7 ms·

I really like Toronto, but cost of living is high (one of the largest housing bubbles in the world, high taxes), salaries are low and jobs (not only in tech) ar

I really like Toronto, but cost of living is high (one of the largest housing bubbles in the world, high taxes), salaries are low and jobs (not only in tech) are scarce. In the States you won't find engineers, doctors, accountants working in the supermarkets/starbucks. Go to any store in Richmond Hill/North York and you will see plenty. There is an ugly truth that people don't like to discuss much, Canada accepts too many professional immigrants relative to the number of available jobs. The proportion of underemployed immigrants is astounding (people who either have to work in unrelated fields or a few levels below their skills). Most of what you mentioned is true, but it's also true that in the States it's much easier to make a living or have a fulfilling career for a professional.

3pt14159 8y ago
Martin you can rent a room in Toronto for $850 with a single housemate. It's no where near that in the valley. What other major costs are there? Healthcare is covered. Dental is <$1k / year. Vision is <$1k / year. Food is way cheaper than SF. Less on accountant fees, less on legal fees, less on anything I can think of, really.
- lhorie 8y ago
  I really don't understand where people get the idea that housing is expensive in Toronto. You can rent a room in a rental home in scarborough or etobicoke for as low as a few hundred dollars. You'd share a house with a dozen people sure, but you typically get a private room at least. The cheapest I've been able to find in SF was $600 for sharing a _room_ with half a dozen people.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    > a few hundred dollars Ya, I'm not buying this. Maybe 12 students sharing a 4/5 bedroom house that is a mid-distance walk from bus transit that requires you to transfer to a another bus/subway to get you where you're going. If you're a software dev and properly value your time, this type of housing is a no-go.
    - lhorie 8y ago
      Sure, you can always pay more once you are out of school and can afford something nicer. I used to share a 3 bed apt with two guys near union station, paid $400. Then moved to bachelor at christie, paid $750. Eventually got a detached in a nice neighbourhood w/ a 2k/mo mortgage. Housing was affordable every step of the way. The point is that it's feasible for a 3rd world person to save up, move to Toronto, and still have a private living space while working towards home ownership, whereas SF struggles pretty hard with homelessness of even full-fledged american citizens.
      - Scoundreller 8y ago
        3 bed apt near Union Station for $1200/month? Maybe 10+ years ago. Even over the past 2 years, rent prices have increased aggressively. Nowadays, you're lucky to spend just north of $2000/month for a 2 bedroom.
        lhorie 8y ago
        > 3 bed apt near Union Station for $1200/month? Maybe 10+ years ago. It was 10+ years ago, sure, but also I had the smallest room (actually a den) so I paid the least. The total rent was 1500 IIRC for what was technically a 2bed+den. I just googled and rent for the same type of apt in that building is going for around $2000 as you said. So if I were to have the same rent splitting arrangement today, I'd probably be paying around $600, maybe $700 for a better room. Which, remember, is around the same as the 3-bunk-bed-room deal-of-the-century in SF. Also consider my salary back then was CAD 37k. Nowadays a person w/ 1-2 yrs angular experience can land a CAD 100k job fairly easily. My wife sees new grads getting 75k at CGI fresh out of school. The real estate bubble popped too, so it's definitely a buyers market now for those who were eyeing home ownership.
