4 ms·

I'm surprised at the generally positive approach in HN toward Apple's recent announcements. Apple is about to have control over the user's system no one since m

by nir 16y ago

cubicle67 16y ago
I think you may be overreacting a bit here, although we won't know until a few years down the track Apple aren't about to "move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden", but rather they're about to add an optional place to purchase apps. It's an addition that I think may have some benefit for some users and smaller indie developers. I can see it becoming the way most people purchase most of their apps in time, but I can never see it becoming the only way to do so on the mac. They also haven't dropped support for either Flash or Java. The new MBAs aren't shipping with Flash installed; so what? OSX is the only OS I'm aware of that does ship with Flash. Java? Well, Java's not going anywhere either.
- kls 16y ago
  Right, I think Steve is smart enough to not follow so many others down that path in history. A completely closed system would cut developers off at the knees. Which would put Apple on the hook to develop every piece of software for their ecosystem. There is no way the could keep up with the idea factory that is the masses. I think rather Apple sees an opportunity to provide a sales channel where they get a cut of other people work by acting as the distributor and in turn do things like guarantee that the app if free of malicious actions and compatible with OSX systems. As for Java, I knew this one was coming, Jobs and Ellison are good friends and Apple and Oracle are the only two companies that either are not at war with, they really don't compete in each other spaces. So I think Jobs is comfortable with Oracle providing the JVM for their platform. I am sure that Steve has resigned any worry in his head that Java is going to achieve desktop dominance so it is not a Trojan horse to his platform where it will be used to provide OSX apps in preference over the native OSX development technologies. Giving it back to Oracle means that the developers get the latest JVM at the same time as everyone else not waiting up to a year as the cycle comes around itself. I think it is a good move on both companies parts. I just wonder why Steve always has to be so vague. I think his showmanship has become so ingrained that he just can't come right out and say it everything has to be a big announcement. I guess I cant fault him, it's his trademark and has served him well.
- akmiller 16y ago
  I stated this in another thread, but I will restate here because it seems appropriate. The App Store will most definitely become the most popular way to find and install applications. Therefore if your app is not in the app store it may as well not exist. The regular user is going to search for the best application within that garden to fulfill their needs which puts all developers at the mercy of Apple to get their app in the store. I wonder that if this model gains popularity on the desktop, how long it will be before users click that app store icon to find an application they need vs. click the browser icon to find a service on the web that may fit that need. With strong shift towards web based apps over the past few years it's interesting that a move like this may re-invigorate the desktop app!
  - protomyth 16y ago
    I think that is true for most indy apps, but stuff from Adobe or Microsoft will be fine. I also expect verticals to continue to do fine (dedicated sales staff and industry rep). If your an small developer then you probably should be in the app store. People do want native apps (for a bit of humor http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/10/21/beltzner http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/10/21/beltzner )because connectivity is not 100% and the fit, finish, and speed of native apps are better. I don't think your wrong, I guess twitter clients kind of prove the point.
alanh 16y ago
When I read comments like yours, I just want to point at a Terminal.app prompt. Or Bootcamp. You can do anything you want to with a Mac, and there’s no actual indication that’s changing; just FUD.
- nir 16y ago
  I'm writing this on my 3rd Macbook. I don't have any reason to spread FUD against Apple. I think dropping Java (there isn't currently a real alternative to Apple's) is a strong indication. The App Store policies are a strong indicator, and restricting iPhone/iPad development environments is a strong indicator. You may be able to do what you want on your own machine given enough knowledge/time. The issue arises when a business based on a Mac Java app becomes redundant when Apple feels like it, or when it will become very hard to make a living selling an app Apple doesn't feel is right for the Store. Once upon a time there was a company called Microsoft who controlled a popular OS. People who called themselves "hackers" generally didn't like it, since they asserted this power to control the product space as well, changing APIs or bundling software to eliminate competition. Apple has gone beyond Microsoft's wildest dreams, and are on track become comparably widespread - I don't think they get a pass just because the standby light has the same frequency as a human heartbeat.
  - jimbojohn 16y ago
    Oracle will provide the JVM, if steve's email is any indication.
    - mironathetin 16y ago
      why should Oracle do that? Do you know any bank or company that runs Oracle on Macs??????? I don't see any reason for Oracle to maintain java on this platform. We understand that oracle only moves its butt, if moving the butt makes cash. Does anybody know whether they make cash out of java on Macs? Even if Oracle would provide java, would anybody put so much trust into Oracle, to base the future of his/her software company onto this? Apple again has proven to be unreliable. I think, this is a serious blow either for java or for Apple itself. Probably we may have to fall back to c, fortran or delphi?
robomc 16y ago
I left OSX for Ubuntu earlier this year because I felt this was the direction things were going, and I didn't want to wake up on kid's computer in 3 years. BUT you could argue that the announced OSX features are more or less Ubuntu Software Center + some bits of Gnome Shell.
- nir 16y ago
  Definitely - but watching Apple's current iPhone/iPad policies, which direction seems more likely?
  - ugh 16y ago
