10 ms·

Email from Steve Jobs re: Java and OS X

197 points by sfraser 16y ago

I just got a response from Steve Jobs re: Java and OS X. Here it is.

mahmud 16y ago
Text: "Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms. They have their own release schedules, which are almost always different than ours, so the Java we ship is always a version behind. This may not be the best way to do it" -------------------------------- In reply to: "Mr. Jobs: I am the CTO and founder of a Software company based in Philadelphia. We create and sell Enterprise software into the health care space. Our software is Java based, and runs on both the server and desktop. We have been in business for over 12 years now, and are a healthy growing company with about 180 employees. I am a big Apple customer, as is my company. We love developing and testing Java based software on OS X. Today in the news were stories like this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/21/apple_threatens_to_kill_java_on_the_mac/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/21/apple_threatens_to_k... and here's another example: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20020338-260.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20020338-260.html I am hoping you would consider commenting either to me or via your PR channels what are the future plans for the Java programming language and platform on OS X? One last note - a growing trend over the last few years at all the software conferences I attend is the popularity of the Macbook laptops. Go to any non-Microsoft focused developers conference and the rooms are typically dominated by Mac laptops. One major reason for this is that OS X is a great platform for Java developers. thanks Scott Fraser CTO, Portico Systems http://www.porticosys.com http://www.porticosys.com
- ez77 16y ago
  Missing bit at the end of the original message: "This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message." It is amusing that these stern words, particularly regarding distribution, never seem to apply to the sender.
  - thenduks 16y ago
    That's the footer of Scott's email, not Steve's (Steve's is 'Sent from my iPhone' -- he knows any of his email replies could end up online, of course). He's allowed to share his own correspondence if he wants :)
    - jsdalton 16y ago
      I think ez77 is pointing out the irony that Scott just published Steve's email response for the entire universe to see, but the footer message on his original email indicates Scott would be none too pleased if Steve did the same to him.
      - slantyyz 16y ago
        That footer is one of those "If you do this in an email, I hate you" bits from the Oatmeal: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/email http://theoatmeal.com/comics/email
      - ez77 16y ago
        That's what I meant, indeed. If you unilaterally demand to keep things confidential and undistributed, it would seem consistent to do the same. On the other hand, I realize Jobs is fully aware that most of his replies will be published.
  - zck 16y ago
    >It is amusing that these stern words, particularly regarding distribution, never seem to apply to the sender. Of course, they never apply to the recipient either, absent further contracts or social pressure. You can put whatever you want in your signature; it doesn't make that able to be enforced.
    - blogimus 16y ago
      What might be important which I've observed is that no one of importance seems to read signature disclaimers. Or at least they didn't in my case. As a grunt programmer while working for one large defense contractor some years ago, I put something similar to the following, embedded in a paragraph of mind-numbing boilerplate and no one up the food chain seemed to notice. If you are not the intended recipient, you need not do anything. Men in black will come to erase your memory. Have a good day.
- runjake 16y ago
  > I am hoping you would consider commenting either to me or via your PR channels what are the future plans for the Java programming language and platform on OS X? That would be a question for Oracle at this point. I think Apple just let us know what their plans are for Java.
  - uxp 16y ago
    This makes me wonder if Apple has a redistributable license for Java that allows them to build the Java binaries with OS X, or if Sun was the one that built the binaries that have been included in OS X install discs, but allowed them to be shipped out under Apple's control. I can't find any Java code on opensource.apple.com, so I'm assuming the latter. My personal opinion on the issue is one where Apple and/or Oracle decided that Oracle should control the release schedule of their own software, just like they do with every other platform. I really don't understand why this is such a big deal. Apple decided to not do something completely different and adopted a "normal" behavior and everyone freaks out, just like they do when Apple does something different.
bdb 16y ago
Aligning the Java release schedules for OS X and basically all other platforms would be fantastic. Rather than some kind of deprecation, this actually makes OS X a first-class citizen in the Java ecosystem.
- andrewjshults 16y ago
  As long as the horrible Java updater that the Windows version is saddled with doesn't come along as well. I've switched to using a MBP as my primary development machine but every time I start my windows boxes back up (which isn't that infrequently, probably once a week or so) it seems like there is a new Java update. It wouldn't be so bad, except that it seems that over half the time the update will fail without explanation in the middle. I think if Oracle quickly steps up to the plate and promises to fill Apple's shoes, this could be a good thing. Otherwise, this could very well be another downside to Oracle gobbling up Sun.
  - bdb 16y ago
    Agreed. (Still not quite as bad as the Adobe Reader updates, though. My god.) Hopefully you'll have the option to use Java on OS X packaged like it is on Linux.
    - alexknight 16y ago
      Apple has given no indication that they won't allow users to install Java runtime straight from the source itself. They're merely saying that they won't ship it with the OS anymore.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - com 16y ago
