8 ms·

As someone who is contemplating this move, I can share some thoughts. First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Cana

As someone who is contemplating this move, I can share some thoughts. First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc. Among the people I know and including myself, the top driving forces are safety, good governance, clean air and water. While living in the US has the benefit of higher pay, it comes at a significant cost. Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc. It’s true that all of these have a common theme that they all generate some sort of income. However, for most of us, the income isn’t the driving force. All of us have a drive to express ourselves creatively and do fun things once in a while (mine dogecoin), the implications of the current green card wait is that we can’t participate in any of these for decades. Canada is very appealing because of the hassle free immigration process. Once in Canada, there is liberty to pursue hobbies. These come with benefits of safety, good governance and clean air/water. The lower pay is a very minor price for getting all of this.

jarsin 8y ago
OMG you can't mine dogecoin? GTFO. Impeach Trump!
pshc 8y ago
re: crypto mining, that’s funny. I thought a passive activity like crypto mining is allowed as long as one doesn’t actively “work” on it. Maybe the NAFTA/USMCA rules are different?
- bdcravens 8y ago
  Mining is one thing, selling for a profit is where I think you run afoul. (IANAL)
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    That’s just investment income afaik. Pretty sure this is okay so long as you’re not day trading.
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      The real problem here is that you can't stake your and your family's future on being "pretty sure" that a random immigration bureaucrat will see it that way, so the only sane thing to do is avoid anything with even slight risk. (Or move to Canada.)
      - arcticbull 8y ago
        Well, I'm pretty sure, but an immigration attorney will be confident :)
    - bdcravens 8y ago
      I think it would be seen more as manufacturing income.
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  How is crypto mining anything different than gold mining? If I invest in $$$ equipment and land to mine gold, do I only pay capital gains taxes for the value of the gold mined? Of course not.
r00fus 8y ago
Well, most of the US is more temperate than most of Canada. So better like the cold/snow. Given the current US administration it might be a good trade. Of course, the great Canadian conspiracy of promoting global warming to equalize that benefit may turn the tables in a couple of decades or so... /snark
- eloff 8y ago
  Canada is super environmentally conscious. I don't know where you get the idea from that we promote global warming, except as being a petroleum exporter (the US is a much bigger petroleum producer.) I can think of one glaring example of climate change denial among developed nations, however...
  - stevenwoo 8y ago
    Which part of Canada and what kind of environmentally conscious? The mining companies in Canada don't seem too particularly environmentally conscious according to the older Canadian news article that aligns with my memory. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/10/19/canadian_mining_firms_worst_for_environment_rights_report.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/10/19/canadian_mini... Also, the a large majority of wells in Canada are now fracking wells so fresh water contamination is a consideration as well, it seems to be regulated on a province by province basis.
    - eloff 8y ago
      Are mining companies anywhere environmentally conscious anymore than they have to be? The people and politics of Canada are in favor of combating climate change in many respects. Not like the US withdrawing from the Paris accords.
      - stevenwoo 8y ago
        75% of mining companies are based in Canada. I'm surprised they are not based in the Cayman Islands or offshore but they choose Canada for favorable legal treatment and lax oversight. https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/wdb4j5/75-of-the-worlds-mining-companies-are-based-in-canada https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/wdb4j5/75-of-the-worlds-m... I'm sure otherwise Canada is environmentally woke, and America's coal barons could give Canada's mining companies a run for the environmentally unfit / socially unsound money.
cam3ham 8y ago
To add to this - universal health care. This is very important for immigrants who have families. Basically, immigrating to Canada means you have freedom, stability, and health for you and your loved ones.
loftyal 8y ago
I've spoken to an H1B lawyer about this, You can actually monetize your online work, just as long as the freelance company is not American. You can start up a limited company in your home country and get paid into a bank account there.
- timewarrior 8y ago
  This is bad advice. It is really risky to do this and you can be barred from US forever. Lawyers can give bad advice, and you need to triple-check non conventional advice. I used a lawyer who is really popular with YC companies. He gave me really bad advise, none of it worked eventually and I had to leave US eventually. Be very conservative and careful when dealing with Immigration laws. Especially with the current environment.
- wenc 8y ago
  This is incorrect and dangerous advice.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  What matters is where you are physically located when performing the work not where the company that owns the work product is incorporated from a US immigration perspective. You should double check this with another attorney.
nostromo 8y ago
