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MacEwan was in the midst of constructing the $180-million Allard Hall: a state-of-the-art building boasting music studios and dance halls with room for 1,800 st

MacEwan was in the midst of constructing the $180-million Allard Hall: a state-of-the-art building boasting music studios and dance halls with room for 1,800 students Why does a college need a building that costs a large fraction of a billion dollars? Early this week we had an article about college education costs being one corner of the "Bermuda triangle" of personal finance. Out of control spending on new, shiny things is part of the problem, I think.

minikites 8y ago
>Why does a college need a building that costs a large fraction of a billion dollars? It's the end result of applying capitalism to all human activities. Schools have to compete for students and they do so with activities that prospective students and parents will respond to. It's also why health care costs are higher when privatized, they're similar "markets".
- rthomas6 8y ago
  That's part of the reason. But why do costs go down for some things and up for other things when capitalism is applied? Because some markets' demand, like education and the current healthcare market, is not sensitive to price.
- wongarsu 8y ago
  >It's the end result of applying capitalism to all human activities. I would argue both extremes work: free education works (see Europe), completely capitalistic education should also work. But America doesn't apply captitalism to education. Schools have all the pressure of competition you describe, but normally the lifetime profitability of gaining a degree as would put a reasonable ceiling on education costs (outside of elite institutions for the rich and gifted). But in the US, student loans with their subsidies and special legal status remove monetary restrictions from the market, allowing most people to pay whatever the schools ask for. And for the supply side of any capitalist market it is only rational to raise prices to what the market is willing and able to pay. In a free, unsubsidized, unpriviledged market for student loans we wouldn't see massivley rising education costs. Social mobility might be even worse though, so free education is likely still superiour.
grecy 8y ago
It's the way our "Developed World" functions now - growth above all else. My brother recently built a house, and the taxes and fees from the local city council are sky high. Of course, the city council did just build themselves a lavish new office building for $20M that looks like it belongs in a contemporary art museum. It's no secret if they had just built a nice and functional building with the same office space for $10M everyone would be paying less city rates. But that's not how our world works.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  The year to year vehicle excise tax increases where I used to live almost always were on the same order of magnitude as whatever boondoggle project the taxpayers were refusing to fund.
RobLach 8y ago
It’s a sign of trust and respect to invest heavily into institutions you believe in. You want that building to feel like forever and the costs skyrocket when you no longer use mass market materials. That said, institutions are quick to exploit this romanticism and things start to lose perspective.
rthomas6 8y ago
I think colleges are doing these things because of federally guaranteed student loans, because of the following chain of events: 1. Students are price insensitive for college if they don't have to pay for it up front. 2. Banks are incentivized to loan unlimited money to students because the federal government guarantees the loans with zero exceptions-- the bank gets repaid no matter what, so it's very low risk. 3. Colleges and universities are incentivized to increase tuition, because the demand curve is almost completely flat because of 1 and 2. The solution seems obvious to me: stop guaranteeing student loans, and stop subsidizing them. But nobody want to do it because it's political suicide.
- tialaramex 8y ago
  > The solution seems obvious to me. But nobody want to do it because it's political suicide. I like that this works for both readings. If you say to yourself "Obviously the solution is to eliminate federally backed student loans" that's political suicide because it means most people can't have a tertiary education (even if at some future date this chance means the institutions charge less than today) If you say to yourself "Obviously the solution is to make tertiary education free at point of use" that's political suicide because it means a big tax hike to pay for it, plus either an unprecedented interference by the state in the operation of non-state entities offering education OR the state builds loads of extra institutions in competition with those pre-existing non-state establishments. Of course, never say never, twenty years ago who'd have guessed major US politicians would be saying actually maybe we should just have single payer healthcare?
  - TuringNYC 8y ago
    Isnt there a middle ground? Like having tertiary education free for state/city/public universities to ensure the poor arent left without choice. And also eliminating federally backed student loans so eventually all schools normalize price and all schools become increasingly affordable?