  - thatfrenchguy 8y ago
    « Renting a room » is not considered decent living for a lot of people.
- martin_iden 8y ago
  Are we comparing apples to apples? You can also find a room on peninsula for 1200-1500 with one housemate. A 2 bedroom apartment in Toronto in a neighborhood similar to where I live here in SV is going to be 2800/3000 CAD, I am paying 3K USD now. Car insurance $70 per month for 2 cars here, I used to pay $380 per month in Canada. My PGE bill is $50-70, in Toronto hydro/gas are going to be at least twice that. My brother paid $400 a month in heating costs last winter (4 year old insulated house). How about $10 beers, $30 entrees in restaurants (not fancy, just regular ones), more expensive gas, activities for kids. It all adds up. And you're missing the point, it's not that prices are high in absolute terms, but relative to salaries (which are very low). i'd be happy to come back to be close to my family, but I can't afford to take a 50%+ pay cut.
  - 3pt14159 8y ago
    Dude I just got into a new place at Dovercourt and Dundas. I'm on the second floor of desirable house paying $850 CAD ($650 USD). Yes you can spend $3k CAD on a shiny new two-bedroom midrise condo if you want to, but that's the exception. Most people live in places that cost between $600 to $1200 per person. Max $2k ($1.5k USD) if you live alone. Nobody I know is paying $400 in heating. That's northern Ontario electric baseboard heating rates. My total electricity bill for all of 2016 was $400. Beer is not $10. It is $7. Entrees are $14 ($11 USD), not $30. You're missing my point. I was making $200k+ at 27 in 2012. You can make money here. It's not SV high, true, but it is high enough. There are other things that matter than raw salary.
    - martin_iden 8y ago
      OK, so 2K for a single person if living along. I guess for a family of 3, you'd need to up that budget by at least 500. My brother is a real estate agent who does a lot of rentals downtown and midtown. He says you'd need to budget around 4.20CAD per sq.ft. It can go higher depending on the layout and views. Rents have risen significantly in the last couple of years. We can back and forth about beer/food costs, I'd lived in Toronto for 8 years (North York - 3 years, Downtown - St.George/Bloor - 4 years and 1 year on Eglington/Younge so I know what I talking about). Can you name 3 companies in Toronto that pay 200K+ in real money (salary, bonus, stock that you can actually sell)? My friends are telling me 110-115K is a VERY decent salary, maybe they are just working for wrong companies.
t1o5 8y ago
It's not because Canada is accepting a lot of professionals relative to the lesser number of jobs. Canada's institutions do not accept the immigrant professional's academic credentials, training or their work experience. A general nurse with 15 years of work experience from India cannot practice the same job duties in Canada due to this restrictions. So they resort to other jobs like home care. A lot of immigrant nurses in Québec who are from India and Philippines are working in factories now because Québec nurse's association do not recognize their nursing degrees. The doctors who immigrate drive taxis in Toronto because their credentials are not recognized. Unlike in the US, for some reason Canadian regulatory bodies have a hard time recognizing credentials of immigrant professionals there by forcing them to take up another job. A colleague tells me there is this Canadian doctor's and nurses lobby which "protects" the Canadian professional order from immigrant professionals who have come to take up their jobs. Right now, only IT professionals are accepted as they are. Every other professionals immigrating to Canada should be prepared to re certify their professions or take up additional courses.

