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IMO the title is a little misleading - I read 'EU drops rule' as that the EU had removed a rule / cancelled it. Should probably be something like "EU states th
by mrmondo 8y ago
IMO the title is a little misleading - I read 'EU drops rule' as that the EU had removed a rule / cancelled it.
Should probably be something like "EU states that telemetry data collected from self-driving cars may be subject to copyright protection".
Then the bigger discussion should probably be - 'What is telemetry data?'.
If telemetry data is _any_ data collected from a car that could be remotely accessed, then in theory I'd argue that digital oil sensor readings, digital odometer readings and digital tyre pressure readings are all telemetry data if they are stored in a place that can be remotely read.
If that's the case - it could lead to the situation where car manufacturers demand (by law) that you are only allowed to service your car with them and not be a mechanic of your choice.
That may start as a small inconvenience that luxury car owners may be able to afford but as those features come to lower end models it may hurt average or less well off consumers.
Further more, what happened to 'facts' not being copyrightable (generally speaking).
- tjoff 8y agoIf I take a picture with my camera the camera manufacturer will not get the copyright. How on earth are car manufacturers gonna be the ones that get the copyright? (I'm sure you are correct but it feels absurd) Will software companies claim copyright on logs?
- mrmondo 8y ago(I'm not sure I'm correct - IANAL!)
- slededit 8y agoYou'll sign a contract when buying the car.
- altec3 8y agoWhat if you buy it used?
- tjoff 8y agoOr let a friend drive?
- mikestew 8y agoYour friend, or the new used car owner, will get to push a button every time the car starts, agreeing to the contract. Yeah, yeah, unenforcable, blah, blah. You want to go to the mall, or not?
- thrower123 8y agoIf we have EU cookie banners every time we turn the key in the ignition, I give up. I'm going to find some 80s pickups in Arizona or something and start stockpiling them.
- madisp 8y agoalready true for some models with some features like Nissan Leaf with the remote control app - https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/4i4f3s/how_do_i_get_rid_of_this_message_every_time_i/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leaf/comments/4i4f3s/how_do_i_get_r...
- mikestew 8y agoNot quite true as I stated it. You can drive around all you want with that screen showing without ever pressing any buttons. Source: our '11 Leaf. (Though I'll admit that that annoying screen was at least a partial inspiration for my original comment.)
- tjoff 8y agoCan you press decline? I can't read what the other button says.
- 8y ago
- agitator 8y agoI don't think this is a fair comparison. It's like saying all the work I do on my computer belongs to apple. Which doesn't make sense. But apple does keep logs and telemetry of performance and crashes and uses that to improve it's products. With self driving cars, and other devices (like apple electronics) the logs they keep give you really really good insight into what sensors, techniques, and algorithmic approaches they are taking to problems, and those directly expose proprietary information. I would argue that this information entirely belongs to those companies (with an agreement to send this data to their servers). Also most AI and self driving companies use the data collected by their existing fleet to further improve AI systems in these vehicles. The competitive advantage of most of these companies is how much data, with what sensors they are able to collect. Making that information public will have a huge negative impact on the tech and AI industry, essentially pulling the carpet out from underneath everyone.
- dwiel 8y agoThey ask permission before they transfer that telemetry data. An important distinction.
- TomMarius 8y agoBecause it potentially contains private information, telemetry data from cars doesn't have to.
- tjoff 8y agoDriving location and driving patterns is private information. Especially if video and/or lidar information is present. This is doubly so when driving on private property or in sensitive areas that forbid photography.
- TomMarius 8y agoSure it is, but the telemetry data doesn't have to contain it to be useful.
- Joky 8y agoBut your camera manufacturer may log on a dedicate flash memory inside the camera some logs about pixel defects, and claim that they copyright these data.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- CaptainZapp 8y agoActually if you use your camera for video it's free for personal use. If you use the footage in any commercial manner, though, the MPEG LA [1] may want to have a word with you. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG_LA
- _0ffh 8y agoFirst, this analogy is broken, in that the MPEG LA is not the manufacturer of your camera. Second, you may still use that footage in any commercial manner, royality free. At worst, you need to transcode it into any open standard. The footage is always yours, only the encoding might be encumbered.
- tjoff 8y agoGood point, though a bit unrelated? MPEG LA won't get copyright on my material. It's just that the format used is patent encumbered. I guess I could just transcode it to a different format and be safe?
- ivankelly 8y agothis is personal data, GDPR gives you the right to get a full dump of it.
- Angostura 8y agoAnd possibly withhold consent when you buy the car. That would be an interesting decision for a salesperson eyeing their commission.
- ivankelly 8y agoIt would give you the unpersonalised experience then, where the car only knows how to drive in carparks in palo alto.
- kjhkjh45 8y agoGDPR gives both parties access to the data which is how it should be. That way commerce can learn and so can the individual. Enlightenment for both.
- Someone 8y agoWhether you can get a dump under the GDPR is separate from who holds the copyright, and even if you can, I think a strong argument can be made that not all data that such a car collects need be personal data. Where your car was, what passengers the car detected, whether they were attentive, etc, to me certainly are personal data, but a log of, say, oil temperature or vibration in the engine may not be personal data, certainly not if the manufacturer immediately aggregates it across thousands of cars. Also, this case doesn’t (as of yet) declare that data is copyrightable; it just removes a clause that explicitly states it isn’t.
- dwiel 8y agoYou can extract out a lot of information if you want to though. Perhaps vibration + temperature over time leaks information about where you are: gravel road or not, pot hole or not, hit the curb pulling into your driveway vs your friends driveway, etc. Its hard to not leak data now that machine learning can look for the patterns.
- shostack 8y ago>"That may start as a small inconvenience that luxury car owners may be able to afford but as those features come to lower end models it may hurt average or less well off consumers." Longer-term, I wonder if that isn't what will ultimately happen anyway if the concept of car ownership sufficiently changes to be predominantly renting from a pool of vehicles, or a model where you "own" it, but lease it out to the pool.
- b_tterc_p 8y agoHypothetically I think it may make sense to limit arbitrary mechanic shops from repairing driverless cars. If they mess something up that causes the software to malfunction, then the fault of blame gets even more obscure. I would instead hope that such a change would be coupled with reduced car ownership.
- omeid2 8y agoYou're making the assumption that the dealerships/manufacturers' mechanics are more competent than independent mechanics. I don't believe that is necessarily the case.
- henrieri 8y agoThe case is about who would be getting the blame. If manufacturer's mechanics mess up it would be definetly manufacturer's fault.
- michaelmrose 8y agoIt makes more sense for most us to just make what you are suggesting illegal.
- omegabravo 8y agoThe same could be said about a mechanic repairing your brakes. The current system is acceptable to me.
- thecatspaw 8y agoIt doesnt make sense to require the manufacturer to repair it, but the law could/should demand qualifications of the mechanic
- ofcrpls 8y agoThis seems like a direction fallout of the VDA's position paper from 2016[0] [0]https://www.vda.de/dam/vda/Medien/EN/Themen/Innovation-und-Technik/Vernetzung/VDA-Position-Access-to-the-vehicle-and-vehicle-generated-data-Sept-2016/VDA%20Position%20Access%20to%20the%20vehicle%20and%20vehicle%20generated%20data%20Sept%202016.pdf https://www.vda.de/dam/vda/Medien/EN/Themen/Innovation-und-T...