8 ms·

"Last year Greece stopped the European Union from criticising China’s human-rights record at a UN forum. Hungary and Greece prevented the EU from backing a cour

by illuminati1911 8y ago

"Last year Greece stopped the European Union from criticising China’s human-rights record at a UN forum. Hungary and Greece prevented the EU from backing a court ruling against China’s expansive territorial claims in the South China Sea. Faced with such behaviour, it is only prudent for Europeans to be nervous." Well that's one way of saying thanks for all those bailouts they received...

coldtea 8y ago
Yeah, unemployment at 40%, massive GDP drops, German banks happy, all kinds of anti-labour laws passed, exorbitant taxation, 5% of the most productive/young population left the country to work abroad, political supervision, those Greeks sure benefited much by those bailouts. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/08/11/greece-debt-crisis-bailout-germany-benefits/31449779/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/08/11/greece-debt-c... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-bailouts-idUSBRE9410CG20130502 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-bailouts-idUSBRE... https://global.handelsblatt.com/finance/germany-profits-from-greek-debt-crisis-796637 https://global.handelsblatt.com/finance/germany-profits-from...
- thefounder 8y ago
  I don't think defaulting could have turned out better. Once you take money you have to pay back. They got debt reduction as well so it's not like they are pay back the full amount. It's simply the result of bad governance that pilled up over the years.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    The worse estimation of defaulting (by people warning against it) where still better than today's numbers. And defaulting would have started a path towards reconstruction, whereas Greece now is just indefinitely held in life with an "artificial lung". (And the debt is actually the same than it was when the crisis started, so all the "bailout" did was to save the banks exposed to it using European's people's money, so instead of DB and other private banks now it's owed to ECB, the IMF and so on -- the same debt but under a much worsened infrastructure and economy, so even less chance of ever coming over).
    - timrichard 8y ago
      Which kinda sorta looks like German/French state aid, except that's completely against the rules...
      - disgruntledphd2 8y ago
        It was a bailout of large banks by stealth, much like what happened in Ireland. Timoty Geithner apocryphally refused to even countenance burning any bondholders in Ireland (or anywhere really) out of the risk of contagion. Now, Ireland has the 3rd highest debt per capita in the world, just after Japan and the US. Note that Japan and the US can print currency, while Ireland cannot. tl;dr totally a bailout by stealth. The worst part was that it created this horrible dynamic between different European countries, when really we should just have been blaming the banks.
- illuminati1911 8y ago
  The fact that they fucked up their economy again (even with unconditional free money) doesn't change a thing. They still received extreme economical help from the EU and the least they could do is not cause anymore trouble. Not to mention paying the money back.
  - tanilama 8y ago
    I think those EU money will need to be paid back one way or another. EU has a fundamental problem: it is a now a unified economical entity, but not a political one. Using Germany's money to bailout other countries' economy is frown upon by both sides, thus can't sustain.
  - Arn_Thor 8y ago
    The money was very much conditional. Mandatory austerity, for example, which crippled the state and economy as a whole with effects that could last a generation
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    >They still received extreme economical help from the EU The EU only tried to get Greece to pay back most its debt, at all costs (social/political/economical...). Who do you think they were helping the most: the big banks or the Greek citizens?
    - sgift 8y ago
      The banks obviously. If someone here says we "helped" Greece they either don't know better or lie. Plus, the bailouts were all credits. We Germans get money from the markets for 1% (or whatever the rate is at the moment), give it to Greece for 5%, make money as a lender (as long as Greece pays it back and we did make sure that they do, didn't we? First order: You pay back every credit. People are hungry? Irrelevant. First pay back credits) and then we have the audacity to call that a bailout and demand gratitude.
  - RobertoG 8y ago
    There is a very simple fact: in order to develop an economy you need investment, not austerity. There is not democratic country that would accept for its population what the Europeans have forced on Greece. You want Greece start thinking in the EU like "us" when they deal with China, but, at the same time, we Europeans, talk about how "they fucked" it. You can't have it both ways: or Greece are "us" or Greece are "they". In my opinion, the debt crisis showed them, and others, clearly that it's not* the former. *edited: added the 'not'.
- elorant 8y ago
  As a Greek I hardly blame EU for all of these. They are the result of incompetent politicians who stubbornly refuse to reform and a general population that has learned to live way past their means. And we haven't turn to China. It's just that our (incompetent) government has ties to communist parties because of their legacy. On the other hand, Greece-US relations are at their best phase in the last 40 years or so. We are and will always be a country that belongs to the West. Fuck China and fuck Russia too, and any other oppressive regiment out there.
- gutnor 8y ago