        But a big part of this issue is the upcoming Mac App Store. The rule that's been floated is apps cannot be based on "deprecated or optionally-installed technologies". This makes a lot of sense, dependency hell and all the other related things proprietary platforms do so poorly (I'm looking at you, Microsoft) are seriously improved with such a rule. Just think of the lower number of trouble tickets and irritated customers. Straight from the source means ... ta-da! "Optionally installed". Therefore, no Java-based apps in the Mac App Store. Bad for Java app developers on the Mac - Apple's app store is likely to be a very good channel for sales - unless Oracle step up to the plate with a (cross-platform) app store. But good luck with that - it won't be so visible, cross-platform apps are generally dodgy, and it doesn't have Steve Job's magic pixie dust.
pat2man 16y ago
It would be nice to get a commitment from Oracle saying that they would support a Mac version BEFORE Apple drops support...
- goalieca 16y ago
  Ya. I have a mac and I always assumed that sun/oracle released their own version that was not installed by default. Well, it appears they dont. >Apple Computer fournit sa propre version de Java. Utilisez la fonction de mise à jour du logiciel (disponible dans le menu Apple), afin de vérifier que vous disposez de la version la plus récente de Java pour votre Mac.
sfraser 16y ago
Hi everyone, I added the text as a comment to the image so you can read/copy it more easily.
- mahmud 16y ago
  Shucks, I did the transcript too above, at 4x zoom :-/ That will be $0.10, Sir!
jon914 16y ago
It's great to hear that this was a practical consideration on Apple's part. I hope that they ensure a smooth transition of the responsibility to Oracle and perhaps even hand over some of the existing work, if licensing permits it.
jasonjei 16y ago
Apple always had a strange, conflicting working dynamic with Sun, a company whose purpose became more aligned to developing technology for the sake of developing technology. Larry Ellison has always had a close, personal relationship with Jobs (and I've always believed that Larry wants to be the Apple of the Enterprise world), so maybe this is a sign that the new boss of Java is handling things differently here, or rather Jobs's personal relationship at work here.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
klync 16y ago
TRWTF is that it took Jobs and Apple's thousands of employees how many years to notice this? Either that, or his answer is pure BS and has nothing to do with why Apple made this decision now.
- bdb 16y ago
  Or, could it be that it was a delicate inter-company relationship and it took time (and Sun being acquired by Oracle) for this shift to take place?
  - grav1tas 16y ago
    Either that, or this is all a really highly orchestrated plan of Apple's to phase out official Java support completely after building up a Cocoa developer base. Are there any good numbers on Java desktop applications (aside from Java plugins) vs Java server applications these days? How big of an effect will dropping official "Apple" support complete with UI fancy-ness and some sorta Cocoa bridge? If we have to move to OpenJDK, will server apps really be burned all that much? What exactly is the big deal with having to switch to OpenJDK, anyway? I hear people complain about Apple being behind all the time with Java...isn't this ultimately what people wanted..an up to date Java distribution on OS X?
  - klync 16y ago
    I wouldn't argue with the notion of Jobs being "delicate", that's for sure. And, apparently same goes with the feelings of the HN crowd toward all things Apple.
empire29 16y ago
I assume that I can still download the java src and compile/install it on OS X, correct? I am a Mac user and had never even realized that Apple uses a special distro and Java.com does not offer a JRE/JDK/etc. download for OS X. After Java is removed, how will Mac users run java apps? What will be the easiest way to get Java back on OS X?
- sfraser 16y ago
  You would still be able to run the Open JDK. There is a port for the Mac, but if I am not mistaken it uses the X Server and is not as well integrated with the graphics layer of OS X desktop. Example: http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/
- palewery 16y ago
  Java still exists on the MAC. There will be no future JDK updates though
cubicle67 16y ago
That's actually a fairly decent reply; far better than 'nope' or 'you're holding it wrong'
- fauigerzigerk 16y ago
  Considering Java apps are banned from the Mac App Store, and there is currently no Oracle JDK for the Mac, I find it hard to call his comment decent. In the interest of not being inflamatory I refrain from calling it something else.
  - andreyf 16y ago
    I've used Macs for years, and I haven't seen a Java app I didn't hate. They're UI is never native and the UX is much slower than good webapp's?
    - robin_reala 16y ago
      Cyberduck generally gets hauled up at this point as an example of a good Java OSX application: http://cyberduck.ch/ http://cyberduck.ch/
      - ryanwaggoner 16y ago
        Sorry, and maybe it's just me (somehow), but Cyberduck is slow. I'd been using it for years and had been putting up with the 10-second spinning beach ball every time I started it or tried to initiate a file transfer because I assumed that it was my old Macbook at fault. But earlier this year I bought a brand new MBP and the problem persisted, so I tried Transmit. Super fast, no issues. I won't be using Cyberduck again. Now that I know it's Java, I'm not surprised.
        mgkimsal 16y ago
        I get beach balls all the time on pretty much everything I do on my mac - terminal, macvim, ical, itunes, mail, firefox, safari, chrome, pages, keynote, screenflow, eclipse, numbers, openoffice and more. They all get slow, lock up, freeze, etc. at some point or another, and it's almost always related to the fact that I'm multitasking. (true, yeah, i'm lame, and it's only a core 2 duo 2.1ghz with 2.5 gigs of RAM - I don't know why I expect to be able to run 3 programs at the same time).
wnoise 16y ago
Ah, images. The best way to communicate the text of an e-mail. (Yes, we do have transcripts thanks to mahmud and sfraser, but still...)
- elbenshira 16y ago
  It's nice to have "evidence" of the email.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - wnoise 16y ago
    An image like that is approximately as fakeable as the text.
    - elbenshira 16y ago
      Yes, hence the quotes around "evidence."
  - andreyf 16y ago
    E-mail headers would be much better evidence.
zmmmmm 16y ago
Positive: Jobs appears to be implying that one of the purposes of this change is that in the future Java will not lag behind on OSX Negative: He gives absolutely no assurance or even hint that there is a plan that this will really happen, or that Apple will be helpful in facilitating it.