    It is very unlikely that Photoshop will be available on the App Store and there is no way Apple is going to ditch Photoshop (or many other applications which are unlikely to ever end up on the App Store like Office and AutoCAD, both of which Apple lauded in their press event). The status quo is powerful. There was no status quo on phones, that’s why Apple could just come up with one. It would not be in Apple’s best interest to change the rules so radically on the Mac. It don’t know what Apple will do in a decade but I’m fairly confident that there will be no rapid change in what Apple allows you to install on your Mac. Steve Jobs already said that you will be able to install whatever you want on OS X Lion which keeps OS X safe at least until about summer 2013. I think it’s a bit premature to complain now.
shareme 16y ago
I think yo are confusing desktop and mobile environments.. Steve Jobs did not outlaw manual installs of any software on desktop Macs..he just made the MacApp store feel Boutique or exclusive to consumers..
DougBTX 16y ago
If the forum was still called "Start-up News", I don't think you'd be able to point out a contradiction. The App Store has made it significantly easier to sell software made by small developers to iOS users, they are about to make it really easy to sell to Mac users too. It's a business opportunity. The worst you can say about it is that commercial software is catching up with ease of distribution of free software. Hey, you've got 90 days to ship a competing app store for the Mac. Valve has already done so with Steam on Windows and Macs, it isn't insurmountable. What's going to make your one better than theirs?
palewery 16y ago
Have you used VMware Fusion 3.0. It is quite fast and integrates well with OS X and MBP hardware. I use a MBP as my workstation and a Fedora VM for development in the MBP.
- kls 16y ago
  I dumped it for Virtual Box. As good of a product and free.
  - palewery 16y ago
    I wondered if they had some decent competition. The upgrade from fusion 2.0 to 3.0 was $10.
    - kls 16y ago
      If the upgrade would have been $10 when I made the decision I would have staid, but it was not when I decided to make the switch. Oh well, I have moved on now.
pilom 16y ago
How is the Mac app store any different from Ubuntu's? With both platforms, you can install other programs not in the store. Both of them automate the install and update process for applications. Both of them (now) allow you to pay for apps. I'm confused by people being upset with the mac app store when FOSS has been doing the same thing for years with package management software. Heck, Cydia is even based off of a *nix package manager. I don't want to call it fanboyism because I know you have other reasons for disliking their new app store but after seeing how well it works in Ubuntu, why could this possibly be a bad idea?
- mirkules 16y ago
  I never used Ubuntu's store, so my natural question is: do applications have to get approved in Ubuntu's store? If the answer is"no," it may be the biggest difference with the most impact on end-users and developers.
pohl 16y ago
What is it about your personal definition of the word "hacker" that leads you to believe that all such people would arrive at the same opinion about this? This is a popular, growing, and interesting platform. It has APIs, languages, and tools. It's Unix and has a CLI. There is money in them thar hills...why wouldn't there be room for more than one hackerly opinion on the matter?
roqetman 16y ago
You can still install it yourself... both Windows and Linux don't come with it already installed. I think that that is Jobs's point - if they bundled it, it was out of date by ship-time.
protomyth 16y ago
From someone who works with a OS X software company, the announcement was great. I am really not worried about OS X being closed because of development needs and the server version. Not shipping Flash on the MacBook Air was pretty understandable given the noise Adobe made about the OS X 10.6 release version of Flash. The whole build & release cycle seems to take longer than it takes Adobe to patch Flash. So, it is probably a good thing to train users to go to Adobe's site and get the newest Flash. Dropping an Apple version of Java will probably be a good decision and actually help Java developers. If Oracle is actually taking over then OS X will most probably (given Oracle's catalog of OS X software) be at the same version as all the other platforms instead of the current delay.
- slantyyz 16y ago
  Another reason to not ship Flash is that by the time you install the OS, the version of Flash is usually outdated and you've got to install the update anyways. Every time I reinstall an OS, Mac or otherwise, I find myself having to update Flash. If I've got to do that, I may as well install from scratch.
matwood 16y ago
I'm surprised at the generally positive approach in HN toward Apple's recent announcements. Apple is about to have control over the user's system no one since mainframe-era IBM ever came close to. Not only they're about to move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden, they are showing they can drop support for major technologies like Java or Flash if they feel like it. This is not good news for anyone but Apple, certainly not anyone calling themselves "Hacker". The problem is that you're jumping to some serious conclusions. Nothing about the mac app store demo showed banning of applications from a different source. You're assuming that's their plan, but I don't think it is. The app store makes perfect sense from an end user perspective. One of the great things about linux are the package managers. A central location with lots of software that I can install from AND get updates from. There is no flash on the iPhone for many well document reasons, so I'll guess you're referring to no flash on the new MBA. Given that any version of flash is out of date and a huge security hole as soon as it's installed, it makes complete sense to force users to go get the latest version when they buy their machine. It wasn't long ago that the shipping version of flash on osx had a huge security hole that made Apple look bad. What I would like to see if Apple let Adobe put their flash player into the new mac app store. This lets Adobe manage the updates like any other 3rd party developer. As a 'hacker' I look at what is. Right now my MBP works great and has all the support I need. If Apple does end up going down the path of locking out all other software and/or the ability to hack and develop I'll switch back to linux. At this point though, it's much ado about nothing.
j_baker 16y ago
1. Unless the Mac app store takes away your ability to install apps that aren't in it, I wouldn't be too worried. 2. They're not dropping support for Java, they're just not making it anymore. If Oracle makes a version of Java for the Mac, then it will be supported. If not, then losing Java must not be that big a deal right?

