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It’s very simple: As a consumer, we cannot trust any advertisement company. Their goals are in direct conflict with user privacy. In fact it’s not a wishful goa
by fermienrico 8y ago
It’s very simple: As a consumer, we cannot trust any advertisement company. Their goals are in direct conflict with user privacy. In fact it’s not a wishful goal, it is their business model.
Our attention is very expensive and everything is designed around us to grab us by the neck so to speak. Flashing ads, stories and feeds.
I cannot, absolutely cannot, trust Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Adobe, Facebook, Visa, Amex, MasterCard, etc. These businesses bullshit their way through with “We want to make the world a better place by connecting people.” Yes, that’s great. So charge us for your service and stop forcing me to view ads, selling off my privacy into a giant bidding war of advertisers. Fuck advertisement.
Apple is an exception and I hope they continue to charge premium for their products. I’m happy to shell out money for privacy. But you never know when a multi billion dollar company all of a sudden decides to take a different route. Tim Cook has great personal ethics but we don’t know about the next CEO.
Mark my words: The next big successful companies will be around user privacy. Apple has started to market themselves as such already in their keynotes. Duckduckgo is selling it as their main value proposition.
Edit from comments below:
Amazon, Walmart, Sears, Netflix, Visa, Amex, MC.
- jakelazaroff 8y agoI agree in general, but what free ad-supported services do Adobe and Microsoft offer?
- bstn 8y agoBing?
- marmaduke 8y agoMaybe the recent open source efforts and GitHub thing: if devs aren’t paying..
- noxToken 8y agoAdobe[0] has an entire analytics/tracking platform. Microsoft is likely about the telemetry stuff happening in Windows 10. They're not supported by ads, but the tracking baking into the OS is a non-starter for a lot of tech folks. [0]:https://www.adobe.com/analytics/adobe-analytics.html https://www.adobe.com/analytics/adobe-analytics.html
- falcolas 8y agoMicrosoft may not be directly supported by ads, but they're happy to show you ads in your purchased install of Windows 10 for other Microsoft products (Halo, One Drive, etc.) EDIT: I'd be happier to hear why I'm incorrect in the place of downvotes.
- lozaning 8y agoCurious as to how you lump Adobe in with that group. Last I checked they just wanted everyone to buy photoshop, did something change? EDIT: Damn, F Adobe
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- iscrewyou 8y agohttps://techcrunch.com/2018/09/20/adobe-gets-its-company-snaring-marketo-for-4-75-billion/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/20/adobe-gets-its-company-sna... Edit: changed link from wsj to tc
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bstn 8y agoThey have trackers, as documented on https://better.fyi/trackers/ https://better.fyi/trackers/
- s3r3nity 8y agoAdobe has a massive DMP ("Data Management Platform.") I recommend taking some time to research DMPs and their place ad-tech ecosystem, if you're not aware about them, and be prepared to shit your pants at what they know about you.
- pmiller2 8y ago/s/buy photoshop/subscribe to Creative Suite/g and you’re right, IMO.
- John_KZ 8y agoFor one thing, Adobe reader will scan your Windows computer for documents and upload all the titles and authors to Adobe's servers. I don't know if they also upload content by now, but I would guess they probably just fingerprint it, not upload the whole thing. So yeah, Adobe isn't your friend. Of course neither is Apple (you know how obsessed HN seems to be with Apple)
- pmiller2 8y agoYou left off Amazon from the “can’t trust” list. IMO they would be there even if they hadn’t recently started expanding into advertising, because their business model seems to be to expand existing operations until there’s a critical mass, then slither off into an adjacent sector and repeat. And, just to round out the list, Netflix looks like one that’s actually trustworthy. They don’t advertise, and the info they have on me is pretty limited, anyway.
- fermienrico 8y agoThat's a good point about Amazon, I added it. Amazon has an incredible amount of data about my purchase history. I'll also add Amex, Visa, and MasterCard. Netflix - I am conflicted between the choice of giving up my privacy to provide better suggestions. How about I actively go research for a particular movie on my own? Why do I need AI telling me what to watch. Word of mouth is a fantastic way to get recommendations. On the other hand, I would have not found interesting music on Spotify if it wasn't for their recommendation system / radio.
- ThrustVectoring 8y agoNote that Netflix does not just use your data for making suggestions, but also for optimizing the content they create and buy.
- ConceptJunkie 8y agoThis would be relevant if Netflix's suggestions were any better than picking things at random. At least that's my experience.
- pmiller2 8y agoNo matter what you do, even if you don’t rate anything, Netflix knows what you watch, and whether you finished it. I would bet that information alone is almost as strong a signal as what you rate.