What the article failed to mention is that Trump and the Republican Congress have called for the US to change our immigration system to be more like Canada's. That is: focusing on skills and merit and limiting extended-family migration. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/trump-cotton-perdue-merit-based-immigration-system/518985/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/trump-c... Right now the majority of legal immigration to the US is based on having family in the US. The US has a much more expansive view of family unification than does Canada -- for example an adult in the US can sponsor their adult siblings and all of their children, spouses, and parents for citizenship -- which is not something you can do in Canada. Once citizens, all of those folks can then sponsor their extended family for family reunification migration as well. https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/images/US_vs._Canada_1.29_1517253452.png https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/images/US_vs._Canada_1... This kind of proposal would be good for people currently on H1B that would like to become citizens. However, the cost would be far fewer extended-family reunification immigrants.
- marcell 8y ago
  I've seen this, but I'm skeptical of the approach. I don't think there is a lot of political appetite in DC to help tech companies in general. Both parties would rather use tech companies as a industry to bash, rather than an industry to nurture and grow. Look at the bi-partisan hate for Facebook and Google. Regardless of how you feel about the privacy issues there, it is clear that neither party is particularly friendly to the needs of Silicon Valley. While the merit based immigration idea is nice, I think it will fail for the following reasons: - Trump is not putting his political weight behind it. It was floated as an interesting policy proposal, but he didn't put his weight behind it like he did for say tax reform, ACA repeal, etc. - As mentioned above, neither party is especially driven to help Silicon Valley - While it may help Silicon Valley and tech companies, this change also really hurts people who count on family based immigration to bring their loved ones into the country. I don't think it would be politically popular to cut off family based immigration to help tech companies. I think if Trump (or Obama etc.) wanted to help the situation, the simplest path forward is through executive action. Trump (or Obama etc.) can easily change the priorities and internal policies of INS to make it easier for tech workers to come to America, within the bounds of current law.
ketcomp 8y ago
> tutor students in India or any country online, I am a volunteer teacher at evidyaloka - a Bengaluru based NGO founded by two ex-techies - while working in the States! I don't know if you already know about this but thought it was worth pointing out :)
latte 8y ago
>> Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized That's weird. I cannot even imagine what the rationale for introducing these restrictions could be. Normally, working restrictions for immigrants serve to protect the wages of the local work force, but in this case they only make the migrants' lives less fulfilling.
- xtreme 8y ago
  USCIS considers pretty much everything that results in monetary gains (other than investing) as "working". Even renting your own house counts as working, so people on H1B can't do that either.
  - asdfx 8y ago
    I do not think this is true.
    - sumitgt 8y ago
      It is.
  - jxi 8y ago
    Is that true? I know that renting an investment property (with a property manager) is fine because it counts as passive income where you aren't working a second job. I'm not sure why renting your own house would really be different.
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    Not exactly, you can rent your house, that’s considered passive income like any other investment (so long as you don’t day trade), which is fine, to the best of my knowledge. You can’t have anything that even resembles a job, either paid (active income) OR unpaid if it may replace a paid US worker.
  - huy-nguyen 8y ago
    That’s not true. Passive income (like renting out your room/house) is not considered work unless you spent a lot of time on it e.g. AirBnB.
techie128 8y ago
I have 3 offers to write books. I, unfortunately, cannot do that due to the H-1B visa restriction. I have been in US legally for over a decade, making 350K+ annually. Our HH income is 700K USD. Before someone jumps in and say but why don't you apply for a EB5 greencard, it's not so simple either. It is 600K (500K + legal and other fees) of my hard earned money down the drain with ZERO certainty of a greencard for YEARS. I would rather go to Canada when my spouse cannot work here any more (H4 EAD Revocation) than to continue contributing to the US economy where people like us are not cared for.
- timewarrior 8y ago
  This was a good decision ref EB-5. Currently, if there is any crazy possibility, USCIS will reject your petition. EB-5 will take 2-3 years and you don't know how things will be then or even if the program will be around then. USCIS will refund your fees, but you will be out lawyer fees and investment. Move to Canada. You can start your own company in Canada. Salaries are lower and government gives back a good chunk of developer salaries to the company. You will also get some stability in life. As you get older, it is more difficult to immigrate to other countries.
- nambit 8y ago
  How does your wife get to 350K+ annually on an H4? That's insane.
  - timewarrior 8y ago
    It’s not really insane. Many a times, there are skilled spouses who can’t get an H1 because of lottery or some other issue. My spouse had an illustrious career in India and did an MBA in US. She made a lot more than 350k per year and she was on H4 too. One of my friend’s spouse is a Director in a company. Her company screwed up her Green Card. So she couldn’t extend her H1 beyond 6 years. She had to move to H4 too.
    - NTDF9 8y ago
      > Her company screwed up her Green Card. So she couldn’t extend her H1 beyond 6 years. She had to move to H4 too What was the screw up?
kwoff 8y ago
Good luck in your move out of the US!
sumitgt 8y ago
Thank you. As the top comment on the article, you have clearly and succinctly expressed everything I have felt.
qubax 8y ago
> First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc. Sorry, I don't believe you. The median income in india is between $500-$1000. The media income in the US is $35000. You seriously claiming money isn't the driving force? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income > Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc. "Make and sell art"? Dogecoin? It's hard to take you seriously when this is the list you provided.

