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I suppose my comments from yesterdays thread about "Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atmosphere" is relevant: I did the math for Toronto(which is

by otalp 8y ago

I suppose my comments from yesterdays thread about "Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atmosphere" is relevant: I did the math for Toronto(which is more expensive than Montreal, and about the same as Vancouver). For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by 30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out. The site Hired.com came to similar conclusions that I've attached in an image below [2] To go into more detail, According to numbeo[1] which crowdsources data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) in Toronto, but of course the salary is more than 20% lower. But the real kicker is the rent, and while Toronto rent is definitely increasing, it is nowhere close to NYC of Silicon Valley levels, and most sources do say you have to pay 50% more for an equivalent apartment in NYC. Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of (pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets. Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great advantages. If you're a US citizen, I don't think Canada or Toronto is enticing enough to drag you away - especially with places like Seattle, Austin and Colorado being better than SV and NYC in terms of Salary:CoL. But if you're not, Canada is comfortably the second best company to be a software engineer in, and the expected expansion of Amazon, Google and Microsoft in Toronto is likely to create a lot more high paying jobs and new startups in the coming years, especially with the US's anti-immigration stance basically making it impossible for Indians and the Chinese to get permanent residency. The excellent universities and industry leading research in AI of UToronto and UWaterloo is a bonus if you're a student as well. [1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou.. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou.... [2] http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8fd629baac34d01d5dcb2af9c95973137e2bebefc917c29f35292b23b67c5.png http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8...

refurb 8y ago
data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) Why would you adjust for currency when you're paid in Canadian dollars?
- drpgq 8y ago
  What are they referring to as data? Cell costs are pretty expensive in Canada for what you get.
- cam3ham 8y ago
  It's 20% cheaper EVEN considering the difference in currency.
- acover 8y ago
  They are comparing salaries in USD. Using one currency for all comparisons.
pmalynin 8y ago
Yes and no. For a new grad its still not hard to get an initial job offer in the excess of 200k TC in the Bay. If you're a DINK that's 400k. There are simply no jobs that a fresh grad can get paid that much in Canada. And thats not even factoring in future cash flow from working in the Bay (better prospects, prestige etc). Also currency, it sucks. Everything is more expensive. You can't get anywhere without 1-2 stops if you're flying. I'm finishing up my last year at University of Alberta, and there is literally nothing that will keep me here.
- otalp 8y ago
  As someone in the big 4 I can tell you 200k TC in SV is nowhere near 200k annually starting out. That would involve 70-80k in RSU that vest over 4 years, and in companies like Amazon(whose stock has been going up like crazy) that is divested 5%, 15%, 40% and 40% annually, so you get the bulk of it only later on.\ It wasn't long ago that Google was offering 100k base in the valley(where <80k salary is considered below poverty line) and many Google and Facebook engineers still share an apartment with roommates. If you want to maximise disposable income, you'll end up with much more at Seattle or Austin than in the bay or New York.
  - pmalynin 8y ago
    Thanks for you input. But I am aware of the breakdown of the compensation packages and I stand behind my statement having just accepted a new grad role at FAANG. 70-80k RSUs are on the lower end. For example standard Facebook offers are 140 base, 100k signing, 150 stock / 4y. I will be living with my partner and we calculated that with an apartment of 3-4k a month will be still saving at least tens of thousands of dollars a month, factoring in car lease, food, and what not.
    - otalp 8y ago
      Oh yeah, I agree that a FAANG job(Facebook is usually the highest TC) in the valley is way better value then staying in Canada. But of course the average person doesn't get close to that much. On _average_ software engineers are better off in Seattle than in the valley, and if their annual comp is less than 140k(average entry level salary is 100k in San Fran), they should consider alternatives that look like they pay less. Over the last 4 years accounting for stock rises, CoL and lower taxes, Amzn/Microsoft in Seattle would have paid out quite a bit more than FAANG in the valley.