by nir 16y ago

cubicle67 16y ago

I think you may be overreacting a bit here, although we won't know until a few years down the track Apple aren't about to "move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden", but rather they're about to add an optional place to purchase apps. It's an addition that I think may have some benefit for some users and smaller indie developers. I can see it becoming the way most people purchase most of their apps in time, but I can never see it becoming the only way to do so on the mac. They also haven't dropped support for either Flash or Java. The new MBAs aren't shipping with Flash installed; so what? OSX is the only OS I'm aware of that does ship with Flash. Java? Well, Java's not going anywhere either.

kls 16y ago
Right, I think Steve is smart enough to not follow so many others down that path in history. A completely closed system would cut developers off at the knees. Which would put Apple on the hook to develop every piece of software for their ecosystem. There is no way the could keep up with the idea factory that is the masses. I think rather Apple sees an opportunity to provide a sales channel where they get a cut of other people work by acting as the distributor and in turn do things like guarantee that the app if free of malicious actions and compatible with OSX systems. As for Java, I knew this one was coming, Jobs and Ellison are good friends and Apple and Oracle are the only two companies that either are not at war with, they really don't compete in each other spaces. So I think Jobs is comfortable with Oracle providing the JVM for their platform. I am sure that Steve has resigned any worry in his head that Java is going to achieve desktop dominance so it is not a Trojan horse to his platform where it will be used to provide OSX apps in preference over the native OSX development technologies. Giving it back to Oracle means that the developers get the latest JVM at the same time as everyone else not waiting up to a year as the cycle comes around itself. I think it is a good move on both companies parts. I just wonder why Steve always has to be so vague. I think his showmanship has become so ingrained that he just can't come right out and say it everything has to be a big announcement. I guess I cant fault him, it's his trademark and has served him well.
akmiller 16y ago
I stated this in another thread, but I will restate here because it seems appropriate. The App Store will most definitely become the most popular way to find and install applications. Therefore if your app is not in the app store it may as well not exist. The regular user is going to search for the best application within that garden to fulfill their needs which puts all developers at the mercy of Apple to get their app in the store. I wonder that if this model gains popularity on the desktop, how long it will be before users click that app store icon to find an application they need vs. click the browser icon to find a service on the web that may fit that need. With strong shift towards web based apps over the past few years it's interesting that a move like this may re-invigorate the desktop app!
- protomyth 16y ago
  I think that is true for most indy apps, but stuff from Adobe or Microsoft will be fine. I also expect verticals to continue to do fine (dedicated sales staff and industry rep). If your an small developer then you probably should be in the app store. People do want native apps (for a bit of humor http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/10/21/beltzner http://daringfireball.net/linked/2010/10/21/beltzner )because connectivity is not 100% and the fit, finish, and speed of native apps are better. I don't think your wrong, I guess twitter clients kind of prove the point.