  I'm personally not exactly happy how the EU handled Greece, especially the harsh social consequences on its citizen that the EU could have smoothed and the lack of proper management of Greece "creative" accounting that let Greece join the EURO. But the EU did not cause the massive hole Greece dug for itself for years/decades. Reckoning was coming. The EU agreement was harsh, I think there could have been a softer version available, especially had Greece not been in the EURO. But outside the EU entirely, Greece would have eventually defaulted on its debt, and considering the insane amount of debt and massive budget imbalance that caused it in the first place, that would have sent the Drachma spiralling out of control. Without the backing of the EU, Greece would have had a hard time coming up with an economic and social plan to earn back some international credibility. It is unlikely it would have maintained inflation in control, but even if it did, high inflation would have been dramatic in an economy so reliant on import for basic necessities. It is extremely doubtful they would have been better off. One way (in the EU) or another Greece was looking at terrible consequences for their politicians mismanagements.
  - cinquemb 8y ago
    >But the EU did not cause the massive hole Greece dug for itself for years/decades. Reckoning was coming. Yes, and that "reckoning" was a digging bigger hole. The real reckoning is when European sovereign yields go through the roof when the ECB runs out of ammo…
    - RobertoG 8y ago
      The ECB can't "run out of ammo", but you are right that they could stop, for political reasons, financing the Euro countries covertly in the secondary market like they are doing now. Or maybe they just will keep that gun to the head and they will use that thread for running the show and impose more counter-cyclic policies. In that case the answer will come from the voters (like it's happening in Italy now).
      - pas 8y ago
        > In that case the answer will come from the voters (like it's happening in Italy now). Could you expand on this please, what's happening in Italy, how that connects to the ECB open market policies?
- jayalpha 8y ago
  Maybe they should never have joined the Euro? They already cheated to join with the help of Goldman Sachs. Not paying taxes, retirement with 50, not playing by the rules, people go blind very quick: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0430/Greek-island-of-the-blind-More-like-island-of-welfare-cheats https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0430/Greek-islan... There are only two options: 1. Leave the Euro (not the EU). See, what your new Drachma will be able to buy you. 2. Keep the Euro, negotiate a hair cut. Change how things are done in Greece.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago
I hope you are being ironic. The EU and the IMF pretty much screwed up Greece, this has even been admitted by the IMF themselves. https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2016/08/23/jthe-imf-sacrificed-greece-to-save-the-euro/#185716005b99 https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2016/08/23/jthe-imf... So I'm honestly not surprised that they turn to China, maybe the EU should treat their own countries decently (and I say this as a non-Greek EU citizen).
- secfirstmd 8y ago
  Greece pretty much screwed up Greece. Source: I'm Irish, we screwed up Ireland.
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    Ireland was surely screwed up by loose Eurozone monetary policy in the middle of its massive housing bubble.
    - secfirstmd 8y ago
      Yep
      - jessaustin 8y ago
        Ireland could hardly pursue appropriate monetary policy as a member of the currency union. Euro monetary policy is totally driven by Germany's needs. So are we saying that the real screw-up was joining the currency union?
    - barrkel 8y ago
      There are ways to mitigate that - e.g. increased taxes based on land value and stronger legislation around lending. Trouble is, rising house prices are more popular to politically powerful groups.
      - Brakenshire 8y ago
Vinnl 8y ago
Those bailouts were not given out of the good of the rest of Europe's hearts; the rest of Europe also benefits from these countries keeping themselves together. I don't think it's fair to subsequently expect them to just bend over and act on the whims of the other countries. We're a union, and we're in this together, as equals.
netcan 8y ago
That's an EU problem, not a China problem really. The EU (we) never really formed a polity. A constitution people believe in, a democratic process people are engaged with. Without that, it's very hard to have a core of collective (political) values. So, whether it's EU members playing realpolitik and preferring powerful friends to moral high grounds, or some members drifting away from liberal democracy... the EU is not really equipped to do anything. I've long thought that the EU has focused far too much on combining bureaucracy and too little on combining actual politics. Now that we're facing political challenges, there is no EU polity to deal with it. If we're faced with any major political or military conflict, the members will fall on multiple sides and the EU will be split.
icebraining 8y ago
Go read your Machiavelli. Even if it would be warranted - which is rather doubtful - gratitude has no place in geopolitics.
expertentipp 8y ago
> Well that's one way of saying thanks for all those bailouts they received... It's the banks and institutions from the bailing out countries who received the bailouts.
LoSboccacc 8y ago
> all those bailouts they received most of the bailout money went straight to Germany to buy back outstanding bonds in possession of their central bank ensuring they'd be insulated from further deterioration of the Greek economy. https://www.esmt.org/where-did-greek-bailout-money-go https://www.esmt.org/where-did-greek-bailout-money-go

