Software won't help you. The premise is a phone where the spy agency has root and your only defense is "physical on/off switches" to control the I/O interfaces.
- pjc50 8y ago
  A "recieve only" phone radio would only be capable of GPS and FM radio - both the data and voice technologies require bidirectional comms to set up the channel in the first place. (This is basically "airplane mode")
  - 8y ago
wlesieutre 8y ago
FYI, it doesn't serve exactly the same purpose, but macOS Mojave requires a permission prompt for software to access the camera and mic. Of course, if a program has access to it (including Apple's own permission-exempt software) an unauthorized app may be able to use the authorized one as a route around the sandbox: https://objective-see.com/blog/blog_0x2F.html https://objective-see.com/blog/blog_0x2F.html But Mojave also added an "APP_1 wants to control APP_2" permission prompt, so I don't think that workaround is typically possible. When the malware tries to use Quicktime to run a video/audio capture, the AppleScript should trigger a "Badware.app wants to control Quicktime" permission prompt. https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335848/mojave-disable-or-control-the-some-app-name-wants-access-to-control-another https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335848/mojave-disa...
- dwighttk 8y ago
  I've seen that prompt twice since I updated and one time I could figure out why it was happening, the other time I couldn't. I'm not sure what to tell my friends who ask me about Mac stuff to do when they see that prompt.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  This is the sort of thing that should absolutely be baked in at the lowest reasonable level. Browser-level requests for camera/mic permission are obviously nice, and it's even better to see OSX offer the request to catch more cases and prevent workarounds. Requests for control transfers are also an obvious improvement; at a certain point the easiest way to curtail sandbox escapes without restricting normal functionality is to just talk to the user. Honestly, a same-circuit "camera on" light is my preferred solution to this whole question, and I'd be happy to see the mic get a separate light or be tied into the camera circuit.
  - danieldk 8y ago
    Honestly, a same-circuit "camera on" light is my preferred solution to this whole question, and I'd be happy to see the mic get a separate light or be tied into the camera circuit. The problem is that this doesn't help if you have a desktop machine, but you are not literally sitting behind it to notice the light. Software could still eavesdrop on conversations during that time. The nice thing about Micro Snitch is that it also keeps a log. Ideally, we would of course have all these levels of protection: a light, a physical switch to disconnect the camera and mic, sandboxing with camera/mic permissions, and logs like those provided by Micro Snitch.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
Can somebody recommend something analog for Windows?
- thebeefytaco 8y ago
  Sure, unplug your microphone and webcam.
- abawany 8y ago
  I use these covers for the webcam: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stock-3pcs-Webcam-Cover-Web-Camera-Privacy-Computer-0-02in-Ultra-Thin-Plastic-US/123313671811 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stock-3pcs-Webcam-Cover-Web-Camera-... . I don't have an answer for the microphone yet.
erikb 8y ago
And how do I know if this app itself is or is not spying on me?
LeicaLatte 8y ago
Push notifications would be nice.
platz 8y ago
How do I know the software is working correctly and hasn't been suppressed or spoofed by other agents.
tomc1985 8y ago
How is this any more effective than the software-controlled lights on cameras today? IIRC all the good webcam implants ignore softlights -- presumably they'd slip by whatever code is monitoring the camera here
- lostlogin 8y ago
  The log is a big feature
vtail 8y ago
