5 ms·

It's okay to mention this, but not fair to omit comparison with the US while the two were originally compared. The scale may be different, but the situation in

by cies 8y ago

It's okay to mention this, but not fair to omit comparison with the US while the two were originally compared. The scale may be different, but the situation in the US is not to good either on these topics, and has been deteriorating lately.

jjeaff 8y ago
I'm not aware of any journalists or political opponents being arrested or tortured in the US.
- BurnGpuBurn 8y ago
  Just leaving this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#...
  - dagw 8y ago
    Please don't do that. If you have a point to make or something to add, please do so. Having actually read the wikipedia page you linked to I'm still not entirely sure exactly which point you're trying to make.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
  - i_am_nomad 8y ago
    You are wrong about White House press access; the current President has been far more open and accessible than his predecessor.
    - scrollaway 8y ago
      https://apnews.com/f29a23df19214466b226e2cbdec78cbd https://apnews.com/f29a23df19214466b226e2cbdec78cbd - AP (As neutral as it gets) - White House press conferences grow rare https://apnews.com/0a029f0bf678452aa89facb6dfba5f25 https://apnews.com/0a029f0bf678452aa89facb6dfba5f25 - AP - WH restricts AP, Reuters, Bloomberg for KJU summit http://time.com/5270968/donald-trump-reporters-credentials-media/ http://time.com/5270968/donald-trump-reporters-credentials-m... - TIME, Donald Trump threatens taking away reporter credentials https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/09/donald-trump-take-away-press-credentials-tweet-fake-news https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/09/donald-trump... - The Guardian - White House won't rule out banning press for 'negative' coverage Just a couple of examples of what white house press feels like under the Trump era. Talk to me more about "his predecessor". Edit: Today's bonus article on freedom of speech, press, and assembly: https://outline.com/3TKY5M https://outline.com/3TKY5M - CNN - DOJ demands Facebook information from 'anti-administration activists'. There's like one of these every day at least. So, you know, I don't believe you.
      - wrs 8y ago
        To be fair, thanks to Twitter we do have much more access than before to his unfiltered stream of consciousness at 3AM.
        scrollaway 8y ago
        For what it's worth, I think that is one of the very, very, very few good things that will come out of that presidency. We'll see what future presidents make of it, but I have hope that in the long run it leads to increased transparency. Of course, other checks are being removed left and right, so I don't think it evens out in the case of the Trump admin.
        wrs 8y ago
        I don’t think this kind of “transparency” is a good thing for any president. It is far better for the head of government to make considered, careful, well-timed statements with the benefit of staff research. You know, like normal governments have always worked...
  - isostatic 8y ago
    The US is going downhill quickly, and I wouldn't advise anyone to move there. However it's still a long way away from countries like Turkey or Uzbekistan or Russia. Compare the US to Brazil or South Africa sure, point out how it's no longer in the same bracket as Canada or Denmark or NZ, but comparing to Turkey or Thailand does a disservice.
    - scrollaway 8y ago
      It's really not far from Turkey. I agree it's not "as bad", but the US isn't done rotting. Populism, attacking and discrediting the press, running state media (FOX), control over all branches of government, a blind, rabid and xenophobic fanbase... Like, yeah, Turkey is worse. I think. I'm not even sure, given that Turkey has less power. So no, it's not at that level. Yet.
  - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
    What's important though is to compare the whole system and not just individuals. The US has very robust democratic institutions, checks and balances and rule of law. Trump's inclination to reduce everything to ass kissing ("has said nice things about me") and personal vendettas would be an absolute disaster in many countries. But the US is healthy enough to survive him - I think.
    - scrollaway 8y ago
      > The US has very robust democratic institutions, checks and balances and rule of law. Does it. A first-past-the-post system which reduces everything to two parties. Low voter turnouts. High gerrymandering. Terrible voter accessibility laws. Three branches of government end-to-end owned by only one party. And a ton of money in politics thanks to Citizens United. I'm sorry, but "robust democratic institutions" and "checks and balances" at this point are things americans tell themselves to sleep better at night. If you step back, you start seeing just how far gone the country is.
      - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        In terms of keeping one person in check, even if that person is the president, the US constitution does a great job. And this is very much borne out by what has happened since Trump was elected (by a minority of voters). (I'm not American)
        scrollaway 8y ago
        The constitution is a document, not a branch of the government. Who amends the constitution? Who enforces the constitution? The answer to both of those is: Branches of government controlled by the same single party as the one in power right now.
        fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        These are very baffling claims that lack any relation to reality. The US constitution defines the branches of government according to the principles of seperation of powers. The constitution also defines the process of changing the constitution itself (article V), and it does not include a way for Mr Trump or his party to do that as they do not have the required two thirds majority in both houses or in state legislatures. Importantly, there isn't even a way for him to whip up emotions in a referendum in order to change the constitution. The judiciary is not controlled by any party at all. Supreme court judges are appointed for life to prevent arbitrary interventions by other branches of government. And in practical terms, did you really get the impression that Trump has unwavering support even just among the legislators of his own party? Did you get the impression that the FBI acts on Trump's say so? How about the courts? No, what I'm seeing is a wannabe autocrat who is kept in check by an extremely robust set of institutions, constitutional arrangements and by a lot of principled individuals inside those institutions. I don't see Xi, Erdogan or Putin getting investigated by their own police or courts, having to fear impeachment or face the sort of (well deserved) journalistic onslaught that Trump has had to face.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  6 more journalists arrested in Ferguson protests A total of 11 journalists have been arrested during the protests in Ferguson Most were only held briefly, not charged German reporter says he's never been treated so badly by police https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-journalists-arrested/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-journalists-arr... I saw something once that credibly argued that the treatment of Chelsea Manning in prison amounted to torture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning The current president of the US has called for his political opponent to be jailed. Not readily finding actual instances of actually jailing political opponents in the US, but I'm not trying that hard either. https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/2/1729104/-Donald-Trump-kicks-off-2018-by-calling-for-his-political-opponents-to-be-jailed https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/2/1729104/-Donald-Trum... We also generally treat Blacks and Natives terribly and generally have crazy high rates of incarceration.
  - def_true_false 8y ago
    The scale is hardly comparable to the recent purges, arrests, etc in Turkey.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I didn't claim it was. But the comment I replied to unequivocally suggests this happens at a rate of Zero in the US, which is not accurate. Yet most folks are happy to act like it is accurate while my very mild and data backed comment gets push back of various sorts.
      - jjeaff 8y ago
        Yes, people have been arrested, who happen to be journalists. But no one in the US has been arrested for being a journalist or reporting things that are uncomfortable for leaders. You are making a false equivalency. Ferguson protests were dangerous and riotous at times. Sure, some people were arrested that shouldn't have been, but they were released. This isn't even comparable to the kinds of journalist arrests and murders we are talking about.
- kragen 8y ago
  You may have heard of Aaron Swartz, "Lock Her Up", Barrett Brown, and https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/doj-seeking-info-on-6000-people-who-liked-anti-trump-facebook-page/ https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/doj-seeking-info-on-6000-peopl..., Mumia Abu-Jamal, etc., but presumably you have forgotten. The situation in the US is not as bad as in Turkey, but it is bad and getting worse.
Chris_Chambers 8y ago
Orange man bad.