en4bz 8y ago
This assumes you live in the highest CoL areas in the US. If you live outside of the Bay Area or NYC you take home significantly more than in Canada. In Canada you NEED to live in high CoL areas like Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal to get work.
- jszymborski 8y ago
  Montreal is significantly cheaper to live in than either Vancouver[0] or Toronto[1]. I'm not sure what low CoL areas in the US are commanding high wages, but CoL is way lower in Montreal if you compare to places like Boulder, CO [2] or Dallas, TX,[3] which apparently have good tech scenes [4]. [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Canada&city1=Vancouver&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Canada&city1=Toronto&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada&city1=Boulder%2C+CO&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada&city1=Dallas%2C+TX&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [4] https://www.stoodnt.com/blog/top-student-cities-in-the-us-outside-the-silicon-valley-for-tech-jobs-engineering-big-data-it-and-analytics-part-1/ https://www.stoodnt.com/blog/top-student-cities-in-the-us-ou...
  - en4bz 8y ago
    Not really because provincial income tax is 10-15% higher than Ontario and BC. Numbeo does not include taxes IIRC.
jszymborski 8y ago
Overall, I agree with your points, but I have some points of contention with some of the analysis. I don't think it's quite fair to include tax if you're not going to include savings for things like health care. Furthermore, Toronto's housing market, while less expensive than Cali/NY, is still insane. I know you acknowledge this in passing, but Montreal's housing market is insanely affordable, and we've a great tech/uni scene. Immigration to Quebec, might be getting harder for non-Canadians w/ our new provincial gov't, however.
- paxy 8y ago
  Free healthcare is a standard benefit in the tech industry in the US. Even after deductibles and with heavy use, you're going to at the most end up with a couple thousand dollars in out-of-pocket costs.
- docker_up 8y ago
  There isn't much savings in terms of health care. In Ontario, if you're working you have to pay a health care tax that is similar to what an employee would pay at a Silicon Valley company. And then the health care is much worse in terms of responsiveness. For example, I have Kaiser, and my Canadians friends are envious at how quickly I get scheduled for procedures. My family and friends have had to wait months for some procedures or tests.
  - f6e9ed793b 8y ago
    > In Ontario, if you're working you have to pay a health care tax that is similar to what an employee would pay at a Silicon Valley company. You must be comparing California monthly costs to Ontario yearly costs. Maximum Ontario annual premiums are $900.[1] To get equivalent coverage (by equivalent, I mean in terms of insurance value - as in, I won't have a $15,000 copay if I get into a serious accident) from Kaiser in Southern California (the "silver" plan) is about $750 per month for me and my wife. If you are covered through your employer (we both freelance), you might be getting fooled into thinking you are paying less money because your paychecks show a smaller number as "deducted," but that is because the rest is paid by your employer and is still part of your compensation. [1] https://www.ontario.ca/data/ontario-health-premium-rates https://www.ontario.ca/data/ontario-health-premium-rates
Matthias247 8y ago
Afaik taxes are rather more than in the US. If I enter the 110000 CAD into https://simpletax.ca/calculator https://simpletax.ca/calculator I get a 30% tax rate. It will also get more at a higher income. Washington/US has less income tax overall, even with higher salaries. Overall if you earn 30-40% less, you might also have that much less after taxes. Regarding cost of living: I found the minor expenses (e.g. restaurants) to be quite a bit cheaper than in the US. However the already expensive things are expensive here too. Especially housing/rent, which is currently pretty crazy here in Vancouver. I would expect being able to buy a condo or house a lot faster in the US than here.
- otalp 8y ago
  Seattle/Austin/Colorado are better than Canada in almost every aspect. But, you could make an argument that with the higher tax rates, renting/house prices and living expenses of California and NYC, Canada could be a viable alternative, especially if you want to go freelance/part-time and need the healthcare, or are a non-US citizen.