alanh 16y ago

When I read comments like yours, I just want to point at a Terminal.app prompt. Or Bootcamp. You can do anything you want to with a Mac, and there’s no actual indication that’s changing; just FUD.

nir 16y ago
I'm writing this on my 3rd Macbook. I don't have any reason to spread FUD against Apple. I think dropping Java (there isn't currently a real alternative to Apple's) is a strong indication. The App Store policies are a strong indicator, and restricting iPhone/iPad development environments is a strong indicator. You may be able to do what you want on your own machine given enough knowledge/time. The issue arises when a business based on a Mac Java app becomes redundant when Apple feels like it, or when it will become very hard to make a living selling an app Apple doesn't feel is right for the Store. Once upon a time there was a company called Microsoft who controlled a popular OS. People who called themselves "hackers" generally didn't like it, since they asserted this power to control the product space as well, changing APIs or bundling software to eliminate competition. Apple has gone beyond Microsoft's wildest dreams, and are on track become comparably widespread - I don't think they get a pass just because the standby light has the same frequency as a human heartbeat.
- jimbojohn 16y ago
  Oracle will provide the JVM, if steve's email is any indication.
  - mironathetin 16y ago
    why should Oracle do that? Do you know any bank or company that runs Oracle on Macs??????? I don't see any reason for Oracle to maintain java on this platform. We understand that oracle only moves its butt, if moving the butt makes cash. Does anybody know whether they make cash out of java on Macs? Even if Oracle would provide java, would anybody put so much trust into Oracle, to base the future of his/her software company onto this? Apple again has proven to be unreliable. I think, this is a serious blow either for java or for Apple itself. Probably we may have to fall back to c, fortran or delphi?

robomc 16y ago

I left OSX for Ubuntu earlier this year because I felt this was the direction things were going, and I didn't want to wake up on kid's computer in 3 years. BUT you could argue that the announced OSX features are more or less Ubuntu Software Center + some bits of Gnome Shell.

nir 16y ago
Definitely - but watching Apple's current iPhone/iPad policies, which direction seems more likely?
- ugh 16y ago
  It is very unlikely that Photoshop will be available on the App Store and there is no way Apple is going to ditch Photoshop (or many other applications which are unlikely to ever end up on the App Store like Office and AutoCAD, both of which Apple lauded in their press event). The status quo is powerful. There was no status quo on phones, that’s why Apple could just come up with one. It would not be in Apple’s best interest to change the rules so radically on the Mac. It don’t know what Apple will do in a decade but I’m fairly confident that there will be no rapid change in what Apple allows you to install on your Mac. Steve Jobs already said that you will be able to install whatever you want on OS X Lion which keeps OS X safe at least until about summer 2013. I think it’s a bit premature to complain now.

shareme 16y ago

I think yo are confusing desktop and mobile environments.. Steve Jobs did not outlaw manual installs of any software on desktop Macs..he just made the MacApp store feel Boutique or exclusive to consumers..