    - module0000 8y ago
      Yes there is certainly a middle ground. The poor, middle, and upper class all have a GREAT choice available to them. Instead of spending 10, 20, or 30 years paying back your loans: spend 3 years working and have 0 loans. https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/montgomery_bill.asp https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/montgomery_bill.asp Bonus points.. you learn skills/trades/work-ethic/survival-skills/basic-medical-training, and will be useful in an emergency for the rest of your life.
wk_end 8y ago
It’s not clear to me that $180 million is an unreasonable amount of money to spend on a state-of-the-art building with multiple music studios and dance halls, necessary for music or dance programs that the school (presumably) offers. Between the tuition the students pay, grants from government, and potential commercial use of the space (for concerts, shows, etc.) it’ll likely pay for itself soon enough. Also bear in mind - while still pricy, higher education in Canada is leagues cheaper than in the US. My degree from UofT - usually internationally ranked among or at least near the Ivy Leagues - was about $5000 a year. So I’m not sure this belongs in the same category of educational institution excess or Bermuda Triangle of finance stuff you’re talking about.
- ta2121 8y ago
  >it’ll likely pay for itself soon enough. Thats the problem though right? "Paying for itself" means students paying higher costs which is the problem.
  - bagacrap 8y ago
    Only the students who feel the need to attend a university with state of the art facilities.
    - warent 8y ago
      Unfortunately it's not such an easy decision when businesses value degrees more from universities with state of the art facilities.
  - wk_end 8y ago
    Ideally the school offers no facilities so the students don’t need to pay anything /s That was the upshot of the second paragraph of my post - in Canada, students don’t pay an absurd amount, so it’s not really a problem.
- Retric 8y ago
  The problem is the worlds 'state of the art'. You don't need a lot of space for dance halls and music studios for under 2000 students. People add sound insulation to existing rooms at relatively low cost and it's cheaper when your starting from scratch. So, in terms of education they really could have done the same thing for under 50 million, but why build a utilitarian box when you want to attract students.
joe_the_user 8y ago
Indeed, It seems logical for out-and-out fraud to muscle in on "pork" situations. The university is building a status symbol, as much for the prestige of the administration as for any use. They're likely sending the contract to "friends" since they're clearly not terribly concerned with cost-benefits. So you wind-up with a bunch of money just bleeding out with little oversight. And so someone takes even more "initiative" and just scams some of those millions away. Maybe that someone even had some acquaintance with the whole scheme. Yes, overt crime thrives in a situation of "generalized corruption".
alaskamiller 8y ago
A building is meant to last for awhile. Say it's 20 years. $180MM / (20 yrs x 1800 people) = $5000/yr/person Is that unreasonable?
- athenot 8y ago
  Per your sibbing comment, that's 100% of the price of their tuition at a Canadian university.
- caymanjim 8y ago
  It's unreasonable for a building to last only 20 years regardless of price. I work in a nearly 100 year old building and live in a 120 year old house. Even a modestly-priced building of that scale should last many decades.
markandrewj 8y ago
I am not sure if this completely answers your question, however as a Edmontonian I can give a little feedback. The school has a very active arts and music department. These programs used to be taught in a separate building from the main campus, that was aging, and in a not so nice part of the city. For this reason I think it was consolidated to the main campus, and upgraded. You can read a bit about it here: https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/end-is-nigh-for-macewans-west-end-campus-in-the-big-orange-building https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/end-is-nigh-for-... So although some may think that things like music studios are not a necessity, they are in this case.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  >So although some may think that things like music studios are not a necessity, they are in this case. No one said it was unnecessary; the GP questioned why it needed to be "state of the art".
  - markandrewj 8y ago
    I thought about not including this sentence. I don't think it expressed what I was trying to say properly. My personal experience has been that the arts often get the short end of the stick when it comes to budget, and that what is offered for facilities and supplies ends up lacking because it is not viewed as required. I was happy to see the University invest into these facilities, in part because the music department is something the school is known for locally. Tuition is an issue and consideration though. Historically tuition has been reasonable at Macewan, maybe this has changed though. In general tuition has been getting out of control, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.