If you stop for a minute to think about it, it's a very sad state of affairs that you need to buy a closed-source app for the most secure consumer operating system, and pay constant attention to its status, in hope to avoid (or detect) spying. I'm personally re-thinking my approach to security and anonymity online, esp. in light of recent news re: Facebook (Cambridge Analytica, account breach), Google (Chrome 69, increased spying), etc. I've bought a new laptop, and for the first time in 12 years it's not a Mac - it's Thinkpad X1 Carbon 6 (similar/better specs vs Macbook Pro at half the price) with OpenBSD, which takes 10 min to install, works flawlessly with Thinkpad's hardware (minus bluetooth and finger scanner) and have a security model I can trust.
- big_youth 8y ago
  I stupidly chose a high end thinkpad at my job a few years ago and I am a counting the days until I can renew and get a Mac. The hardware is shit. I've had to send it to service 3 times in the nearly 3 years I've been working with it. I just put in a new up arrow key last week because the last one broke. In it's current state only one USB port is functional. Granted I'm a consultant and do heavily traveling but it has never happened to any of my colleagues Macs. Once it was in service for week because the wifi card was disconnected. Don't even get me started about running linux on it, not a nice experience. Getting home and using my mac is such an upgrade, OS and hardware wise. Only thing I really miss is the red track button in the middle of the keyboard, that is a phenomenal feature!
  - vtail 8y ago
    Sorry to hear about your troubles. When I was a consultant (and used Thinkpads heavily at work) they worked pretty reliably with a lot of abuse, although I agree that Windows is something that (for me personally) is hard to tolerate as an OS. What's interesting about OpenBSD/Thinkpad combo is that hardware support is miles better vs. Linux on the same hardware (WiFi, snooze, etc.), from what I can tell, as many of the OpenBSD developers use them as personal machines.
  - tkfu 8y ago
    Interesting; I have basically the exact opposite experience. I had a T460P (running Linux) that I loved as my work computer, and then my company got acquired and I had to choose between a gigantic brick of a Dell or a Macbook, so I decided to try a mac for a while. I absolutely hate it: the keyboard needs to be blown out with compressed air all the damn time, plugging in external monitors is a total crapshoot, the touch bar thing just sucks, having only USB-C ports is a pain, and every fuse filesystem is insanely slow.
newman8r 8y ago
This has a similar goal (but a completely different approach) to a startup I'm currently in the process of launching - https://www.tamarin.us https://www.tamarin.us - it uses decoy websites/bait credentials to deceive intruders. Happy to give any HN users a 6 month trial if they ask. My email is in my profile.
trumped 8y ago
a hardware switch that would disable all inputs/sensors (except maybe the touch screen) on your "phone" would be nice.
richrichardsson 8y ago
Why are there still companies that don't make mobile friendly sites? Do they even bother checking their analytics?
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Visiting LinkedIn website and Android tells me LinkedIn want access to my microphone ... nothing in the web page about mic usage, just visiting the homepage ... scary. Good that Android catches this now though.
- thebeefytaco 8y ago
  I'd wager that there's some small feature you don't know about which uses audio input and it's requesting permissions too early rather than it being something malicious. I wouldn't grant it either way though.
  - godot 8y ago
    I switched to Firefox on Android recently and found that a lot of web sites with a login form, for some reasons, prompts for microphone on Firefox. This applies for major banks web sites like Wells Fargo as well. I suspect there's a common JS library being used by many sites for login forms that ask for microphone access early.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    I've heard they integrated voice messaging, so could be that, but I'd want to explain myself on a website before asking for mic access.
jeromebrock 8y ago
this one is free, has similar functionality (no association with the developer): https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html
stevespang 8y ago
only works on Apple products ?
peternicky 8y ago
I have used Little Snitch for years. It is invaluable. Micro Snitch seems to be less useful. Honest question for users of micro snitch: How many times since installing micro snitch have you been alerted that you are being spied on?