- bad_user 16y ago
  What assurance can he give when it is not in Apple's power to promise anything about what Oracle would do? I always wondered why SUN wouldn't also ship an OS X version, they already had to support Windows, Linux, Solaris, with mostly native L&F for Swing. You can't expect Oracle to spend resources and ship for OS X unless Apple gets out of the way. They are deprecating Apple's runtime here, nothing else.
  - zmmmmm 16y ago
    I'm not talking about a contractual assurance here. There are a million ways he could clear the confusion over this. He could easily have picked up the phone and chatted with Larry about it. It would have been simple for him to get some kind of in principal agreement about a handover of the reins. Then he could easily have made a public statement that let everyone know that some arrangements were in place for Oracle to pick up the ball. Or if Larry's playing hard ball he could tell everyone that Oracle is not picking up the ball - either one would be better than just leaving it unstated.
    - nikster 16y ago
      I don't know, to me it makes a lot of sense that Apple's CEO doesn't unofficially announce Java OS X from Oracle via his iPhone. The man's a professional after all. Apple did their part in dropping their own Java version. Reading these comments, it seems likely Oracle would want to step in.
      - zmmmmm 16y ago
        > Apple's CEO doesn't unofficially announce Java OS X from Oracle Where on earth did I imply that? What would be wrong with: "We intend to offer whatever assistance we can to third party JVM providers ensure that Mac users still have an excellent Java runtime available to them" Instead we have a bold and inflammatory headline saying "Java Deprecation" and on information about whether Java will continue to exist on Macs at all in the future.
bdb 16y ago
The other thing to note here is that virtually all of Apple's web properties are Java applications. Apple has a tremendous internal investment in Java and Java technologies -- the App Store, Apple Web Store, iTunes Store, hell -- even Ping -- are written in Java (via WebObjects).
- sunkencity 16y ago
  it's a pity apple ported their web framework from objective-c to java
- BonoboBoner 16y ago
  I am curious, how do you know that they used WebObjects?
  - zenslug 16y ago
    I can verify that the iTunes store and Ping use WebObjects.
  - program 16y ago
    It's well known. An extract from Wikipedia: "Apple is now the biggest client for WebObjects, relying on it to power its online Apple Store, MobileMe online services, and the iTunes Store."
  - p0ppe 16y ago
    Having the string "WebObjects" in the URl:s should be a pretty good indicator; https://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=acct&sf=wHF2F2PHCCCX72KDY https://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore...
- brown9-2 16y ago
  Indeed, Apple's career site shows about 94 results for a search for "Java" (in the US): http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?Language=en&CountryId=3 http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?Language=en&CountryId=3
nevster 16y ago
Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison are good friends. Jobs was the photographer at Ellison's wedding. Since Oracle bought Sun, it's almost certain the two have discussed Java on the Mac and since Larry has shown his enthusiasm for Java (see JavaOne rundowns), I'm pretty confident things are looking up.
- mbeaty 16y ago
  This is encouraging. Didn't know they were friends. Makes you wonder though why they didn't do some sort of coordinated announcement. I'd REALLY like to hear from Oracle about this soon.
TwoSheds 16y ago
AFAIK the code which makes the Swing UI use native OSX (Cocoa) instead of X is Apple proprietary. I wonder whether Apple will now give that to Oracle or release it as Open Source. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with X Server and ugly UIs for a long time :-(
- stellar678 16y ago
  Two thoughts: First, with some quick Googling/Wikipedia-ing it seems that Java is released under the GPL. Wouldn't the viral nature of GPL make this code from Apple open source? Second, if Apple cared enough to invest in building the code to make Swing seem native-OSX in the first place, one would assume they care enough to ensure that it stays available ongoing. Otherwise Java applications begin to drag down the 'desirability' of the OSX platform.
  - TwoSheds 16y ago
    Good point. And I don't think classpath exception would apply here. I'd be interested to hear if someone has actually seen this source code "in the wild".
  - Zak 16y ago
    Wouldn't the viral nature of GPL make this code from Apple open source? No. Apple's Java was based on code licensed from Sun long before Java was released under the GPL. Additionally, Sun's release of code owned by Sun under the GPL does not preclude Sun from licensing that same code under other terms if it so chooses. That's the basis of the dual-license model used by other projects like MySQL.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
sp4rki 16y ago
Oracle is truly the demise of Java. I mean look at what they are doing to Open Office.
sunjain 16y ago
Actually it is much more than what meets the eye. As a trend emerges where use of iPads/iPhones increases in the Enterprisy land, it will not hurt Apple to be up-to-date with Java. And as Steve puts it, it is better to leave upkeep of Java to Oracle who is standardizing their whole Application suite on Java and are focused on Java.Fact that Steve Job was the best man at Larry's wedding was not the deciding factor here.
ajx 16y ago
Oracle's lawsuit against google was the last nail in the coffin for Java. If I were you, and was forced to using java code, I would definately either use gcj to compile directly to native object code, or use an oracle supported JVM.
nir 16y ago
I'm surprised at the generally positive approach in HN toward Apple's recent announcements. Apple is about to have control over the user's system no one since mainframe-era IBM ever came close to. Not only they're about to move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden, they are showing they can drop support for major technologies like Java or Flash if they feel like it. This is not good news for anyone but Apple, certainly not anyone calling themselves "Hacker".
- cubicle67 16y ago