jarsin 8y ago

OMG you can't mine dogecoin? GTFO. Impeach Trump!

pshc 8y ago

re: crypto mining, that’s funny. I thought a passive activity like crypto mining is allowed as long as one doesn’t actively “work” on it. Maybe the NAFTA/USMCA rules are different?

bdcravens 8y ago
Mining is one thing, selling for a profit is where I think you run afoul. (IANAL)
- arcticbull 8y ago
  That’s just investment income afaik. Pretty sure this is okay so long as you’re not day trading.
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    The real problem here is that you can't stake your and your family's future on being "pretty sure" that a random immigration bureaucrat will see it that way, so the only sane thing to do is avoid anything with even slight risk. (Or move to Canada.)
    - arcticbull 8y ago
      Well, I'm pretty sure, but an immigration attorney will be confident :)
  - bdcravens 8y ago
    I think it would be seen more as manufacturing income.
Scoundreller 8y ago
How is crypto mining anything different than gold mining? If I invest in $$$ equipment and land to mine gold, do I only pay capital gains taxes for the value of the gold mined? Of course not.

r00fus 8y ago

Well, most of the US is more temperate than most of Canada. So better like the cold/snow. Given the current US administration it might be a good trade. Of course, the great Canadian conspiracy of promoting global warming to equalize that benefit may turn the tables in a couple of decades or so... /snark

eloff 8y ago
Canada is super environmentally conscious. I don't know where you get the idea from that we promote global warming, except as being a petroleum exporter (the US is a much bigger petroleum producer.) I can think of one glaring example of climate change denial among developed nations, however...
- stevenwoo 8y ago
  Which part of Canada and what kind of environmentally conscious? The mining companies in Canada don't seem too particularly environmentally conscious according to the older Canadian news article that aligns with my memory. https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/10/19/canadian_mining_firms_worst_for_environment_rights_report.html https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2010/10/19/canadian_mini... Also, the a large majority of wells in Canada are now fracking wells so fresh water contamination is a consideration as well, it seems to be regulated on a province by province basis.
  - eloff 8y ago
    Are mining companies anywhere environmentally conscious anymore than they have to be? The people and politics of Canada are in favor of combating climate change in many respects. Not like the US withdrawing from the Paris accords.
    - stevenwoo 8y ago
      75% of mining companies are based in Canada. I'm surprised they are not based in the Cayman Islands or offshore but they choose Canada for favorable legal treatment and lax oversight. https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/wdb4j5/75-of-the-worlds-mining-companies-are-based-in-canada https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/wdb4j5/75-of-the-worlds-m... I'm sure otherwise Canada is environmentally woke, and America's coal barons could give Canada's mining companies a run for the environmentally unfit / socially unsound money.

cam3ham 8y ago

To add to this - universal health care. This is very important for immigrants who have families. Basically, immigrating to Canada means you have freedom, stability, and health for you and your loved ones.

loftyal 8y ago

I've spoken to an H1B lawyer about this, You can actually monetize your online work, just as long as the freelance company is not American. You can start up a limited company in your home country and get paid into a bank account there.

timewarrior 8y ago
This is bad advice. It is really risky to do this and you can be barred from US forever. Lawyers can give bad advice, and you need to triple-check non conventional advice. I used a lawyer who is really popular with YC companies. He gave me really bad advise, none of it worked eventually and I had to leave US eventually. Be very conservative and careful when dealing with Immigration laws. Especially with the current environment.
wenc 8y ago
This is incorrect and dangerous advice.
arcticbull 8y ago
What matters is where you are physically located when performing the work not where the company that owns the work product is incorporated from a US immigration perspective. You should double check this with another attorney.

nostromo 8y ago

What the article failed to mention is that Trump and the Republican Congress have called for the US to change our immigration system to be more like Canada's. That is: focusing on skills and merit and limiting extended-family migration. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/trump-cotton-perdue-merit-based-immigration-system/518985/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/03/trump-c... Right now the majority of legal immigration to the US is based on having family in the US. The US has a much more expansive view of family unification than does Canada -- for example an adult in the US can sponsor their adult siblings and all of their children, spouses, and parents for citizenship -- which is not something you can do in Canada. Once citizens, all of those folks can then sponsor their extended family for family reunification migration as well. https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/images/US_vs._Canada_1.29_1517253452.png https://prod-cdn-static.gop.com/media/images/US_vs._Canada_1... This kind of proposal would be good for people currently on H1B that would like to become citizens. However, the cost would be far fewer extended-family reunification immigrants.

