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What are they expecting when fraud is the only way to get iPhone repair parts short of buying entire phones? They also could have dramatically reduced fraud by

by opencl 8y ago

What are they expecting when fraud is the only way to get iPhone repair parts short of buying entire phones? They also could have dramatically reduced fraud by creating a legitimate sales channel for the parts rather than making it as difficult as possible for anyone else to fix their devices.

close04 8y ago
That's not an excuse. Or at least not any better than someone stealing organs because legal ones are so hard to come by. As long as the law allows Apple to restrict the supply then what they're doing is just immoral, not illegal. What those fraudsters are doing though is both. They're not stealing just to fix their own phones, they're not doing it as a "public service", they're stealing to line their pockets. Pretty sure that if someone stole from you the excuse above wouldn't be acceptable regardless of the circumstances. [Later Edit] Had no idea there are so many "Robin Hoods" on HN.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  It's more like Apple comes to the court of public opinion for equitable relief, but has unclean hands. Its history of hostility towards self-repair and independent professional repair basically precludes them from complaining about the grey markets and black markets in Apple device repair parts. Of course the black marketeers are in it to line their own pockets. They wouldn't be able to do that if Apple weren't artificially restricting the supply! It couldn't be a racket without Apple's help. Apple elected to operate the Apple repair business as a monopoly, restricting supply to raise prices, and parasitic businesses are trying to siphon some of the monopoly profit off. It's illegal, but that's just one factor in the economic analysis of potential [criminal] entrepreneurs. It isn't that they deserve to be plundered by poor thieves because they are rich, but that they deserve to lose some of their repair revenues because their repair policies are unreasonable in the opinion of some consumers. Aside from that, I'm glad that they're combating the fraud on their own, rather than pushing the problem onto national criminal justice systems as an externality of their business. But that's mainly because they believe Chinese cops would be uncooperative in prosecuting Chinese citizens on behalf of a foreign-owned company.
  - close04 8y ago
    > It's more like Apple comes to the court of public opinion for equitable relief, but has unclean hands. This is not about what Apple is doing, it's about people justifying stealing and suddenly finding it OK because Apple is on the other end. Of course I'm not OK with what Apple is doing but morally you can't justify doing something shitty because "they" do it too. > Apple elected to operate the Apple repair business as a monopoly Again, this is trying to justify stealing. The way they choose to run their business does not justify breaking the law. It justifies changing it. > they deserve to lose some of their repair revenues because their repair policies are unreasonable And doing that by stealing or justifying this method makes you no better than them or the fraudsters. If you want them to lose revenue buy/repair with someone else, don't steal. How is this different from someone stealing a phone and saying "it's because Apple made them so unreasonably expensive"? It reminded me of this parody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51-hepLP8J4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51-hepLP8J4
    - logfromblammo 8y ago
      > This is not about what Apple is doing, it's about people justifying stealing and suddenly finding it OK because Apple is on the other end. Of course I'm not OK with what Apple is doing but morally you can't justify doing something shitty because "they" do it too. Actually, you can. It is not a criminal defense, but it is an equitable defense, and the court of public opinion is a court of equity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_hands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_hands To be more nuanced, it isn't justifying the stealing so much as ignoring Apple's complaints when they whine about it. Who are we to care if two blackguards are to brawl in the gutter? It's bad that the stealing by fraud is happening. But because it is Apple that is the victim, I am entirely unwilling to help them with this problem that they brought upon themselves with their own avarice. And that's fine. They're dealing with it alone, apparently. But not with my revenues. I won't willingly enter the garden with the highest walls and the most dongles with proprietary patented connectors and the most secret repair procedures. I can still hate the thieves while expressing zero or negative sympathy to the victim. The situation is akin to a heroin dealer getting robbed of his cash. The robber is scum for stealing money, but so too is the dealer scum for peddling poison to junkies in lieu of a more ethical product with lower margins. I'd have more sympathy for a marijuana dispensary, and perhaps some actual motivation to punish the robber if the victim were an entirely-lawful pharmacy. If you want a society to help you with your problems, you need to do things that the society likes. In short, until Apple respects right to repair and starts selling genuine repair parts at reasonable cost (including bureaucratic procedural cost), I won't care one whit that they're being fleeced for billions on repair fraud.
branksy 8y ago
What?! It's criminal fraud, it's illegal and should be illegal period. Your argument is extremely dangerous, it's no different from "of course you got robbed and beaten, what are you expecting when you walk into a dangerous neighborhood?" There's a very important line between what's illegal/criminal (robbery, fraud) and what's merely objectionable/distasteful (not selling repair parts), and it's a dangerous game to confuse the two.
- neolefty 8y ago
  It's not black and white. Apple knows it's increasing the reward of fraud — and therefore its own loss to fraud — by not selling parts. But Apple accepts that cost and chooses only to take enforcement actions, not market actions.
  - close04 8y ago
    The fact that Apple knows the risk and considers it still makes sense financially to maintain their policy has nothing to do with the situation being "black or white". The practice described in this article is illegal, plain and simple. It's fraud. It is very much black and white. Finding some "moral" justification for why you may think it's OK to do it doesn't change this. I know I'm going to get downvoted to hell but you're playing the victim blaming game. And yes, I know it sounds ridiculous to say Apple is a victim but it's still stealing and you're justifying it. Sounds a lot like the people who blame the rape victim for dressing "inappropriately" and "increasing the reward".
    - Daishiman 8y ago
      Dude, _nobody_ cares about the legality of it. We're looking at it from the market perspective. And in the market perspective Apple can do a lot of things to prevent this rather than whine about the obvious results of its policy. As a trillion-dollar company, I couldn't give less of a shit about its victimhood.
      - close04 8y ago

by opencl 8y ago

close04 8y ago

That's not an excuse. Or at least not any better than someone stealing organs because legal ones are so hard to come by. As long as the law allows Apple to restrict the supply then what they're doing is just immoral, not illegal. What those fraudsters are doing though is both. They're not stealing just to fix their own phones, they're not doing it as a "public service", they're stealing to line their pockets. Pretty sure that if someone stole from you the excuse above wouldn't be acceptable regardless of the circumstances. [Later Edit] Had no idea there are so many "Robin Hoods" on HN.