249 points by octosphere 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

et15 8y ago

How do you know when Micro Snitch spies on you? I couldn't find the source code anywhere.

xori 8y ago
I was about to say, this would be the greatest social hack to get paranoid people to uncover their cameras only to use this very application to spy on them.
lucideer 8y ago
I got MicroSnitch as part of a bundle with LittleSnitch, without really knowing what it was at the time. When I figured it out, I had the same thought as you. It's definitely not something I'd ever trust completely, not only could it be spying on you, but I also don't really trust my hardware. However, I must say, it's still very nice to have. It at least narrows the possible spying vectors, and it's nice to know immediately what apps are listening; the best example being Android Studio emulator: always listening.
- brennebeck 8y ago
  Wouldn’t LittleSnitch be ideal in this situation to assist in checking if MicroSnitch is phoning home?
  - w1nst0nsm1th 8y ago
    Who knows if LittleSnitch is not a "social hack" by itself ?
    - djsumdog 8y ago
      I think there was a talk on breaking LittleSnitch at either Defcon or B-sides a few years back. I couldn't get in though; it was full. Whatever it was is probably fixed by now anyway.
      - imdsm 8y ago
        IIRC, that issue was patched. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/03/mac_firewall_littlesnitch/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/03/mac_firewall_little...
    - brennebeck 8y ago
      Interesting thought. I would assume some audits have been done via blackbox testing of some sort (e.g. hardware monitor, routing all traffic through a proxy and logging it, etc.) by some infosec group/Co, but I also haven’t researched that.
  - lucideer 8y ago
    LittleSnitch does tell you when LittleSnitch and MicroSwitch phone home (auto-update checks only as far as I've seen), but they're the same developers so theoretically if one could fake one, one could fake both: they could be tightly coupled. So you have to implicitly trust the ObDev guys, and you have to implicitly trust the hardware, but beyond those two assumptions they function great for any other threat models. Would still be nice if they were both open source but hey: I use the open source vscode and it phones home uncontrollably all the time, so source code only benefits us so much.
    - brennebeck 8y ago
      Agreed. I replied in a sibling[0], which I think is relevant here. It seems I should definitely queue looking into what testing has been publicly done, etc. and collate that. >Would still be nice if they were both open source but hey: I use the open source vscode and it phones home uncontrollably all the time, so source code only benefits us so much Yup; definitely true. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18201533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18201533
xoa 8y ago
>How do you know when Micro Snitch spies on you? I couldn't find the source code anywhere. Source code isn't really necessary. Nor sufficient for that matter even if it was there, you'd need verifiable builds and an assurance of no self updating capability too, basically for certain minimal products you need some level of trust. As far as extra verifying though you'd probably start the same way you would minimally blackbox anything: stick it on a virgin test box and monitor all I/O in a controlled setting (VM could work too, though if you're super paranoid you might take into account that can be detected and runtime behavior modified). I guess you could start disassembling it and poking around its memory and such too if you wanted. But seriously, it's a Mac product, so source access everywhere should kind of obviously be off your list already. How do you know when Apple spies on you? You won't find the source code. And the answer is you blackbox it and mostly you trust that it'd get noticed at some point and Apple would get the crap sued out of them and be investigated by governments worldwide etc etc. Objective Development is a very long standing dev and has put out a far more critical long standing security product that has been used by a lot of sec people for a very long time. Sure they could be compromised in the same way any dev could, but on the lowest critical factor level they're unlikely to be the biggest risk in most users' threat model.
- mr_overalls 8y ago
  Your healthy paranoia reminds me of a classic talk on the matter, Ken Thompson's 1984 Turing Award speech "Reflections on Trusting Trust." https://www.archive.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf https://www.archive.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p7...
  - paulgerhardt 8y ago
    The “Trusting Trust” argument comes up a lot as the final counter in this line of reasoning. It’s not and work continues. Do check out David Wheeler’s 2009 thesis on Double Diverse Compiling for instance: https://dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/ https://dwheeler.com/trusting-trust/
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
newsbinator 8y ago
How do you know when MacOS spies on you? (or your microwave, for that matter) At some level in the chain you put your trust in an authority. Ideally the kind of authority who has more to lose than to gain from spying on their users.

drtse4 8y ago

Or just install Oversight, it's free, does the same thing. And if you want you can support the author on Patreon. https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html

pidg 8y ago
I like that Micro Snitch's ears light up when the mic's in use, or his eyes light up when the camera's on, without the notification. As someone who uses audio/video capture apps a lot, it's a useful way to know at a glance whether certain apps are running properly.
skizm 8y ago
Is this open source? Is the code on github or something?
- drtse4 8y ago
  Not that I know, right now the only project that has been open sourced is Lulu, a firewall (https://github.com/objective-see?tab=repositories https://github.com/objective-see?tab=repositories).
crunchiebones 8y ago
why are these all for MacOS? are windows and linux not targeted by similar malware?
- LeoPanthera 8y ago
  Perhaps it's because Mac hardware is fairly homogeneous, so it's relatively easy to write software that targets every model. Who knows how many cameras and audio input devices exist for generic PCs. Probably most of them use standard APIs you could interrogate, but I bet not all of them.
- danieldk 8y ago
  Of course, other operating systems are vulnerable as well. The problem is more that for a long time the security model of Linux was that an attacker is interested in getting root access. This hasn't been true anymore since DDoS attacks, crypto mining, etc. became a thing. And in recent years, attacks have moved towards phishing, crypto lockers, etc. Though Linux for a long time still had the model that an application has the same rights as a user. As a result, virtually every app is able to use an audio device if the user has the right permissions and/or eavesdrop on other applications and limited possibilities for access control: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documentation/Developer/AccessControl/ https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Documen... Similarly, X11 applications can snoop on keystrokes, mouse events, and other applications, etc. Luckily, there has been a strong push to change things. E.g. Pipewire is going to provide access control for sound devices and cameras, Wayland provides more GUI isolation between applications, and Flatpak/Bubblewrap are introducing application sandboxing at a larger scale.