minikites 8y ago

>Why does a college need a building that costs a large fraction of a billion dollars? It's the end result of applying capitalism to all human activities. Schools have to compete for students and they do so with activities that prospective students and parents will respond to. It's also why health care costs are higher when privatized, they're similar "markets".

rthomas6 8y ago
That's part of the reason. But why do costs go down for some things and up for other things when capitalism is applied? Because some markets' demand, like education and the current healthcare market, is not sensitive to price.
wongarsu 8y ago
>It's the end result of applying capitalism to all human activities. I would argue both extremes work: free education works (see Europe), completely capitalistic education should also work. But America doesn't apply captitalism to education. Schools have all the pressure of competition you describe, but normally the lifetime profitability of gaining a degree as would put a reasonable ceiling on education costs (outside of elite institutions for the rich and gifted). But in the US, student loans with their subsidies and special legal status remove monetary restrictions from the market, allowing most people to pay whatever the schools ask for. And for the supply side of any capitalist market it is only rational to raise prices to what the market is willing and able to pay. In a free, unsubsidized, unpriviledged market for student loans we wouldn't see massivley rising education costs. Social mobility might be even worse though, so free education is likely still superiour.

grecy 8y ago

It's the way our "Developed World" functions now - growth above all else. My brother recently built a house, and the taxes and fees from the local city council are sky high. Of course, the city council did just build themselves a lavish new office building for $20M that looks like it belongs in a contemporary art museum. It's no secret if they had just built a nice and functional building with the same office space for $10M everyone would be paying less city rates. But that's not how our world works.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
The year to year vehicle excise tax increases where I used to live almost always were on the same order of magnitude as whatever boondoggle project the taxpayers were refusing to fund.

RobLach 8y ago

It’s a sign of trust and respect to invest heavily into institutions you believe in. You want that building to feel like forever and the costs skyrocket when you no longer use mass market materials. That said, institutions are quick to exploit this romanticism and things start to lose perspective.

rthomas6 8y ago

I think colleges are doing these things because of federally guaranteed student loans, because of the following chain of events: 1. Students are price insensitive for college if they don't have to pay for it up front. 2. Banks are incentivized to loan unlimited money to students because the federal government guarantees the loans with zero exceptions-- the bank gets repaid no matter what, so it's very low risk. 3. Colleges and universities are incentivized to increase tuition, because the demand curve is almost completely flat because of 1 and 2. The solution seems obvious to me: stop guaranteeing student loans, and stop subsidizing them. But nobody want to do it because it's political suicide.

tialaramex 8y ago
> The solution seems obvious to me. But nobody want to do it because it's political suicide. I like that this works for both readings. If you say to yourself "Obviously the solution is to eliminate federally backed student loans" that's political suicide because it means most people can't have a tertiary education (even if at some future date this chance means the institutions charge less than today) If you say to yourself "Obviously the solution is to make tertiary education free at point of use" that's political suicide because it means a big tax hike to pay for it, plus either an unprecedented interference by the state in the operation of non-state entities offering education OR the state builds loads of extra institutions in competition with those pre-existing non-state establishments. Of course, never say never, twenty years ago who'd have guessed major US politicians would be saying actually maybe we should just have single payer healthcare?
- TuringNYC 8y ago
  Isnt there a middle ground? Like having tertiary education free for state/city/public universities to ensure the poor arent left without choice. And also eliminating federally backed student loans so eventually all schools normalize price and all schools become increasingly affordable?
  - module0000 8y ago
    Yes there is certainly a middle ground. The poor, middle, and upper class all have a GREAT choice available to them. Instead of spending 10, 20, or 30 years paying back your loans: spend 3 years working and have 0 loans. https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/montgomery_bill.asp https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill/montgomery_bill.asp Bonus points.. you learn skills/trades/work-ethic/survival-skills/basic-medical-training, and will be useful in an emergency for the rest of your life.