by otalp 8y ago

refurb 8y ago

data, groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) Why would you adjust for currency when you're paid in Canadian dollars?

drpgq 8y ago
What are they referring to as data? Cell costs are pretty expensive in Canada for what you get.
cam3ham 8y ago
It's 20% cheaper EVEN considering the difference in currency.
acover 8y ago
They are comparing salaries in USD. Using one currency for all comparisons.

pmalynin 8y ago

Yes and no. For a new grad its still not hard to get an initial job offer in the excess of 200k TC in the Bay. If you're a DINK that's 400k. There are simply no jobs that a fresh grad can get paid that much in Canada. And thats not even factoring in future cash flow from working in the Bay (better prospects, prestige etc). Also currency, it sucks. Everything is more expensive. You can't get anywhere without 1-2 stops if you're flying. I'm finishing up my last year at University of Alberta, and there is literally nothing that will keep me here.

otalp 8y ago
As someone in the big 4 I can tell you 200k TC in SV is nowhere near 200k annually starting out. That would involve 70-80k in RSU that vest over 4 years, and in companies like Amazon(whose stock has been going up like crazy) that is divested 5%, 15%, 40% and 40% annually, so you get the bulk of it only later on.\ It wasn't long ago that Google was offering 100k base in the valley(where <80k salary is considered below poverty line) and many Google and Facebook engineers still share an apartment with roommates. If you want to maximise disposable income, you'll end up with much more at Seattle or Austin than in the bay or New York.
- pmalynin 8y ago
  Thanks for you input. But I am aware of the breakdown of the compensation packages and I stand behind my statement having just accepted a new grad role at FAANG. 70-80k RSUs are on the lower end. For example standard Facebook offers are 140 base, 100k signing, 150 stock / 4y. I will be living with my partner and we calculated that with an apartment of 3-4k a month will be still saving at least tens of thousands of dollars a month, factoring in car lease, food, and what not.
  - otalp 8y ago
    Oh yeah, I agree that a FAANG job(Facebook is usually the highest TC) in the valley is way better value then staying in Canada. But of course the average person doesn't get close to that much. On _average_ software engineers are better off in Seattle than in the valley, and if their annual comp is less than 140k(average entry level salary is 100k in San Fran), they should consider alternatives that look like they pay less. Over the last 4 years accounting for stock rises, CoL and lower taxes, Amzn/Microsoft in Seattle would have paid out quite a bit more than FAANG in the valley.

en4bz 8y ago

This assumes you live in the highest CoL areas in the US. If you live outside of the Bay Area or NYC you take home significantly more than in Canada. In Canada you NEED to live in high CoL areas like Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal to get work.

jszymborski 8y ago
Montreal is significantly cheaper to live in than either Vancouver[0] or Toronto[1]. I'm not sure what low CoL areas in the US are commanding high wages, but CoL is way lower in Montreal if you compare to places like Boulder, CO [2] or Dallas, TX,[3] which apparently have good tech scenes [4]. [0] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Canada&city1=Vancouver&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=Canada&city1=Toronto&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada&city1=Boulder%2C+CO&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [3] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada&city1=Dallas%2C+TX&city2=Montreal&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [4] https://www.stoodnt.com/blog/top-student-cities-in-the-us-outside-the-silicon-valley-for-tech-jobs-engineering-big-data-it-and-analytics-part-1/ https://www.stoodnt.com/blog/top-student-cities-in-the-us-ou...
- en4bz 8y ago
  Not really because provincial income tax is 10-15% higher than Ontario and BC. Numbeo does not include taxes IIRC.

jszymborski 8y ago

Overall, I agree with your points, but I have some points of contention with some of the analysis. I don't think it's quite fair to include tax if you're not going to include savings for things like health care. Furthermore, Toronto's housing market, while less expensive than Cali/NY, is still insane. I know you acknowledge this in passing, but Montreal's housing market is insanely affordable, and we've a great tech/uni scene. Immigration to Quebec, might be getting harder for non-Canadians w/ our new provincial gov't, however.

paxy 8y ago
Free healthcare is a standard benefit in the tech industry in the US. Even after deductibles and with heavy use, you're going to at the most end up with a couple thousand dollars in out-of-pocket costs.
docker_up 8y ago
There isn't much savings in terms of health care. In Ontario, if you're working you have to pay a health care tax that is similar to what an employee would pay at a Silicon Valley company. And then the health care is much worse in terms of responsiveness. For example, I have Kaiser, and my Canadians friends are envious at how quickly I get scheduled for procedures. My family and friends have had to wait months for some procedures or tests.
- f6e9ed793b 8y ago
  > In Ontario, if you're working you have to pay a health care tax that is similar to what an employee would pay at a Silicon Valley company. You must be comparing California monthly costs to Ontario yearly costs. Maximum Ontario annual premiums are $900.[1] To get equivalent coverage (by equivalent, I mean in terms of insurance value - as in, I won't have a $15,000 copay if I get into a serious accident) from Kaiser in Southern California (the "silver" plan) is about $750 per month for me and my wife. If you are covered through your employer (we both freelance), you might be getting fooled into thinking you are paying less money because your paychecks show a smaller number as "deducted," but that is because the rest is paid by your employer and is still part of your compensation. [1] https://www.ontario.ca/data/ontario-health-premium-rates https://www.ontario.ca/data/ontario-health-premium-rates

Matthias247 8y ago

Afaik taxes are rather more than in the US. If I enter the 110000 CAD into https://simpletax.ca/calculator https://simpletax.ca/calculator I get a 30% tax rate. It will also get more at a higher income. Washington/US has less income tax overall, even with higher salaries. Overall if you earn 30-40% less, you might also have that much less after taxes. Regarding cost of living: I found the minor expenses (e.g. restaurants) to be quite a bit cheaper than in the US. However the already expensive things are expensive here too. Especially housing/rent, which is currently pretty crazy here in Vancouver. I would expect being able to buy a condo or house a lot faster in the US than here.

otalp 8y ago
Seattle/Austin/Colorado are better than Canada in almost every aspect. But, you could make an argument that with the higher tax rates, renting/house prices and living expenses of California and NYC, Canada could be a viable alternative, especially if you want to go freelance/part-time and need the healthcare, or are a non-US citizen.