5 ms·

The half-of-salary thing is a bit rich. Tech people unknowingly push up their second or third sigma downside in America and cost of living is hard to compare. I

The half-of-salary thing is a bit rich. Tech people unknowingly push up their second or third sigma downside in America and cost of living is hard to compare. In America you're more likely to get violently harmed. More likely to become truly poor. More likely to develop life-long medical conditions. Don't have actuarially balanced government pension (SS accounting is off book, CPP is fully funded). Higher net-debt-to-GDP. Broken political system. It's a pretty long list of nice-to-haves up here. If you're in the class of programmer than can half your salary by moving to Canada you're still going to be earning at the very least $120k in Toronto, and that's all that shitty. I continue to choose to live in a common wealth (in the old sense of the term) for a reason.

sheepmullet 8y ago
> In America you're more likely to get violently harmed As far as I can tell this is not really true. There are small areas in the US with extreme violence and it skews the overall statistics. > More likely to become truly poor Again I’m not sure this is true for a programmer - every year I save 2-3 years worth of living costs. > earning at the very least $120k in Toronto What is the cost of a decent 3-4 bedroom house in Toronto fairly close to work? If it’s anything like Vancouver then $120k is not enough.
martin_iden 8y ago
I really like Toronto, but cost of living is high (one of the largest housing bubbles in the world, high taxes), salaries are low and jobs (not only in tech) are scarce. In the States you won't find engineers, doctors, accountants working in the supermarkets/starbucks. Go to any store in Richmond Hill/North York and you will see plenty. There is an ugly truth that people don't like to discuss much, Canada accepts too many professional immigrants relative to the number of available jobs. The proportion of underemployed immigrants is astounding (people who either have to work in unrelated fields or a few levels below their skills). Most of what you mentioned is true, but it's also true that in the States it's much easier to make a living or have a fulfilling career for a professional.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  Martin you can rent a room in Toronto for $850 with a single housemate. It's no where near that in the valley. What other major costs are there? Healthcare is covered. Dental is <$1k / year. Vision is <$1k / year. Food is way cheaper than SF. Less on accountant fees, less on legal fees, less on anything I can think of, really.
  - lhorie 8y ago
    I really don't understand where people get the idea that housing is expensive in Toronto. You can rent a room in a rental home in scarborough or etobicoke for as low as a few hundred dollars. You'd share a house with a dozen people sure, but you typically get a private room at least. The cheapest I've been able to find in SF was $600 for sharing a _room_ with half a dozen people.
    - Scoundreller 8y ago
      > a few hundred dollars Ya, I'm not buying this. Maybe 12 students sharing a 4/5 bedroom house that is a mid-distance walk from bus transit that requires you to transfer to a another bus/subway to get you where you're going. If you're a software dev and properly value your time, this type of housing is a no-go.
      - lhorie 8y ago
        Sure, you can always pay more once you are out of school and can afford something nicer. I used to share a 3 bed apt with two guys near union station, paid $400. Then moved to bachelor at christie, paid $750. Eventually got a detached in a nice neighbourhood w/ a 2k/mo mortgage. Housing was affordable every step of the way. The point is that it's feasible for a 3rd world person to save up, move to Toronto, and still have a private living space while working towards home ownership, whereas SF struggles pretty hard with homelessness of even full-fledged american citizens.
        Scoundreller 8y ago
dominotw 8y ago
>In America you're more likely to get violently harmed. More likely to become truly poor. all these only apply to lower income ppl in US not to ppl on h1b, they can simply move back to higher middle class in India if things go wrong.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  I can't tell if this comment is ironic or not. But I'll bite anyway. The choice is between H1B in Canada vs H1B in US. Presumably permanent residency is the plan, so "simply moving back to India" isn't the plan if things go wrong 5 years later.
  - dominotw 8y ago
    You can move back to India even if you take up US/Canadian citizenship on your PIO card.
  - bdamm 8y ago
    It's hard to ignore the trolls. The phrase "simply move back" is always a clear flag that someone has no idea what they're talking about.
    - dominotw 8y ago
      Ok man. whatever. I know tons of ppl who moved back, to start their own business, to take care of aging parents, to retire, for their kids schooling. It is really a viable option if you become "truly poor" in USA.
      - bdamm 8y ago
        Sure, but its also a big sacrifice that is a larger sacrifice than, say, moving to another state. Sure, people do it, but it's expensive, time consuming, disruptive, and stressful. And there are additional financial implications such as currency exchange and repaying debts (if you care about your old credit rating) in a different currency, along with transmitting money across borders. Not everyone can just cash out debts. So yeah, it's possible, but it is no walk in the park.
stale2002 8y ago
All of the problems that you mention pretty easily solved by having money. And in the US, programmers are much more capable of getting that money in the first place. For example, the chance of getting violently harmed, is solved by living in a good neighborhood. The problem of healthcare is solved by paying for good health insurance. The issue of retirement is solved by putting lots of your money into a retirement account. Life really is quite amazing for people in the upper 10%, in america. And programmers easily fall into that category.