coldtea 8y ago

Yeah, unemployment at 40%, massive GDP drops, German banks happy, all kinds of anti-labour laws passed, exorbitant taxation, 5% of the most productive/young population left the country to work abroad, political supervision, those Greeks sure benefited much by those bailouts. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/08/11/greece-debt-crisis-bailout-germany-benefits/31449779/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/08/11/greece-debt-c... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-bailouts-idUSBRE9410CG20130502 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-bailouts-idUSBRE... https://global.handelsblatt.com/finance/germany-profits-from-greek-debt-crisis-796637 https://global.handelsblatt.com/finance/germany-profits-from...

thefounder 8y ago
I don't think defaulting could have turned out better. Once you take money you have to pay back. They got debt reduction as well so it's not like they are pay back the full amount. It's simply the result of bad governance that pilled up over the years.
- coldtea 8y ago
  The worse estimation of defaulting (by people warning against it) where still better than today's numbers. And defaulting would have started a path towards reconstruction, whereas Greece now is just indefinitely held in life with an "artificial lung". (And the debt is actually the same than it was when the crisis started, so all the "bailout" did was to save the banks exposed to it using European's people's money, so instead of DB and other private banks now it's owed to ECB, the IMF and so on -- the same debt but under a much worsened infrastructure and economy, so even less chance of ever coming over).
  - timrichard 8y ago
    Which kinda sorta looks like German/French state aid, except that's completely against the rules...
    - disgruntledphd2 8y ago
      It was a bailout of large banks by stealth, much like what happened in Ireland. Timoty Geithner apocryphally refused to even countenance burning any bondholders in Ireland (or anywhere really) out of the risk of contagion. Now, Ireland has the 3rd highest debt per capita in the world, just after Japan and the US. Note that Japan and the US can print currency, while Ireland cannot. tl;dr totally a bailout by stealth. The worst part was that it created this horrible dynamic between different European countries, when really we should just have been blaming the banks.
illuminati1911 8y ago
The fact that they fucked up their economy again (even with unconditional free money) doesn't change a thing. They still received extreme economical help from the EU and the least they could do is not cause anymore trouble. Not to mention paying the money back.
- tanilama 8y ago
  I think those EU money will need to be paid back one way or another. EU has a fundamental problem: it is a now a unified economical entity, but not a political one. Using Germany's money to bailout other countries' economy is frown upon by both sides, thus can't sustain.
- Arn_Thor 8y ago
  The money was very much conditional. Mandatory austerity, for example, which crippled the state and economy as a whole with effects that could last a generation
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  >They still received extreme economical help from the EU The EU only tried to get Greece to pay back most its debt, at all costs (social/political/economical...). Who do you think they were helping the most: the big banks or the Greek citizens?
  - sgift 8y ago
    The banks obviously. If someone here says we "helped" Greece they either don't know better or lie. Plus, the bailouts were all credits. We Germans get money from the markets for 1% (or whatever the rate is at the moment), give it to Greece for 5%, make money as a lender (as long as Greece pays it back and we did make sure that they do, didn't we? First order: You pay back every credit. People are hungry? Irrelevant. First pay back credits) and then we have the audacity to call that a bailout and demand gratitude.
- RobertoG 8y ago
  There is a very simple fact: in order to develop an economy you need investment, not austerity. There is not democratic country that would accept for its population what the Europeans have forced on Greece. You want Greece start thinking in the EU like "us" when they deal with China, but, at the same time, we Europeans, talk about how "they fucked" it. You can't have it both ways: or Greece are "us" or Greece are "they". In my opinion, the debt crisis showed them, and others, clearly that it's not* the former. *edited: added the 'not'.
elorant 8y ago
As a Greek I hardly blame EU for all of these. They are the result of incompetent politicians who stubbornly refuse to reform and a general population that has learned to live way past their means. And we haven't turn to China. It's just that our (incompetent) government has ties to communist parties because of their legacy. On the other hand, Greece-US relations are at their best phase in the last 40 years or so. We are and will always be a country that belongs to the West. Fuck China and fuck Russia too, and any other oppressive regiment out there.
gutnor 8y ago
I'm personally not exactly happy how the EU handled Greece, especially the harsh social consequences on its citizen that the EU could have smoothed and the lack of proper management of Greece "creative" accounting that let Greece join the EURO. But the EU did not cause the massive hole Greece dug for itself for years/decades. Reckoning was coming. The EU agreement was harsh, I think there could have been a softer version available, especially had Greece not been in the EURO. But outside the EU entirely, Greece would have eventually defaulted on its debt, and considering the insane amount of debt and massive budget imbalance that caused it in the first place, that would have sent the Drachma spiralling out of control. Without the backing of the EU, Greece would have had a hard time coming up with an economic and social plan to earn back some international credibility. It is unlikely it would have maintained inflation in control, but even if it did, high inflation would have been dramatic in an economy so reliant on import for basic necessities. It is extremely doubtful they would have been better off. One way (in the EU) or another Greece was looking at terrible consequences for their politicians mismanagements.
- cinquemb 8y ago
  >But the EU did not cause the massive hole Greece dug for itself for years/decades. Reckoning was coming. Yes, and that "reckoning" was a digging bigger hole. The real reckoning is when European sovereign yields go through the roof when the ECB runs out of ammo…
  - RobertoG 8y ago
    The ECB can't "run out of ammo", but you are right that they could stop, for political reasons, financing the Euro countries covertly in the secondary market like they are doing now. Or maybe they just will keep that gun to the head and they will use that thread for running the show and impose more counter-cyclic policies. In that case the answer will come from the voters (like it's happening in Italy now).
    - pas 8y ago
      > In that case the answer will come from the voters (like it's happening in Italy now). Could you expand on this please, what's happening in Italy, how that connects to the ECB open market policies?
jayalpha 8y ago
Maybe they should never have joined the Euro? They already cheated to join with the help of Goldman Sachs. Not paying taxes, retirement with 50, not playing by the rules, people go blind very quick: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0430/Greek-island-of-the-blind-More-like-island-of-welfare-cheats https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0430/Greek-islan... There are only two options: 1. Leave the Euro (not the EU). See, what your new Drachma will be able to buy you. 2. Keep the Euro, negotiate a hair cut. Change how things are done in Greece.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Al-Khwarizmi 8y ago