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

Is this the evolution of Little Snitch? They appear to be the same company, but the Little Snitch page is still active: https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html https://www.obdev.at/products/littlesnitch/index.html

drtse4 8y ago
Nope, one is a firewall, the other one is a camera/microphone monitor.
xoa 8y ago
No, it's an entirely separate new product they introduced back in 2015 [1], Little Snitch is still far and away their main and most important offering. Micro Snitch does fit in with their overall company focus of monitoring application background transmissions of your data, but it's a lot more minimal in focus (and in turn very cheap). I'm not sure why it's getting an HN post now, it hasn't recently received any significant upgrades beyond some basic Mojave compatibility/Dark Mode. Actually Mojave introduced some significant new per-application protections and permission requirements for privacy related equipment, including camera and microphone [2], so I'm not sure it's as relevant now as it was at launch. I suppose that even if you grant something permission it could still be useful to have more active monitoring of usage as well, it might get compromised or look legit but then do things you don't expect. ---- 1: https://blog.obdev.at/introducing-micro-snitch/ https://blog.obdev.at/introducing-micro-snitch/ 2: This can actually "break" old software in some cases, because it'll try to access something and fail but the OS permission dialog will be hidden by some other window or not show up properly. Sometimes you can work around this manually in the Privacy pane of the Security & Privacy preference panel, where it'll list software that recently tried to access a resource but couldn't and you can check it off to allow it in the future.

kgwxd 8y ago

I would really prefer all I/O devices, including touchscreens and antennas, have physical on/off switches. 1 for in and 1 for out where possible. Even if I have to open the device to flip them. I'd like to be able to turn a phone into receive-only device without worrying about what it's broadcasting. That's probably a lot more complicated than I'm imagining, but I'd like it if lines between what's a sender and what's a receiver were more clear, instead of everything being both.

tantalor 8y ago
>turn a phone into receive-only device without worrying about what it's broadcasting Then all the spy software has to do is receive a signal to begin recording, saves to a buffer, and waits for you to check twitter before uploading.
- scarface74 8y ago
  You should be able to block which apps have access to the network. I know you can do it with Windows. On iOS, you can only block cellular network access with the exception of third party keyboards where by default network access is blocked. I wish I could block apps from having any network access. Can you block network access in a per process basis with Linux or the Mac?
  - tantalor 8y ago
    Software won't help you. The premise is a phone where the spy agency has root and your only defense is "physical on/off switches" to control the I/O interfaces.
pjc50 8y ago
A "recieve only" phone radio would only be capable of GPS and FM radio - both the data and voice technologies require bidirectional comms to set up the channel in the first place. (This is basically "airplane mode")
- 8y ago

wlesieutre 8y ago

FYI, it doesn't serve exactly the same purpose, but macOS Mojave requires a permission prompt for software to access the camera and mic. Of course, if a program has access to it (including Apple's own permission-exempt software) an unauthorized app may be able to use the authorized one as a route around the sandbox: https://objective-see.com/blog/blog_0x2F.html https://objective-see.com/blog/blog_0x2F.html But Mojave also added an "APP_1 wants to control APP_2" permission prompt, so I don't think that workaround is typically possible. When the malware tries to use Quicktime to run a video/audio capture, the AppleScript should trigger a "Badware.app wants to control Quicktime" permission prompt. https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335848/mojave-disable-or-control-the-some-app-name-wants-access-to-control-another https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/335848/mojave-disa...

dwighttk 8y ago
I've seen that prompt twice since I updated and one time I could figure out why it was happening, the other time I couldn't. I'm not sure what to tell my friends who ask me about Mac stuff to do when they see that prompt.
Bartweiss 8y ago
This is the sort of thing that should absolutely be baked in at the lowest reasonable level. Browser-level requests for camera/mic permission are obviously nice, and it's even better to see OSX offer the request to catch more cases and prevent workarounds. Requests for control transfers are also an obvious improvement; at a certain point the easiest way to curtail sandbox escapes without restricting normal functionality is to just talk to the user. Honestly, a same-circuit "camera on" light is my preferred solution to this whole question, and I'd be happy to see the mic get a separate light or be tied into the camera circuit.
- danieldk 8y ago
  Honestly, a same-circuit "camera on" light is my preferred solution to this whole question, and I'd be happy to see the mic get a separate light or be tied into the camera circuit. The problem is that this doesn't help if you have a desktop machine, but you are not literally sitting behind it to notice the light. Software could still eavesdrop on conversations during that time. The nice thing about Micro Snitch is that it also keeps a log. Ideally, we would of course have all these levels of protection: a light, a physical switch to disconnect the camera and mic, sandboxing with camera/mic permissions, and logs like those provided by Micro Snitch.

CaptainZapp 8y ago

Can somebody recommend something analog for Windows?

thebeefytaco 8y ago
Sure, unplug your microphone and webcam.
abawany 8y ago
I use these covers for the webcam: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stock-3pcs-Webcam-Cover-Web-Camera-Privacy-Computer-0-02in-Ultra-Thin-Plastic-US/123313671811 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stock-3pcs-Webcam-Cover-Web-Camera-... . I don't have an answer for the microphone yet.

erikb 8y ago

And how do I know if this app itself is or is not spying on me?