3pt14159 8y ago

Martin you can rent a room in Toronto for $850 with a single housemate. It's no where near that in the valley. What other major costs are there? Healthcare is covered. Dental is <$1k / year. Vision is <$1k / year. Food is way cheaper than SF. Less on accountant fees, less on legal fees, less on anything I can think of, really.

lhorie 8y ago
I really don't understand where people get the idea that housing is expensive in Toronto. You can rent a room in a rental home in scarborough or etobicoke for as low as a few hundred dollars. You'd share a house with a dozen people sure, but you typically get a private room at least. The cheapest I've been able to find in SF was $600 for sharing a _room_ with half a dozen people.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  > a few hundred dollars Ya, I'm not buying this. Maybe 12 students sharing a 4/5 bedroom house that is a mid-distance walk from bus transit that requires you to transfer to a another bus/subway to get you where you're going. If you're a software dev and properly value your time, this type of housing is a no-go.
  - lhorie 8y ago
    Sure, you can always pay more once you are out of school and can afford something nicer. I used to share a 3 bed apt with two guys near union station, paid $400. Then moved to bachelor at christie, paid $750. Eventually got a detached in a nice neighbourhood w/ a 2k/mo mortgage. Housing was affordable every step of the way. The point is that it's feasible for a 3rd world person to save up, move to Toronto, and still have a private living space while working towards home ownership, whereas SF struggles pretty hard with homelessness of even full-fledged american citizens.
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      3 bed apt near Union Station for $1200/month? Maybe 10+ years ago. Even over the past 2 years, rent prices have increased aggressively. Nowadays, you're lucky to spend just north of $2000/month for a 2 bedroom.
      - lhorie 8y ago
        > 3 bed apt near Union Station for $1200/month? Maybe 10+ years ago. It was 10+ years ago, sure, but also I had the smallest room (actually a den) so I paid the least. The total rent was 1500 IIRC for what was technically a 2bed+den. I just googled and rent for the same type of apt in that building is going for around $2000 as you said. So if I were to have the same rent splitting arrangement today, I'd probably be paying around $600, maybe $700 for a better room. Which, remember, is around the same as the 3-bunk-bed-room deal-of-the-century in SF. Also consider my salary back then was CAD 37k. Nowadays a person w/ 1-2 yrs angular experience can land a CAD 100k job fairly easily. My wife sees new grads getting 75k at CGI fresh out of school. The real estate bubble popped too, so it's definitely a buyers market now for those who were eyeing home ownership.
- thatfrenchguy 8y ago
  « Renting a room » is not considered decent living for a lot of people.
martin_iden 8y ago
Are we comparing apples to apples? You can also find a room on peninsula for 1200-1500 with one housemate. A 2 bedroom apartment in Toronto in a neighborhood similar to where I live here in SV is going to be 2800/3000 CAD, I am paying 3K USD now. Car insurance $70 per month for 2 cars here, I used to pay $380 per month in Canada. My PGE bill is $50-70, in Toronto hydro/gas are going to be at least twice that. My brother paid $400 a month in heating costs last winter (4 year old insulated house). How about $10 beers, $30 entrees in restaurants (not fancy, just regular ones), more expensive gas, activities for kids. It all adds up. And you're missing the point, it's not that prices are high in absolute terms, but relative to salaries (which are very low). i'd be happy to come back to be close to my family, but I can't afford to take a 50%+ pay cut.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  Dude I just got into a new place at Dovercourt and Dundas. I'm on the second floor of desirable house paying $850 CAD ($650 USD). Yes you can spend $3k CAD on a shiny new two-bedroom midrise condo if you want to, but that's the exception. Most people live in places that cost between $600 to $1200 per person. Max $2k ($1.5k USD) if you live alone. Nobody I know is paying $400 in heating. That's northern Ontario electric baseboard heating rates. My total electricity bill for all of 2016 was $400. Beer is not $10. It is $7. Entrees are $14 ($11 USD), not $30. You're missing my point. I was making $200k+ at 27 in 2012. You can make money here. It's not SV high, true, but it is high enough. There are other things that matter than raw salary.
  - martin_iden 8y ago
    OK, so 2K for a single person if living along. I guess for a family of 3, you'd need to up that budget by at least 500. My brother is a real estate agent who does a lot of rentals downtown and midtown. He says you'd need to budget around 4.20CAD per sq.ft. It can go higher depending on the layout and views. Rents have risen significantly in the last couple of years. We can back and forth about beer/food costs, I'd lived in Toronto for 8 years (North York - 3 years, Downtown - St.George/Bloor - 4 years and 1 year on Eglington/Younge so I know what I talking about). Can you name 3 companies in Toronto that pay 200K+ in real money (salary, bonus, stock that you can actually sell)? My friends are telling me 110-115K is a VERY decent salary, maybe they are just working for wrong companies.

t1o5 8y ago

It's not because Canada is accepting a lot of professionals relative to the lesser number of jobs. Canada's institutions do not accept the immigrant professional's academic credentials, training or their work experience. A general nurse with 15 years of work experience from India cannot practice the same job duties in Canada due to this restrictions. So they resort to other jobs like home care. A lot of immigrant nurses in Québec who are from India and Philippines are working in factories now because Québec nurse's association do not recognize their nursing degrees. The doctors who immigrate drive taxis in Toronto because their credentials are not recognized. Unlike in the US, for some reason Canadian regulatory bodies have a hard time recognizing credentials of immigrant professionals there by forcing them to take up another job. A colleague tells me there is this Canadian doctor's and nurses lobby which "protects" the Canadian professional order from immigrant professionals who have come to take up their jobs. Right now, only IT professionals are accepted as they are. Every other professionals immigrating to Canada should be prepared to re certify their professions or take up additional courses.