  I think you may be overreacting a bit here, although we won't know until a few years down the track Apple aren't about to "move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden", but rather they're about to add an optional place to purchase apps. It's an addition that I think may have some benefit for some users and smaller indie developers. I can see it becoming the way most people purchase most of their apps in time, but I can never see it becoming the only way to do so on the mac. They also haven't dropped support for either Flash or Java. The new MBAs aren't shipping with Flash installed; so what? OSX is the only OS I'm aware of that does ship with Flash. Java? Well, Java's not going anywhere either.
  - kls 16y ago
    Right, I think Steve is smart enough to not follow so many others down that path in history. A completely closed system would cut developers off at the knees. Which would put Apple on the hook to develop every piece of software for their ecosystem. There is no way the could keep up with the idea factory that is the masses. I think rather Apple sees an opportunity to provide a sales channel where they get a cut of other people work by acting as the distributor and in turn do things like guarantee that the app if free of malicious actions and compatible with OSX systems. As for Java, I knew this one was coming, Jobs and Ellison are good friends and Apple and Oracle are the only two companies that either are not at war with, they really don't compete in each other spaces. So I think Jobs is comfortable with Oracle providing the JVM for their platform. I am sure that Steve has resigned any worry in his head that Java is going to achieve desktop dominance so it is not a Trojan horse to his platform where it will be used to provide OSX apps in preference over the native OSX development technologies. Giving it back to Oracle means that the developers get the latest JVM at the same time as everyone else not waiting up to a year as the cycle comes around itself. I think it is a good move on both companies parts. I just wonder why Steve always has to be so vague. I think his showmanship has become so ingrained that he just can't come right out and say it everything has to be a big announcement. I guess I cant fault him, it's his trademark and has served him well.
esschul 16y ago
Is this the way the big companies talk to each other? By getting some random email published? I don't think apple and oracle had a dialog going here, because why would apple want to look like the bad guy? So if Oracle says "we'll do this", then great. Oracle will be appreciated again.
heretique 16y ago
Last sentence of Steve's reply: "This may not be the best way to do it" tells me that, there may be better way. I really hope that Snoracle will ship OSX distribution of Java. Anyway, Java developers despite of being geeks, make a good PR for Apple. Just look at laptop covers on any given Java developer conferrence.
modokode 16y ago
Darn top poster.
JunkDNA 16y ago
To those of you hand-wringing about whether or not Oracle will support Mac, if history is any guide, they may well do it. Oracle has always provided decent driver support for the Oracle database on a multitude of operating systems. When Apple switched to Intel, they released native OS X drivers. They have done this in spite of the fact that Macs have a small enterprise footprint. I see no reason why they would behave differently with Java. In fact, their own GUI front end to Oracle is written in Java, so if they want that to run on the Mac, they will need to do something.
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mhayden 16y ago
Could the guy's email signature be any longer?
ezrider4428 16y ago
It should be Oracle's focus to satisfy its customers. If a lot of Java devs work on Mac's then Oracle should make sure that all Mac's have the best java software available to them. This is not Apple's responsibility
xe2yp 16y ago
Ok... Now someone email Larry Ellison to see what response we get from him. :-) Apple is a big WebObjects user. And WebObjects is 100% java based. This means that developers use Eclipse/WOLips/java to develop their WebObjects applications and java on the server to deploy. There is also OpenJDK and it looks like that will be the route that developers will use to get java for OS X. This may actually be good. You will not have to rely on OS X releases to get java. The only thing that doesn't look good is Swing unless OpenJDK implements Swing using Cocoa instead of X11. :-)
gusmaru 16y ago
What worries me is that Steve did not confirm whether Oracle will be releasing Java on the Apple platform. He just says that Oracle supples Java for all other platforms - they have never done it for Apple. So there is still no commitment of Java support on Mac OS X.
nicolaiw 16y ago
Sorry, but all the performance talk on Java are bogus. There are UI issues in Look and Feel, Nd some great developers have developed applications that fell 100% native in Java and work very well. Large part of the web servers and back-end apps run on Java, and no Java on Mac means no macs for many camps. As noted Apple's own web infrastructure is Java based. Facebook, built maybe the world's best performaning databae server in Java, that stores data for 200M+ daily users (500M+). Google runs large parts of their infrastructure on Java. I have seen benchmarks on number chrunching apps where Java beat C++ performance (this is due to JIT, which almost every JVM has today - some only enable in "server mode" though - means that the Java byte code runs as machine code for the exact processor being used at runtime), not true for all types of number crunching but for some. Java is not a one size fits alls solution but there are a large number of application areas for Java and hundreds of programming languages that run on Java Virtual Machine platform. No Java on Mac is an unlikely scenario for Apple, but time will tell...
usarioclave 16y ago
Portico's stuff requires java 1.3 and is still AWT and based on 1.1. WTF do they care about java 1.6+
- porticodev 16y ago
  WRONG.
JohnnyW 16y ago
I'm glad Apple is returning control of Java to Sun/Oracle. Java is the most widely used language in the world (http://www.devtopics.com/most-popular-programming-languages http://www.devtopics.com/most-popular-programming-languages) and is great for most programming tasks, especially large projects. IMO Apple has done a sucky job of maintaining Java. Not surprising, since it isn't their business. Hopefully Sun/Oracle will do a much better job of releasing an JVM for Macintosh.