by cies 8y ago

jjeaff 8y ago

I'm not aware of any journalists or political opponents being arrested or tortured in the US.

BurnGpuBurn 8y ago
Just leaving this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_(journalist)#...
- dagw 8y ago
  Please don't do that. If you have a point to make or something to add, please do so. Having actually read the wikipedia page you linked to I'm still not entirely sure exactly which point you're trying to make.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
- i_am_nomad 8y ago
  You are wrong about White House press access; the current President has been far more open and accessible than his predecessor.
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    https://apnews.com/f29a23df19214466b226e2cbdec78cbd https://apnews.com/f29a23df19214466b226e2cbdec78cbd - AP (As neutral as it gets) - White House press conferences grow rare https://apnews.com/0a029f0bf678452aa89facb6dfba5f25 https://apnews.com/0a029f0bf678452aa89facb6dfba5f25 - AP - WH restricts AP, Reuters, Bloomberg for KJU summit http://time.com/5270968/donald-trump-reporters-credentials-media/ http://time.com/5270968/donald-trump-reporters-credentials-m... - TIME, Donald Trump threatens taking away reporter credentials https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/09/donald-trump-take-away-press-credentials-tweet-fake-news https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/09/donald-trump... - The Guardian - White House won't rule out banning press for 'negative' coverage Just a couple of examples of what white house press feels like under the Trump era. Talk to me more about "his predecessor". Edit: Today's bonus article on freedom of speech, press, and assembly: https://outline.com/3TKY5M https://outline.com/3TKY5M - CNN - DOJ demands Facebook information from 'anti-administration activists'. There's like one of these every day at least. So, you know, I don't believe you.
    - wrs 8y ago
      To be fair, thanks to Twitter we do have much more access than before to his unfiltered stream of consciousness at 3AM.
      - scrollaway 8y ago
        For what it's worth, I think that is one of the very, very, very few good things that will come out of that presidency. We'll see what future presidents make of it, but I have hope that in the long run it leads to increased transparency. Of course, other checks are being removed left and right, so I don't think it evens out in the case of the Trump admin.
        wrs 8y ago
        I don’t think this kind of “transparency” is a good thing for any president. It is far better for the head of government to make considered, careful, well-timed statements with the benefit of staff research. You know, like normal governments have always worked...
- isostatic 8y ago
  The US is going downhill quickly, and I wouldn't advise anyone to move there. However it's still a long way away from countries like Turkey or Uzbekistan or Russia. Compare the US to Brazil or South Africa sure, point out how it's no longer in the same bracket as Canada or Denmark or NZ, but comparing to Turkey or Thailand does a disservice.
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    It's really not far from Turkey. I agree it's not "as bad", but the US isn't done rotting. Populism, attacking and discrediting the press, running state media (FOX), control over all branches of government, a blind, rabid and xenophobic fanbase... Like, yeah, Turkey is worse. I think. I'm not even sure, given that Turkey has less power. So no, it's not at that level. Yet.
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  What's important though is to compare the whole system and not just individuals. The US has very robust democratic institutions, checks and balances and rule of law. Trump's inclination to reduce everything to ass kissing ("has said nice things about me") and personal vendettas would be an absolute disaster in many countries. But the US is healthy enough to survive him - I think.
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    > The US has very robust democratic institutions, checks and balances and rule of law. Does it. A first-past-the-post system which reduces everything to two parties. Low voter turnouts. High gerrymandering. Terrible voter accessibility laws. Three branches of government end-to-end owned by only one party. And a ton of money in politics thanks to Citizens United. I'm sorry, but "robust democratic institutions" and "checks and balances" at this point are things americans tell themselves to sleep better at night. If you step back, you start seeing just how far gone the country is.
    - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      In terms of keeping one person in check, even if that person is the president, the US constitution does a great job. And this is very much borne out by what has happened since Trump was elected (by a minority of voters). (I'm not American)
      - scrollaway 8y ago
        The constitution is a document, not a branch of the government. Who amends the constitution? Who enforces the constitution? The answer to both of those is: Branches of government controlled by the same single party as the one in power right now.
        fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        These are very baffling claims that lack any relation to reality. The US constitution defines the branches of government according to the principles of seperation of powers. The constitution also defines the process of changing the constitution itself (article V), and it does not include a way for Mr Trump or his party to do that as they do not have the required two thirds majority in both houses or in state legislatures. Importantly, there isn't even a way for him to whip up emotions in a referendum in order to change the constitution. The judiciary is not controlled by any party at all. Supreme court judges are appointed for life to prevent arbitrary interventions by other branches of government. And in practical terms, did you really get the impression that Trump has unwavering support even just among the legislators of his own party? Did you get the impression that the FBI acts on Trump's say so? How about the courts? No, what I'm seeing is a wannabe autocrat who is kept in check by an extremely robust set of institutions, constitutional arrangements and by a lot of principled individuals inside those institutions. I don't see Xi, Erdogan or Putin getting investigated by their own police or courts, having to fear impeachment or face the sort of (well deserved) journalistic onslaught that Trump has had to face.
DoreenMichele 8y ago
6 more journalists arrested in Ferguson protests A total of 11 journalists have been arrested during the protests in Ferguson Most were only held briefly, not charged German reporter says he's never been treated so badly by police https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-journalists-arrested/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-journalists-arr... I saw something once that credibly argued that the treatment of Chelsea Manning in prison amounted to torture. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning The current president of the US has called for his political opponent to be jailed. Not readily finding actual instances of actually jailing political opponents in the US, but I'm not trying that hard either. https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/2/1729104/-Donald-Trump-kicks-off-2018-by-calling-for-his-political-opponents-to-be-jailed https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/2/1729104/-Donald-Trum... We also generally treat Blacks and Natives terribly and generally have crazy high rates of incarceration.
- def_true_false 8y ago
  The scale is hardly comparable to the recent purges, arrests, etc in Turkey.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    I didn't claim it was. But the comment I replied to unequivocally suggests this happens at a rate of Zero in the US, which is not accurate. Yet most folks are happy to act like it is accurate while my very mild and data backed comment gets push back of various sorts.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      Yes, people have been arrested, who happen to be journalists. But no one in the US has been arrested for being a journalist or reporting things that are uncomfortable for leaders. You are making a false equivalency. Ferguson protests were dangerous and riotous at times. Sure, some people were arrested that shouldn't have been, but they were released. This isn't even comparable to the kinds of journalist arrests and murders we are talking about.
kragen 8y ago
You may have heard of Aaron Swartz, "Lock Her Up", Barrett Brown, and https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/doj-seeking-info-on-6000-people-who-liked-anti-trump-facebook-page/ https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/doj-seeking-info-on-6000-peopl..., Mumia Abu-Jamal, etc., but presumably you have forgotten. The situation in the US is not as bad as in Turkey, but it is bad and getting worse.

Chris_Chambers 8y ago

Orange man bad.