DougBTX 16y ago

If the forum was still called "Start-up News", I don't think you'd be able to point out a contradiction. The App Store has made it significantly easier to sell software made by small developers to iOS users, they are about to make it really easy to sell to Mac users too. It's a business opportunity. The worst you can say about it is that commercial software is catching up with ease of distribution of free software. Hey, you've got 90 days to ship a competing app store for the Mac. Valve has already done so with Steam on Windows and Macs, it isn't insurmountable. What's going to make your one better than theirs?

palewery 16y ago

Have you used VMware Fusion 3.0. It is quite fast and integrates well with OS X and MBP hardware. I use a MBP as my workstation and a Fedora VM for development in the MBP.

kls 16y ago
I dumped it for Virtual Box. As good of a product and free.
- palewery 16y ago
  I wondered if they had some decent competition. The upgrade from fusion 2.0 to 3.0 was $10.
  - kls 16y ago
    If the upgrade would have been $10 when I made the decision I would have staid, but it was not when I decided to make the switch. Oh well, I have moved on now.

pilom 16y ago

How is the Mac app store any different from Ubuntu's? With both platforms, you can install other programs not in the store. Both of them automate the install and update process for applications. Both of them (now) allow you to pay for apps. I'm confused by people being upset with the mac app store when FOSS has been doing the same thing for years with package management software. Heck, Cydia is even based off of a *nix package manager. I don't want to call it fanboyism because I know you have other reasons for disliking their new app store but after seeing how well it works in Ubuntu, why could this possibly be a bad idea?

mirkules 16y ago
I never used Ubuntu's store, so my natural question is: do applications have to get approved in Ubuntu's store? If the answer is"no," it may be the biggest difference with the most impact on end-users and developers.

pohl 16y ago

What is it about your personal definition of the word "hacker" that leads you to believe that all such people would arrive at the same opinion about this? This is a popular, growing, and interesting platform. It has APIs, languages, and tools. It's Unix and has a CLI. There is money in them thar hills...why wouldn't there be room for more than one hackerly opinion on the matter?

roqetman 16y ago

You can still install it yourself... both Windows and Linux don't come with it already installed. I think that that is Jobs's point - if they bundled it, it was out of date by ship-time.

protomyth 16y ago

From someone who works with a OS X software company, the announcement was great. I am really not worried about OS X being closed because of development needs and the server version. Not shipping Flash on the MacBook Air was pretty understandable given the noise Adobe made about the OS X 10.6 release version of Flash. The whole build & release cycle seems to take longer than it takes Adobe to patch Flash. So, it is probably a good thing to train users to go to Adobe's site and get the newest Flash. Dropping an Apple version of Java will probably be a good decision and actually help Java developers. If Oracle is actually taking over then OS X will most probably (given Oracle's catalog of OS X software) be at the same version as all the other platforms instead of the current delay.

slantyyz 16y ago
Another reason to not ship Flash is that by the time you install the OS, the version of Flash is usually outdated and you've got to install the update anyways. Every time I reinstall an OS, Mac or otherwise, I find myself having to update Flash. If I've got to do that, I may as well install from scratch.

matwood 16y ago

I'm surprised at the generally positive approach in HN toward Apple's recent announcements. Apple is about to have control over the user's system no one since mainframe-era IBM ever came close to. Not only they're about to move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden, they are showing they can drop support for major technologies like Java or Flash if they feel like it. This is not good news for anyone but Apple, certainly not anyone calling themselves "Hacker". The problem is that you're jumping to some serious conclusions. Nothing about the mac app store demo showed banning of applications from a different source. You're assuming that's their plan, but I don't think it is. The app store makes perfect sense from an end user perspective. One of the great things about linux are the package managers. A central location with lots of software that I can install from AND get updates from. There is no flash on the iPhone for many well document reasons, so I'll guess you're referring to no flash on the new MBA. Given that any version of flash is out of date and a huge security hole as soon as it's installed, it makes complete sense to force users to go get the latest version when they buy their machine. It wasn't long ago that the shipping version of flash on osx had a huge security hole that made Apple look bad. What I would like to see if Apple let Adobe put their flash player into the new mac app store. This lets Adobe manage the updates like any other 3rd party developer. As a 'hacker' I look at what is. Right now my MBP works great and has all the support I need. If Apple does end up going down the path of locking out all other software and/or the ability to hack and develop I'll switch back to linux. At this point though, it's much ado about nothing.

j_baker 16y ago

1. Unless the Mac app store takes away your ability to install apps that aren't in it, I wouldn't be too worried. 2. They're not dropping support for Java, they're just not making it anymore. If Oracle makes a version of Java for the Mac, then it will be supported. If not, then losing Java must not be that big a deal right?