LeicaLatte 8y ago

Push notifications would be nice.

platz 8y ago

How do I know the software is working correctly and hasn't been suppressed or spoofed by other agents.

tomc1985 8y ago

How is this any more effective than the software-controlled lights on cameras today? IIRC all the good webcam implants ignore softlights -- presumably they'd slip by whatever code is monitoring the camera here

lostlogin 8y ago
The log is a big feature

vtail 8y ago

If you stop for a minute to think about it, it's a very sad state of affairs that you need to buy a closed-source app for the most secure consumer operating system, and pay constant attention to its status, in hope to avoid (or detect) spying. I'm personally re-thinking my approach to security and anonymity online, esp. in light of recent news re: Facebook (Cambridge Analytica, account breach), Google (Chrome 69, increased spying), etc. I've bought a new laptop, and for the first time in 12 years it's not a Mac - it's Thinkpad X1 Carbon 6 (similar/better specs vs Macbook Pro at half the price) with OpenBSD, which takes 10 min to install, works flawlessly with Thinkpad's hardware (minus bluetooth and finger scanner) and have a security model I can trust.

big_youth 8y ago
I stupidly chose a high end thinkpad at my job a few years ago and I am a counting the days until I can renew and get a Mac. The hardware is shit. I've had to send it to service 3 times in the nearly 3 years I've been working with it. I just put in a new up arrow key last week because the last one broke. In it's current state only one USB port is functional. Granted I'm a consultant and do heavily traveling but it has never happened to any of my colleagues Macs. Once it was in service for week because the wifi card was disconnected. Don't even get me started about running linux on it, not a nice experience. Getting home and using my mac is such an upgrade, OS and hardware wise. Only thing I really miss is the red track button in the middle of the keyboard, that is a phenomenal feature!
- vtail 8y ago
  Sorry to hear about your troubles. When I was a consultant (and used Thinkpads heavily at work) they worked pretty reliably with a lot of abuse, although I agree that Windows is something that (for me personally) is hard to tolerate as an OS. What's interesting about OpenBSD/Thinkpad combo is that hardware support is miles better vs. Linux on the same hardware (WiFi, snooze, etc.), from what I can tell, as many of the OpenBSD developers use them as personal machines.
- tkfu 8y ago
  Interesting; I have basically the exact opposite experience. I had a T460P (running Linux) that I loved as my work computer, and then my company got acquired and I had to choose between a gigantic brick of a Dell or a Macbook, so I decided to try a mac for a while. I absolutely hate it: the keyboard needs to be blown out with compressed air all the damn time, plugging in external monitors is a total crapshoot, the touch bar thing just sucks, having only USB-C ports is a pain, and every fuse filesystem is insanely slow.

newman8r 8y ago

This has a similar goal (but a completely different approach) to a startup I'm currently in the process of launching - https://www.tamarin.us https://www.tamarin.us - it uses decoy websites/bait credentials to deceive intruders. Happy to give any HN users a 6 month trial if they ask. My email is in my profile.

trumped 8y ago

a hardware switch that would disable all inputs/sensors (except maybe the touch screen) on your "phone" would be nice.

richrichardsson 8y ago

Why are there still companies that don't make mobile friendly sites? Do they even bother checking their analytics?

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

Visiting LinkedIn website and Android tells me LinkedIn want access to my microphone ... nothing in the web page about mic usage, just visiting the homepage ... scary. Good that Android catches this now though.

thebeefytaco 8y ago
I'd wager that there's some small feature you don't know about which uses audio input and it's requesting permissions too early rather than it being something malicious. I wouldn't grant it either way though.
- godot 8y ago
  I switched to Firefox on Android recently and found that a lot of web sites with a login form, for some reasons, prompts for microphone on Firefox. This applies for major banks web sites like Wells Fargo as well. I suspect there's a common JS library being used by many sites for login forms that ask for microphone access early.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  I've heard they integrated voice messaging, so could be that, but I'd want to explain myself on a website before asking for mic access.

jeromebrock 8y ago

this one is free, has similar functionality (no association with the developer): https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html https://objective-see.com/products/oversight.html

stevespang 8y ago

only works on Apple products ?

peternicky 8y ago

I have used Little Snitch for years. It is invaluable. Micro Snitch seems to be less useful. Honest question for users of micro snitch: How many times since installing micro snitch have you been alerted that you are being spied on?