197 points by sfraser 16y ago

I just got a response from Steve Jobs re: Java and OS X. Here it is.

Text: "Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms. They have their own release schedules, which are almost always different than ours, so the Java we ship is always a version behind. This may not be the best way to do it" -------------------------------- In reply to: "Mr. Jobs: I am the CTO and founder of a Software company based in Philadelphia. We create and sell Enterprise software into the health care space. Our software is Java based, and runs on both the server and desktop. We have been in business for over 12 years now, and are a healthy growing company with about 180 employees. I am a big Apple customer, as is my company. We love developing and testing Java based software on OS X. Today in the news were stories like this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/21/apple_threatens_to_kill_java_on_the_mac/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/21/apple_threatens_to_k... and here's another example: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20020338-260.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20020338-260.html I am hoping you would consider commenting either to me or via your PR channels what are the future plans for the Java programming language and platform on OS X? One last note - a growing trend over the last few years at all the software conferences I attend is the popularity of the Macbook laptops. Go to any non-Microsoft focused developers conference and the rooms are typically dominated by Mac laptops. One major reason for this is that OS X is a great platform for Java developers. thanks Scott Fraser CTO, Portico Systems http://www.porticosys.com http://www.porticosys.com

ez77 16y ago
Missing bit at the end of the original message: "This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message." It is amusing that these stern words, particularly regarding distribution, never seem to apply to the sender.
- thenduks 16y ago
  That's the footer of Scott's email, not Steve's (Steve's is 'Sent from my iPhone' -- he knows any of his email replies could end up online, of course). He's allowed to share his own correspondence if he wants :)
  - jsdalton 16y ago
    I think ez77 is pointing out the irony that Scott just published Steve's email response for the entire universe to see, but the footer message on his original email indicates Scott would be none too pleased if Steve did the same to him.
    - slantyyz 16y ago
      That footer is one of those "If you do this in an email, I hate you" bits from the Oatmeal: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/email http://theoatmeal.com/comics/email
    - ez77 16y ago
      That's what I meant, indeed. If you unilaterally demand to keep things confidential and undistributed, it would seem consistent to do the same. On the other hand, I realize Jobs is fully aware that most of his replies will be published.
- zck 16y ago
  >It is amusing that these stern words, particularly regarding distribution, never seem to apply to the sender. Of course, they never apply to the recipient either, absent further contracts or social pressure. You can put whatever you want in your signature; it doesn't make that able to be enforced.
  - blogimus 16y ago
    What might be important which I've observed is that no one of importance seems to read signature disclaimers. Or at least they didn't in my case. As a grunt programmer while working for one large defense contractor some years ago, I put something similar to the following, embedded in a paragraph of mind-numbing boilerplate and no one up the food chain seemed to notice. If you are not the intended recipient, you need not do anything. Men in black will come to erase your memory. Have a good day.
runjake 16y ago
> I am hoping you would consider commenting either to me or via your PR channels what are the future plans for the Java programming language and platform on OS X? That would be a question for Oracle at this point. I think Apple just let us know what their plans are for Java.
- uxp 16y ago
  This makes me wonder if Apple has a redistributable license for Java that allows them to build the Java binaries with OS X, or if Sun was the one that built the binaries that have been included in OS X install discs, but allowed them to be shipped out under Apple's control. I can't find any Java code on opensource.apple.com, so I'm assuming the latter. My personal opinion on the issue is one where Apple and/or Oracle decided that Oracle should control the release schedule of their own software, just like they do with every other platform. I really don't understand why this is such a big deal. Apple decided to not do something completely different and adopted a "normal" behavior and everyone freaks out, just like they do when Apple does something different.

bdb 16y ago

Aligning the Java release schedules for OS X and basically all other platforms would be fantastic. Rather than some kind of deprecation, this actually makes OS X a first-class citizen in the Java ecosystem.

andrewjshults 16y ago
As long as the horrible Java updater that the Windows version is saddled with doesn't come along as well. I've switched to using a MBP as my primary development machine but every time I start my windows boxes back up (which isn't that infrequently, probably once a week or so) it seems like there is a new Java update. It wouldn't be so bad, except that it seems that over half the time the update will fail without explanation in the middle. I think if Oracle quickly steps up to the plate and promises to fill Apple's shoes, this could be a good thing. Otherwise, this could very well be another downside to Oracle gobbling up Sun.
- bdb 16y ago
  Agreed. (Still not quite as bad as the Adobe Reader updates, though. My god.) Hopefully you'll have the option to use Java on OS X packaged like it is on Linux.
  - alexknight 16y ago
    Apple has given no indication that they won't allow users to install Java runtime straight from the source itself. They're merely saying that they won't ship it with the OS anymore.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - com 16y ago
      But a big part of this issue is the upcoming Mac App Store. The rule that's been floated is apps cannot be based on "deprecated or optionally-installed technologies". This makes a lot of sense, dependency hell and all the other related things proprietary platforms do so poorly (I'm looking at you, Microsoft) are seriously improved with such a rule. Just think of the lower number of trouble tickets and irritated customers. Straight from the source means ... ta-da! "Optionally installed". Therefore, no Java-based apps in the Mac App Store. Bad for Java app developers on the Mac - Apple's app store is likely to be a very good channel for sales - unless Oracle step up to the plate with a (cross-platform) app store. But good luck with that - it won't be so visible, cross-platform apps are generally dodgy, and it doesn't have Steve Job's magic pixie dust.