marcell 8y ago
I've seen this, but I'm skeptical of the approach. I don't think there is a lot of political appetite in DC to help tech companies in general. Both parties would rather use tech companies as a industry to bash, rather than an industry to nurture and grow. Look at the bi-partisan hate for Facebook and Google. Regardless of how you feel about the privacy issues there, it is clear that neither party is particularly friendly to the needs of Silicon Valley. While the merit based immigration idea is nice, I think it will fail for the following reasons: - Trump is not putting his political weight behind it. It was floated as an interesting policy proposal, but he didn't put his weight behind it like he did for say tax reform, ACA repeal, etc. - As mentioned above, neither party is especially driven to help Silicon Valley - While it may help Silicon Valley and tech companies, this change also really hurts people who count on family based immigration to bring their loved ones into the country. I don't think it would be politically popular to cut off family based immigration to help tech companies. I think if Trump (or Obama etc.) wanted to help the situation, the simplest path forward is through executive action. Trump (or Obama etc.) can easily change the priorities and internal policies of INS to make it easier for tech workers to come to America, within the bounds of current law.

ketcomp 8y ago

> tutor students in India or any country online, I am a volunteer teacher at evidyaloka - a Bengaluru based NGO founded by two ex-techies - while working in the States! I don't know if you already know about this but thought it was worth pointing out :)

latte 8y ago

>> Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized That's weird. I cannot even imagine what the rationale for introducing these restrictions could be. Normally, working restrictions for immigrants serve to protect the wages of the local work force, but in this case they only make the migrants' lives less fulfilling.

xtreme 8y ago
USCIS considers pretty much everything that results in monetary gains (other than investing) as "working". Even renting your own house counts as working, so people on H1B can't do that either.
- asdfx 8y ago
  I do not think this is true.
  - sumitgt 8y ago
    It is.
- jxi 8y ago
  Is that true? I know that renting an investment property (with a property manager) is fine because it counts as passive income where you aren't working a second job. I'm not sure why renting your own house would really be different.
- arcticbull 8y ago
  Not exactly, you can rent your house, that’s considered passive income like any other investment (so long as you don’t day trade), which is fine, to the best of my knowledge. You can’t have anything that even resembles a job, either paid (active income) OR unpaid if it may replace a paid US worker.
- huy-nguyen 8y ago
  That’s not true. Passive income (like renting out your room/house) is not considered work unless you spent a lot of time on it e.g. AirBnB.

techie128 8y ago

I have 3 offers to write books. I, unfortunately, cannot do that due to the H-1B visa restriction. I have been in US legally for over a decade, making 350K+ annually. Our HH income is 700K USD. Before someone jumps in and say but why don't you apply for a EB5 greencard, it's not so simple either. It is 600K (500K + legal and other fees) of my hard earned money down the drain with ZERO certainty of a greencard for YEARS. I would rather go to Canada when my spouse cannot work here any more (H4 EAD Revocation) than to continue contributing to the US economy where people like us are not cared for.

timewarrior 8y ago
This was a good decision ref EB-5. Currently, if there is any crazy possibility, USCIS will reject your petition. EB-5 will take 2-3 years and you don't know how things will be then or even if the program will be around then. USCIS will refund your fees, but you will be out lawyer fees and investment. Move to Canada. You can start your own company in Canada. Salaries are lower and government gives back a good chunk of developer salaries to the company. You will also get some stability in life. As you get older, it is more difficult to immigrate to other countries.
nambit 8y ago
How does your wife get to 350K+ annually on an H4? That's insane.
- timewarrior 8y ago
  It’s not really insane. Many a times, there are skilled spouses who can’t get an H1 because of lottery or some other issue. My spouse had an illustrious career in India and did an MBA in US. She made a lot more than 350k per year and she was on H4 too. One of my friend’s spouse is a Director in a company. Her company screwed up her Green Card. So she couldn’t extend her H1 beyond 6 years. She had to move to H4 too.
  - NTDF9 8y ago
    > Her company screwed up her Green Card. So she couldn’t extend her H1 beyond 6 years. She had to move to H4 too What was the screw up?

kwoff 8y ago

Good luck in your move out of the US!

sumitgt 8y ago

Thank you. As the top comment on the article, you have clearly and succinctly expressed everything I have felt.

qubax 8y ago

> First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into the US, Canada etc. Sorry, I don't believe you. The median income in india is between $500-$1000. The media income in the US is $35000. You seriously claiming money isn't the driving force? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income > Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider “day trading” etc. "Make and sell art"? Dogecoin? It's hard to take you seriously when this is the list you provided.