logfromblammo 8y ago
It's more like Apple comes to the court of public opinion for equitable relief, but has unclean hands. Its history of hostility towards self-repair and independent professional repair basically precludes them from complaining about the grey markets and black markets in Apple device repair parts. Of course the black marketeers are in it to line their own pockets. They wouldn't be able to do that if Apple weren't artificially restricting the supply! It couldn't be a racket without Apple's help. Apple elected to operate the Apple repair business as a monopoly, restricting supply to raise prices, and parasitic businesses are trying to siphon some of the monopoly profit off. It's illegal, but that's just one factor in the economic analysis of potential [criminal] entrepreneurs. It isn't that they deserve to be plundered by poor thieves because they are rich, but that they deserve to lose some of their repair revenues because their repair policies are unreasonable in the opinion of some consumers. Aside from that, I'm glad that they're combating the fraud on their own, rather than pushing the problem onto national criminal justice systems as an externality of their business. But that's mainly because they believe Chinese cops would be uncooperative in prosecuting Chinese citizens on behalf of a foreign-owned company.
- close04 8y ago
  > It's more like Apple comes to the court of public opinion for equitable relief, but has unclean hands. This is not about what Apple is doing, it's about people justifying stealing and suddenly finding it OK because Apple is on the other end. Of course I'm not OK with what Apple is doing but morally you can't justify doing something shitty because "they" do it too. > Apple elected to operate the Apple repair business as a monopoly Again, this is trying to justify stealing. The way they choose to run their business does not justify breaking the law. It justifies changing it. > they deserve to lose some of their repair revenues because their repair policies are unreasonable And doing that by stealing or justifying this method makes you no better than them or the fraudsters. If you want them to lose revenue buy/repair with someone else, don't steal. How is this different from someone stealing a phone and saying "it's because Apple made them so unreasonably expensive"? It reminded me of this parody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51-hepLP8J4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51-hepLP8J4
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    > This is not about what Apple is doing, it's about people justifying stealing and suddenly finding it OK because Apple is on the other end. Of course I'm not OK with what Apple is doing but morally you can't justify doing something shitty because "they" do it too. Actually, you can. It is not a criminal defense, but it is an equitable defense, and the court of public opinion is a court of equity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_hands https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_hands To be more nuanced, it isn't justifying the stealing so much as ignoring Apple's complaints when they whine about it. Who are we to care if two blackguards are to brawl in the gutter? It's bad that the stealing by fraud is happening. But because it is Apple that is the victim, I am entirely unwilling to help them with this problem that they brought upon themselves with their own avarice. And that's fine. They're dealing with it alone, apparently. But not with my revenues. I won't willingly enter the garden with the highest walls and the most dongles with proprietary patented connectors and the most secret repair procedures. I can still hate the thieves while expressing zero or negative sympathy to the victim. The situation is akin to a heroin dealer getting robbed of his cash. The robber is scum for stealing money, but so too is the dealer scum for peddling poison to junkies in lieu of a more ethical product with lower margins. I'd have more sympathy for a marijuana dispensary, and perhaps some actual motivation to punish the robber if the victim were an entirely-lawful pharmacy. If you want a society to help you with your problems, you need to do things that the society likes. In short, until Apple respects right to repair and starts selling genuine repair parts at reasonable cost (including bureaucratic procedural cost), I won't care one whit that they're being fleeced for billions on repair fraud.

branksy 8y ago

What?! It's criminal fraud, it's illegal and should be illegal period. Your argument is extremely dangerous, it's no different from "of course you got robbed and beaten, what are you expecting when you walk into a dangerous neighborhood?" There's a very important line between what's illegal/criminal (robbery, fraud) and what's merely objectionable/distasteful (not selling repair parts), and it's a dangerous game to confuse the two.

neolefty 8y ago
It's not black and white. Apple knows it's increasing the reward of fraud — and therefore its own loss to fraud — by not selling parts. But Apple accepts that cost and chooses only to take enforcement actions, not market actions.
- close04 8y ago
  The fact that Apple knows the risk and considers it still makes sense financially to maintain their policy has nothing to do with the situation being "black or white". The practice described in this article is illegal, plain and simple. It's fraud. It is very much black and white. Finding some "moral" justification for why you may think it's OK to do it doesn't change this. I know I'm going to get downvoted to hell but you're playing the victim blaming game. And yes, I know it sounds ridiculous to say Apple is a victim but it's still stealing and you're justifying it. Sounds a lot like the people who blame the rape victim for dressing "inappropriately" and "increasing the reward".
  - Daishiman 8y ago
    Dude, _nobody_ cares about the legality of it. We're looking at it from the market perspective. And in the market perspective Apple can do a lot of things to prevent this rather than whine about the obvious results of its policy. As a trillion-dollar company, I couldn't give less of a shit about its victimhood.
    - close04 8y ago