pat2man 16y ago

It would be nice to get a commitment from Oracle saying that they would support a Mac version BEFORE Apple drops support...

goalieca 16y ago
Ya. I have a mac and I always assumed that sun/oracle released their own version that was not installed by default. Well, it appears they dont. >Apple Computer fournit sa propre version de Java. Utilisez la fonction de mise à jour du logiciel (disponible dans le menu Apple), afin de vérifier que vous disposez de la version la plus récente de Java pour votre Mac.

sfraser 16y ago

Hi everyone, I added the text as a comment to the image so you can read/copy it more easily.

mahmud 16y ago
Shucks, I did the transcript too above, at 4x zoom :-/ That will be $0.10, Sir!

jon914 16y ago

It's great to hear that this was a practical consideration on Apple's part. I hope that they ensure a smooth transition of the responsibility to Oracle and perhaps even hand over some of the existing work, if licensing permits it.

jasonjei 16y ago

Apple always had a strange, conflicting working dynamic with Sun, a company whose purpose became more aligned to developing technology for the sake of developing technology. Larry Ellison has always had a close, personal relationship with Jobs (and I've always believed that Larry wants to be the Apple of the Enterprise world), so maybe this is a sign that the new boss of Java is handling things differently here, or rather Jobs's personal relationship at work here.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

klync 16y ago

TRWTF is that it took Jobs and Apple's thousands of employees how many years to notice this? Either that, or his answer is pure BS and has nothing to do with why Apple made this decision now.

bdb 16y ago
Or, could it be that it was a delicate inter-company relationship and it took time (and Sun being acquired by Oracle) for this shift to take place?
- grav1tas 16y ago
  Either that, or this is all a really highly orchestrated plan of Apple's to phase out official Java support completely after building up a Cocoa developer base. Are there any good numbers on Java desktop applications (aside from Java plugins) vs Java server applications these days? How big of an effect will dropping official "Apple" support complete with UI fancy-ness and some sorta Cocoa bridge? If we have to move to OpenJDK, will server apps really be burned all that much? What exactly is the big deal with having to switch to OpenJDK, anyway? I hear people complain about Apple being behind all the time with Java...isn't this ultimately what people wanted..an up to date Java distribution on OS X?
- klync 16y ago
  I wouldn't argue with the notion of Jobs being "delicate", that's for sure. And, apparently same goes with the feelings of the HN crowd toward all things Apple.

empire29 16y ago

I assume that I can still download the java src and compile/install it on OS X, correct? I am a Mac user and had never even realized that Apple uses a special distro and Java.com does not offer a JRE/JDK/etc. download for OS X. After Java is removed, how will Mac users run java apps? What will be the easiest way to get Java back on OS X?

sfraser 16y ago
You would still be able to run the Open JDK. There is a port for the Mac, but if I am not mistaken it uses the X Server and is not as well integrated with the graphics layer of OS X desktop. Example: http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/ http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/
palewery 16y ago
Java still exists on the MAC. There will be no future JDK updates though

cubicle67 16y ago

That's actually a fairly decent reply; far better than 'nope' or 'you're holding it wrong'

fauigerzigerk 16y ago
Considering Java apps are banned from the Mac App Store, and there is currently no Oracle JDK for the Mac, I find it hard to call his comment decent. In the interest of not being inflamatory I refrain from calling it something else.
- andreyf 16y ago
  I've used Macs for years, and I haven't seen a Java app I didn't hate. They're UI is never native and the UX is much slower than good webapp's?
  - robin_reala 16y ago
    Cyberduck generally gets hauled up at this point as an example of a good Java OSX application: http://cyberduck.ch/ http://cyberduck.ch/
    - ryanwaggoner 16y ago
      Sorry, and maybe it's just me (somehow), but Cyberduck is slow. I'd been using it for years and had been putting up with the 10-second spinning beach ball every time I started it or tried to initiate a file transfer because I assumed that it was my old Macbook at fault. But earlier this year I bought a brand new MBP and the problem persisted, so I tried Transmit. Super fast, no issues. I won't be using Cyberduck again. Now that I know it's Java, I'm not surprised.
      - mgkimsal 16y ago
        I get beach balls all the time on pretty much everything I do on my mac - terminal, macvim, ical, itunes, mail, firefox, safari, chrome, pages, keynote, screenflow, eclipse, numbers, openoffice and more. They all get slow, lock up, freeze, etc. at some point or another, and it's almost always related to the fact that I'm multitasking. (true, yeah, i'm lame, and it's only a core 2 duo 2.1ghz with 2.5 gigs of RAM - I don't know why I expect to be able to run 3 programs at the same time).

wnoise 16y ago

Ah, images. The best way to communicate the text of an e-mail. (Yes, we do have transcripts thanks to mahmud and sfraser, but still...)

elbenshira 16y ago
It's nice to have "evidence" of the email.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- wnoise 16y ago
  An image like that is approximately as fakeable as the text.
  - elbenshira 16y ago
    Yes, hence the quotes around "evidence."
- andreyf 16y ago
  E-mail headers would be much better evidence.

zmmmmm 16y ago

Positive: Jobs appears to be implying that one of the purposes of this change is that in the future Java will not lag behind on OSX Negative: He gives absolutely no assurance or even hint that there is a plan that this will really happen, or that Apple will be helpful in facilitating it.