I hope you are being ironic. The EU and the IMF pretty much screwed up Greece, this has even been admitted by the IMF themselves. https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2016/08/23/jthe-imf-sacrificed-greece-to-save-the-euro/#185716005b99 https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2016/08/23/jthe-imf... So I'm honestly not surprised that they turn to China, maybe the EU should treat their own countries decently (and I say this as a non-Greek EU citizen).

secfirstmd 8y ago
Greece pretty much screwed up Greece. Source: I'm Irish, we screwed up Ireland.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Ireland was surely screwed up by loose Eurozone monetary policy in the middle of its massive housing bubble.
  - secfirstmd 8y ago
    Yep
    - jessaustin 8y ago
      Ireland could hardly pursue appropriate monetary policy as a member of the currency union. Euro monetary policy is totally driven by Germany's needs. So are we saying that the real screw-up was joining the currency union?
  - barrkel 8y ago
    There are ways to mitigate that - e.g. increased taxes based on land value and stronger legislation around lending. Trouble is, rising house prices are more popular to politically powerful groups.
    - Brakenshire 8y ago

Vinnl 8y ago

Those bailouts were not given out of the good of the rest of Europe's hearts; the rest of Europe also benefits from these countries keeping themselves together. I don't think it's fair to subsequently expect them to just bend over and act on the whims of the other countries. We're a union, and we're in this together, as equals.

netcan 8y ago

That's an EU problem, not a China problem really. The EU (we) never really formed a polity. A constitution people believe in, a democratic process people are engaged with. Without that, it's very hard to have a core of collective (political) values. So, whether it's EU members playing realpolitik and preferring powerful friends to moral high grounds, or some members drifting away from liberal democracy... the EU is not really equipped to do anything. I've long thought that the EU has focused far too much on combining bureaucracy and too little on combining actual politics. Now that we're facing political challenges, there is no EU polity to deal with it. If we're faced with any major political or military conflict, the members will fall on multiple sides and the EU will be split.

icebraining 8y ago

Go read your Machiavelli. Even if it would be warranted - which is rather doubtful - gratitude has no place in geopolitics.

expertentipp 8y ago

> Well that's one way of saying thanks for all those bailouts they received... It's the banks and institutions from the bailing out countries who received the bailouts.

LoSboccacc 8y ago

> all those bailouts they received most of the bailout money went straight to Germany to buy back outstanding bonds in possession of their central bank ensuring they'd be insulated from further deterioration of the Greek economy. https://www.esmt.org/where-did-greek-bailout-money-go https://www.esmt.org/where-did-greek-bailout-money-go