wk_end 8y ago

It’s not clear to me that $180 million is an unreasonable amount of money to spend on a state-of-the-art building with multiple music studios and dance halls, necessary for music or dance programs that the school (presumably) offers. Between the tuition the students pay, grants from government, and potential commercial use of the space (for concerts, shows, etc.) it’ll likely pay for itself soon enough. Also bear in mind - while still pricy, higher education in Canada is leagues cheaper than in the US. My degree from UofT - usually internationally ranked among or at least near the Ivy Leagues - was about $5000 a year. So I’m not sure this belongs in the same category of educational institution excess or Bermuda Triangle of finance stuff you’re talking about.

ta2121 8y ago
>it’ll likely pay for itself soon enough. Thats the problem though right? "Paying for itself" means students paying higher costs which is the problem.
- bagacrap 8y ago
  Only the students who feel the need to attend a university with state of the art facilities.
  - warent 8y ago
    Unfortunately it's not such an easy decision when businesses value degrees more from universities with state of the art facilities.
- wk_end 8y ago
  Ideally the school offers no facilities so the students don’t need to pay anything /s That was the upshot of the second paragraph of my post - in Canada, students don’t pay an absurd amount, so it’s not really a problem.
Retric 8y ago
The problem is the worlds 'state of the art'. You don't need a lot of space for dance halls and music studios for under 2000 students. People add sound insulation to existing rooms at relatively low cost and it's cheaper when your starting from scratch. So, in terms of education they really could have done the same thing for under 50 million, but why build a utilitarian box when you want to attract students.

joe_the_user 8y ago

Indeed, It seems logical for out-and-out fraud to muscle in on "pork" situations. The university is building a status symbol, as much for the prestige of the administration as for any use. They're likely sending the contract to "friends" since they're clearly not terribly concerned with cost-benefits. So you wind-up with a bunch of money just bleeding out with little oversight. And so someone takes even more "initiative" and just scams some of those millions away. Maybe that someone even had some acquaintance with the whole scheme. Yes, overt crime thrives in a situation of "generalized corruption".

alaskamiller 8y ago

A building is meant to last for awhile. Say it's 20 years. $180MM / (20 yrs x 1800 people) = $5000/yr/person Is that unreasonable?

athenot 8y ago
Per your sibbing comment, that's 100% of the price of their tuition at a Canadian university.
caymanjim 8y ago
It's unreasonable for a building to last only 20 years regardless of price. I work in a nearly 100 year old building and live in a 120 year old house. Even a modestly-priced building of that scale should last many decades.

markandrewj 8y ago

I am not sure if this completely answers your question, however as a Edmontonian I can give a little feedback. The school has a very active arts and music department. These programs used to be taught in a separate building from the main campus, that was aging, and in a not so nice part of the city. For this reason I think it was consolidated to the main campus, and upgraded. You can read a bit about it here: https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/end-is-nigh-for-macewans-west-end-campus-in-the-big-orange-building https://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/end-is-nigh-for-... So although some may think that things like music studios are not a necessity, they are in this case.

EpicEng 8y ago
>So although some may think that things like music studios are not a necessity, they are in this case. No one said it was unnecessary; the GP questioned why it needed to be "state of the art".
- markandrewj 8y ago
  I thought about not including this sentence. I don't think it expressed what I was trying to say properly. My personal experience has been that the arts often get the short end of the stick when it comes to budget, and that what is offered for facilities and supplies ends up lacking because it is not viewed as required. I was happy to see the University invest into these facilities, in part because the music department is something the school is known for locally. Tuition is an issue and consideration though. Historically tuition has been reasonable at Macewan, maybe this has changed though. In general tuition has been getting out of control, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.