bad_user 16y ago
What assurance can he give when it is not in Apple's power to promise anything about what Oracle would do? I always wondered why SUN wouldn't also ship an OS X version, they already had to support Windows, Linux, Solaris, with mostly native L&F for Swing. You can't expect Oracle to spend resources and ship for OS X unless Apple gets out of the way. They are deprecating Apple's runtime here, nothing else.
- zmmmmm 16y ago
  I'm not talking about a contractual assurance here. There are a million ways he could clear the confusion over this. He could easily have picked up the phone and chatted with Larry about it. It would have been simple for him to get some kind of in principal agreement about a handover of the reins. Then he could easily have made a public statement that let everyone know that some arrangements were in place for Oracle to pick up the ball. Or if Larry's playing hard ball he could tell everyone that Oracle is not picking up the ball - either one would be better than just leaving it unstated.
  - nikster 16y ago
    I don't know, to me it makes a lot of sense that Apple's CEO doesn't unofficially announce Java OS X from Oracle via his iPhone. The man's a professional after all. Apple did their part in dropping their own Java version. Reading these comments, it seems likely Oracle would want to step in.
    - zmmmmm 16y ago
      > Apple's CEO doesn't unofficially announce Java OS X from Oracle Where on earth did I imply that? What would be wrong with: "We intend to offer whatever assistance we can to third party JVM providers ensure that Mac users still have an excellent Java runtime available to them" Instead we have a bold and inflammatory headline saying "Java Deprecation" and on information about whether Java will continue to exist on Macs at all in the future.

bdb 16y ago

The other thing to note here is that virtually all of Apple's web properties are Java applications. Apple has a tremendous internal investment in Java and Java technologies -- the App Store, Apple Web Store, iTunes Store, hell -- even Ping -- are written in Java (via WebObjects).

sunkencity 16y ago
it's a pity apple ported their web framework from objective-c to java
BonoboBoner 16y ago
I am curious, how do you know that they used WebObjects?
- zenslug 16y ago
  I can verify that the iTunes store and Ping use WebObjects.
- program 16y ago
  It's well known. An extract from Wikipedia: "Apple is now the biggest client for WebObjects, relying on it to power its online Apple Store, MobileMe online services, and the iTunes Store."
- p0ppe 16y ago
  Having the string "WebObjects" in the URl:s should be a pretty good indicator; https://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?nnmm=acct&sf=wHF2F2PHCCCX72KDY https://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore...
brown9-2 16y ago
Indeed, Apple's career site shows about 94 results for a search for "Java" (in the US): http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?Language=en&CountryId=3 http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?Language=en&CountryId=3

nevster 16y ago

Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison are good friends. Jobs was the photographer at Ellison's wedding. Since Oracle bought Sun, it's almost certain the two have discussed Java on the Mac and since Larry has shown his enthusiasm for Java (see JavaOne rundowns), I'm pretty confident things are looking up.

mbeaty 16y ago
This is encouraging. Didn't know they were friends. Makes you wonder though why they didn't do some sort of coordinated announcement. I'd REALLY like to hear from Oracle about this soon.

TwoSheds 16y ago

AFAIK the code which makes the Swing UI use native OSX (Cocoa) instead of X is Apple proprietary. I wonder whether Apple will now give that to Oracle or release it as Open Source. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with X Server and ugly UIs for a long time :-(

stellar678 16y ago
Two thoughts: First, with some quick Googling/Wikipedia-ing it seems that Java is released under the GPL. Wouldn't the viral nature of GPL make this code from Apple open source? Second, if Apple cared enough to invest in building the code to make Swing seem native-OSX in the first place, one would assume they care enough to ensure that it stays available ongoing. Otherwise Java applications begin to drag down the 'desirability' of the OSX platform.
- TwoSheds 16y ago
  Good point. And I don't think classpath exception would apply here. I'd be interested to hear if someone has actually seen this source code "in the wild".
- Zak 16y ago
  Wouldn't the viral nature of GPL make this code from Apple open source? No. Apple's Java was based on code licensed from Sun long before Java was released under the GPL. Additionally, Sun's release of code owned by Sun under the GPL does not preclude Sun from licensing that same code under other terms if it so chooses. That's the basis of the dual-license model used by other projects like MySQL.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

sp4rki 16y ago

Oracle is truly the demise of Java. I mean look at what they are doing to Open Office.

sunjain 16y ago

Actually it is much more than what meets the eye. As a trend emerges where use of iPads/iPhones increases in the Enterprisy land, it will not hurt Apple to be up-to-date with Java. And as Steve puts it, it is better to leave upkeep of Java to Oracle who is standardizing their whole Application suite on Java and are focused on Java.Fact that Steve Job was the best man at Larry's wedding was not the deciding factor here.

ajx 16y ago

Oracle's lawsuit against google was the last nail in the coffin for Java. If I were you, and was forced to using java code, I would definately either use gcj to compile directly to native object code, or use an oracle supported JVM.

nir 16y ago

I'm surprised at the generally positive approach in HN toward Apple's recent announcements. Apple is about to have control over the user's system no one since mainframe-era IBM ever came close to. Not only they're about to move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden, they are showing they can drop support for major technologies like Java or Flash if they feel like it. This is not good news for anyone but Apple, certainly not anyone calling themselves "Hacker".