- 8y ago
- ilovecaching 8y agoI think what you’re missing is that you’re no longer the target of these companies. Second world countries like India and China are still coming online, have billions of potential users, having increasingly more wealth to spend on products, and have a different relationship with privacy and entitlement than those of us in North America and Europe. Right now the challenge is getting these people connected and dealing with the fact that they don’t have access to the best hardware. Many of them are also not past the point of requiring free service. So yeah, I think your view and predictions are comming from a narrow viewpoint that probably most people on HN see as the obvious majority when In reality you’re a shrinking user base in a changing global dynamic.
- fermienrico 8y agoUnfortunately, you are correct. Even in the US, the privacy discussion has recently picked up steam. These companies and their success is a testament to how they milked the US/Europe market already in past 10-15 years. And they have more to go where India and China are massive targets for expansion. However, I do think that the narrative is already being talked about in the US/Europe with GDPR, congressional testimony of CEOs and major focus on privacy leaks. Hopefully there will be government action. I don't know about China, India, Africa/etc. It is absolutely sickening what Facebook tried to do in India with "Free" internet for all. Thankfully, it was shot down at the government level. I would argue that my viewpoint is missing the extra expansion in APEC, but looking at the revenue numbers and big companies like Apple promoting privacy is an evidence of where the world is going to go.
- zer0zzz 8y agoYou are absolutely right.
- rlnddschn 8y agoDuckduckgo is an advertisement company.
- needz 8y agoTrue, but they serve up ads related to what you're searching for instead of building a profile about your demographic and interests.
- b_tterc_p 8y agoHe’s pointing out the conflict with the OP’s thesis “As a consumer, we cannot trust any advertisement company”
- John_KZ 8y agoThis is a very uncomfortable truth. For now it seems like they're better than Google, but the fact is we have no way of confirming it, and no guarantee it will stay like this in the long run.
- nbardy 8y agoWhy is Adobe in there? Are they really an ad company?
- kroltan 8y ago"Eat, drink, and breathe insights with Adobe Analytics." https://www.adobe.com/analytics/adobe-analytics.html https://www.adobe.com/analytics/adobe-analytics.html
- fermienrico 8y agoWow, that is indelibly awful - "If you're ready to make a culture of data, where insights are like oxygen and everyone acts on them in real time, then Adobe Analytics is ready for you." Who writes this stuff!?
- zer0zzz 8y agoNo one cares. The entire tech industry is built on producing products people don’t need to connect you to people you don’t like. The masses of people don’t care about any of this, and that includes the people that have the luxury to spend extra money on privacy.
- merpnderp 8y agoThat's a good point about "connect you to people you don't like." I was just thinking the other day about how the people I know in real life are likeable, but their online personalities are petty, bigoted, closed minded, and mean spirited. I don't know who's the real them, the people I know in person, or the person online. But for the most part, I wish I didn't know their online persona.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoThere's not much to be gained by not flinging poo online when everyone else is doing it. It's not like there's any reward for exceeding the lowest common denominator.
- loadedanvils 8y agoWhy should your personal standards be determined by other people? You have complete control over what you say online, there's no reason to compromise your personal integrity.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago>Why should your personal standards be determined by other people? People have been conforming to the norms of whatever group they're in for millennia. They're not going to stop now.
- esalman 8y agoThe problem is that people who understand the value of privacy are probably less than 1% of the total population. The rest don't understand or don't care and they are the target consumers of the said corporations. So simply logging out of Facebook or start buying Apple products yourself is not enough anymore. For the same reason I can't buy your prediction about next big successful companies, even if I would like to.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago> The problem is that people who understand the value of privacy are probably less than 1% of the total population. This is more than enough people to encourage public policy makers to make appropriate policy decisions, and failing that, run for office. Are you a squeaky wheel? If not, make yourself one.
- esalman 8y agoIt's funny because just this morning I came across and read through an article on how hard it has become for progressive minded people to run for, let alone actually get to the office. Here's the link if anyone is interested: http://idlewords.com/2018/10/portrait_of_a_campaign.htm http://idlewords.com/2018/10/portrait_of_a_campaign.htm Sorry if it sounds offensive, but I feel that we (hacker news crowd) really overestimate ourselves. Each one of our votes has the same weight as the rest of the population.
- mikeleeorg 8y agoThat's a very sobering article.
- esalman 8y agoIsn't it? It's sad that this wave of nationalist and right-wing mentality is taking over the world, Brazil being the latest example. My worst fear is that someone like, or worse, than Hitler will have to come along until this trend reverses itself.
- paulcole 8y ago> So charge us for your service and stop forcing me to view ads, selling off my privacy into a giant bidding war of advertisers. Fuck advertisement. Easy to say this if you have the money to pay for it which the vast majority of Americans do not.
- fermienrico 8y agoIt’s sad that internet is all free but an average American is OK with spending $105/month on a cable package and STILL be targeted with ads. What a world we live in. The problem is not that average person doesn’t have money, the problem is that these advertising giants have gotten people to expect that online services should be free (but in exchange for privacy).