sheepmullet 8y ago

> In America you're more likely to get violently harmed As far as I can tell this is not really true. There are small areas in the US with extreme violence and it skews the overall statistics. > More likely to become truly poor Again I’m not sure this is true for a programmer - every year I save 2-3 years worth of living costs. > earning at the very least $120k in Toronto What is the cost of a decent 3-4 bedroom house in Toronto fairly close to work? If it’s anything like Vancouver then $120k is not enough.

martin_iden 8y ago

I really like Toronto, but cost of living is high (one of the largest housing bubbles in the world, high taxes), salaries are low and jobs (not only in tech) are scarce. In the States you won't find engineers, doctors, accountants working in the supermarkets/starbucks. Go to any store in Richmond Hill/North York and you will see plenty. There is an ugly truth that people don't like to discuss much, Canada accepts too many professional immigrants relative to the number of available jobs. The proportion of underemployed immigrants is astounding (people who either have to work in unrelated fields or a few levels below their skills). Most of what you mentioned is true, but it's also true that in the States it's much easier to make a living or have a fulfilling career for a professional.

3pt14159 8y ago
Martin you can rent a room in Toronto for $850 with a single housemate. It's no where near that in the valley. What other major costs are there? Healthcare is covered. Dental is <$1k / year. Vision is <$1k / year. Food is way cheaper than SF. Less on accountant fees, less on legal fees, less on anything I can think of, really.
- lhorie 8y ago
  I really don't understand where people get the idea that housing is expensive in Toronto. You can rent a room in a rental home in scarborough or etobicoke for as low as a few hundred dollars. You'd share a house with a dozen people sure, but you typically get a private room at least. The cheapest I've been able to find in SF was $600 for sharing a _room_ with half a dozen people.
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    > a few hundred dollars Ya, I'm not buying this. Maybe 12 students sharing a 4/5 bedroom house that is a mid-distance walk from bus transit that requires you to transfer to a another bus/subway to get you where you're going. If you're a software dev and properly value your time, this type of housing is a no-go.
    - lhorie 8y ago
      Sure, you can always pay more once you are out of school and can afford something nicer. I used to share a 3 bed apt with two guys near union station, paid $400. Then moved to bachelor at christie, paid $750. Eventually got a detached in a nice neighbourhood w/ a 2k/mo mortgage. Housing was affordable every step of the way. The point is that it's feasible for a 3rd world person to save up, move to Toronto, and still have a private living space while working towards home ownership, whereas SF struggles pretty hard with homelessness of even full-fledged american citizens.
      - Scoundreller 8y ago

dominotw 8y ago

>In America you're more likely to get violently harmed. More likely to become truly poor. all these only apply to lower income ppl in US not to ppl on h1b, they can simply move back to higher middle class in India if things go wrong.

3pt14159 8y ago
I can't tell if this comment is ironic or not. But I'll bite anyway. The choice is between H1B in Canada vs H1B in US. Presumably permanent residency is the plan, so "simply moving back to India" isn't the plan if things go wrong 5 years later.
- dominotw 8y ago
  You can move back to India even if you take up US/Canadian citizenship on your PIO card.
- bdamm 8y ago
  It's hard to ignore the trolls. The phrase "simply move back" is always a clear flag that someone has no idea what they're talking about.
  - dominotw 8y ago
    Ok man. whatever. I know tons of ppl who moved back, to start their own business, to take care of aging parents, to retire, for their kids schooling. It is really a viable option if you become "truly poor" in USA.
    - bdamm 8y ago
      Sure, but its also a big sacrifice that is a larger sacrifice than, say, moving to another state. Sure, people do it, but it's expensive, time consuming, disruptive, and stressful. And there are additional financial implications such as currency exchange and repaying debts (if you care about your old credit rating) in a different currency, along with transmitting money across borders. Not everyone can just cash out debts. So yeah, it's possible, but it is no walk in the park.

stale2002 8y ago

All of the problems that you mention pretty easily solved by having money. And in the US, programmers are much more capable of getting that money in the first place. For example, the chance of getting violently harmed, is solved by living in a good neighborhood. The problem of healthcare is solved by paying for good health insurance. The issue of retirement is solved by putting lots of your money into a retirement account. Life really is quite amazing for people in the upper 10%, in america. And programmers easily fall into that category.