cubicle67 16y ago
I think you may be overreacting a bit here, although we won't know until a few years down the track Apple aren't about to "move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden", but rather they're about to add an optional place to purchase apps. It's an addition that I think may have some benefit for some users and smaller indie developers. I can see it becoming the way most people purchase most of their apps in time, but I can never see it becoming the only way to do so on the mac. They also haven't dropped support for either Flash or Java. The new MBAs aren't shipping with Flash installed; so what? OSX is the only OS I'm aware of that does ship with Flash. Java? Well, Java's not going anywhere either.
- kls 16y ago
  Right, I think Steve is smart enough to not follow so many others down that path in history. A completely closed system would cut developers off at the knees. Which would put Apple on the hook to develop every piece of software for their ecosystem. There is no way the could keep up with the idea factory that is the masses. I think rather Apple sees an opportunity to provide a sales channel where they get a cut of other people work by acting as the distributor and in turn do things like guarantee that the app if free of malicious actions and compatible with OSX systems. As for Java, I knew this one was coming, Jobs and Ellison are good friends and Apple and Oracle are the only two companies that either are not at war with, they really don't compete in each other spaces. So I think Jobs is comfortable with Oracle providing the JVM for their platform. I am sure that Steve has resigned any worry in his head that Java is going to achieve desktop dominance so it is not a Trojan horse to his platform where it will be used to provide OSX apps in preference over the native OSX development technologies. Giving it back to Oracle means that the developers get the latest JVM at the same time as everyone else not waiting up to a year as the cycle comes around itself. I think it is a good move on both companies parts. I just wonder why Steve always has to be so vague. I think his showmanship has become so ingrained that he just can't come right out and say it everything has to be a big announcement. I guess I cant fault him, it's his trademark and has served him well.

esschul 16y ago

Is this the way the big companies talk to each other? By getting some random email published? I don't think apple and oracle had a dialog going here, because why would apple want to look like the bad guy? So if Oracle says "we'll do this", then great. Oracle will be appreciated again.

heretique 16y ago

Last sentence of Steve's reply: "This may not be the best way to do it" tells me that, there may be better way. I really hope that Snoracle will ship OSX distribution of Java. Anyway, Java developers despite of being geeks, make a good PR for Apple. Just look at laptop covers on any given Java developer conferrence.

modokode 16y ago

Darn top poster.

JunkDNA 16y ago

To those of you hand-wringing about whether or not Oracle will support Mac, if history is any guide, they may well do it. Oracle has always provided decent driver support for the Oracle database on a multitude of operating systems. When Apple switched to Intel, they released native OS X drivers. They have done this in spite of the fact that Macs have a small enterprise footprint. I see no reason why they would behave differently with Java. In fact, their own GUI front end to Oracle is written in Java, so if they want that to run on the Mac, they will need to do something.

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mhayden 16y ago

Could the guy's email signature be any longer?

ezrider4428 16y ago

It should be Oracle's focus to satisfy its customers. If a lot of Java devs work on Mac's then Oracle should make sure that all Mac's have the best java software available to them. This is not Apple's responsibility

xe2yp 16y ago

Ok... Now someone email Larry Ellison to see what response we get from him. :-) Apple is a big WebObjects user. And WebObjects is 100% java based. This means that developers use Eclipse/WOLips/java to develop their WebObjects applications and java on the server to deploy. There is also OpenJDK and it looks like that will be the route that developers will use to get java for OS X. This may actually be good. You will not have to rely on OS X releases to get java. The only thing that doesn't look good is Swing unless OpenJDK implements Swing using Cocoa instead of X11. :-)

gusmaru 16y ago

What worries me is that Steve did not confirm whether Oracle will be releasing Java on the Apple platform. He just says that Oracle supples Java for all other platforms - they have never done it for Apple. So there is still no commitment of Java support on Mac OS X.

nicolaiw 16y ago

Sorry, but all the performance talk on Java are bogus. There are UI issues in Look and Feel, Nd some great developers have developed applications that fell 100% native in Java and work very well. Large part of the web servers and back-end apps run on Java, and no Java on Mac means no macs for many camps. As noted Apple's own web infrastructure is Java based. Facebook, built maybe the world's best performaning databae server in Java, that stores data for 200M+ daily users (500M+). Google runs large parts of their infrastructure on Java. I have seen benchmarks on number chrunching apps where Java beat C++ performance (this is due to JIT, which almost every JVM has today - some only enable in "server mode" though - means that the Java byte code runs as machine code for the exact processor being used at runtime), not true for all types of number crunching but for some. Java is not a one size fits alls solution but there are a large number of application areas for Java and hundreds of programming languages that run on Java Virtual Machine platform. No Java on Mac is an unlikely scenario for Apple, but time will tell...

usarioclave 16y ago

Portico's stuff requires java 1.3 and is still AWT and based on 1.1. WTF do they care about java 1.6+

porticodev 16y ago
WRONG.

JohnnyW 16y ago

I'm glad Apple is returning control of Java to Sun/Oracle. Java is the most widely used language in the world (http://www.devtopics.com/most-popular-programming-languages http://www.devtopics.com/most-popular-programming-languages) and is great for most programming tasks, especially large projects. IMO Apple has done a sucky job of maintaining Java. Not surprising, since it isn't their business. Hopefully Sun/Oracle will do a much better job of releasing an JVM for Macintosh.