- EGreg 8y agoThe next big thing is open source infrastructure projects https://qbix.com/blog/2017/08/20/centralization-and-open-source/ https://qbix.com/blog/2017/08/20/centralization-and-open-sou...
- pm90 8y agoIt isn't just those companies. Even retailers like Walmart, Sears etc. collect and sell your data. This is why loyalty cards provide so many discounts; its not just that they want to to be a repeat customer, but your habits are valuable for them to track and sell.
- blang 8y agoLike target figuring out your daughter is pregnant: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/shopping-habits....
- Kalium 8y agoI find some of the implications here very interesting. Apple is rapidly approaching the status of being a luxury goods brand. They certainly charge luxury goods prices. This implies that privacy is a luxury good. That isn't wrong, in a strictly factual and financial sense. There's money to be made invading privacy that certainly can help defray device costs. It's possible that some might opine that this might be less than fully right in an ethical sense, however...
- arthurcolle 8y agoPomme is totally lying about privacy. They are just a little more clever in how they portray themselves to the public. Everything is networked, and anyone with LS (maybe other tools exist, but LS certainly serves my needs well) can see how many times actions are taken in the form of outgoing requests on your primary content-creation/programming device that isn't just a passive device meant to consume content, and few people have the ability to participate as independent producers of gateways. And on a cell, you have zero visibiility at all. Its a different discussion, but the last time I looked, static IP on your "home" connection - $500 one time fee, and reasonable gigabit speeds in the age of new content? $200/mo. It is a farce that in 2018 Northeastern ISPs get away with 17Mb/s. You have to pay another gatekeeper when in principle I am another node on the network and have all the computers I would possibly need to run a high-availability web service. But back to la Pomme. They specifically push software updates to individual devices when you reach a certain expense level and cause devices to malfunction deliberately so you have to replace it. This has been documented but the IP lawyers shut you down when you start to talk about it because trade secrets. When they see you don't have AppleCare (or AppleCare+, or AppleCare++, whatever they want to call it) on a device they will deliberately cause that device to malfunction using a device-specific OTA update that causes things like dead pixels, and other visible obstructions that make the device slightly less usable than it was before. There is no privacy. If the above isn't the ultimate abrogation of privacy then I don't know what is. And if youre a pure Internet company, then you just don't even have to bother with all those gymnastics since the backend code is yours. Consumers need to start demanding more visibility into what exactly a company is doing. If they knew, I'm sure they would be outraged at the constant lies they are told. The charade has reached unbelievable proportions.
- throwaway5752 8y agoI know that Net Neutrality is boring, but remember that when it was repealed that Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Charter, and the rest now can directly inspect your traffic and inject ads into it.
- vmsp 8y agoI think you're completely wrong. You and I care about privacy and it feels like everyone does too because we're only getting signals from inside our own little tech bubble. People don't care about their privacy, it's a simple as that. At least not enough to stop using Facebook and whatnot. Most of my friends and acquaintances are software engineers and couldn't care less about Facebook's scandals and how it uses their data because they "use adblock, anyway". My less techy friends actually enjoy getting targeted ads since, at least, they're not completely inappropriate. Apple is indeed invested in the "we care about your privacy" narrative. Probably not our of the goodness of their hearts. It differentiates them from the competition even more and is yet another justification for their premiums. I agree with you, they're the good guys for now.
- echevil 8y agoMaybe those who care that much about privacy should use a complete different set of products. I, for one, would be more than happy to let Facebook/Google/Netflix/Yelp to use my personal data to customize their product to serve better content, better ads and better everything to me. I'm much more upset about Yelp when they keep recommending restaurants that I apparently won't care about even I've been feeding them so much information by checking into restaurants I actually like. I'd be glad if they share that information with Google/Facebook, who are much more likely to have better recommendation algorithms. I downloaded my Facebook history when they provided such a feature, and was completely unable to find anything interesting. Why would I care if they would protect my privacy or not. If protecting privacy leads to much worse user experience, I'd rather they don't
- andrei_says_ 8y agoWhat’s interesting in your Facebook history today is your daily route, when you use your phone, the people you’re connected to through two degrees of separation or by inhabiting the same locations at the same time, and also the provability to swing your vote on a few very particular issues.
- echevil 8y ago
- ma2rten 8y agoI don't think the next big company will around user privacy. You are willing to pay a premium for privacy, but the problem is most are not. They are happy to give up their privacy if they get something for free in exchange. Maybe that is going to change if there is more awareness around privacy, but then the big companies are going to adjust. You said we can't trust ANY advertisement company. I presume you mean companies funded by advertisement revenue. But then you actually give the counter example yourself: DuckDuckGo. I don't think the people that work at DDG and Apple are more trustworthy, but it's in their interest to take a pro-privacy stance. It differentiates them in the market. If the public cared more about privacy and would be willing to pay for it, existing companies would care about it too and potentially change their revenue models.