6 ms·

The only thing that seems to be universally true about mental health is that we’re all different, and someone else’s experiences rarely apply perfectly to your

The only thing that seems to be universally true about mental health is that we’re all different, and someone else’s experiences rarely apply perfectly to your own. I put off getting on the meds for at least 15 years longer than I should have done because of stories like this. They have been life changing lot positive for me with almost no downsides. In addition, I’ve read more than one story like this where the person eventually decides it’s time to get back on the SSRIs after a year or two off. Experiment, find what works for you, but these articles that are angry at big pharma and describe pills as primarily bad need to be seen very much as just localised experiences.

presscast 8y ago
In all fairness, though, these aren't isolated incidents. There seems to be some subgroup of the general population that suffers from SSRIs. That's what's interesting here -- what binds these people together as a group. In other words, brushing this aside as "just a bunch of individuals" isn't useful, nor is it satisfying anyone's intellectual curiosity.
- psergeant 8y ago
  > brushing this aside as "just a bunch of individuals" isn't useful If it gets one person like me who was under the impression that SSRIs make you a zombie, to try them, then it’s useful.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Not if they do make you a zombie (either in general or as an individual exception that's not covered for)
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  Yes, it does. Some individuals react differently. Some individuals cannot take aspirin daily for heart benefits, some cannot take ibuprofen for pain relief. Both these drugs can have reactions with other medications. It isn't an insignificant portion of the population, but we shouldn't allow those individuals create a dialogue that scares others away from trying the drug. If anything, we just need to spend a bit more time talking to folks about the possible side effects of the medications.
  - presscast 8y ago
    Yes that's very much my point.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    It's my understanding that with any particular drug used to treat depression the proportion of sufferers who can't take it is high - certainly IME the proportions are not at all insignificant. Aside: my understanding is that aspirin is no longer recommended (in mainstream medecine [in the UK]) to be used in a preventative way.
- escape_goat 8y ago
  They aren't isolated incidents, just as the testimonials from people who were really helped by the exact same drug aren't isolated incidents, and the testimonials from people who have experienced side-effects that were not discovered by the original qualification study are not isolated incidents. Psychiatric medications, in many cases, do genuinely affect different people differently. This has been well known for a long time. It also contributes to the contrast between anecdotal clinical experience and what are often dismal statistical performances. The difficulty is with people who feel that they have a grievance with the pharmaceutical companies and the medications themselves, when they actually have a grievance with the doctors who directed their care.
mysticmode 8y ago
This! is what I believe not only in mental illness perspective but in every way. I'm bipolar type 2 and I have been on and off on medications for a long time and suffered a lot. For the past 4 years I've been continuously taking meds and my life, my work and my relationship with other people has improved and I'm quite stable. Like you said, people are different, the thing that works for one person doesn't necessarily need to be working for others. Antidepressants and other meds saved my life!
- tren 8y ago
  Hey! I'm wondering how long it took you to get diagnosed as bipolar 2, and who diagnosed it - GP, psych? This last year I've been suffering depressive episodes that have really affected my capacity to function properly. They're always interspersed with really good days, maybe too good -- heaps of planning and ideas, unbridled optimism etc. It's hard to know what's considered to be the baseline for normal mood fluctuations.
  - mysticmode 8y ago
    Hey, hi! Sorry to hear that. I can understand what you are expressing. I'll try to comment on what you've written. Just read it and don't take anything seriously that you should follow that in your life :) If there is one thing, I wanted to say then it is, find help my friend! > I'm wondering how long it took you to get diagnosed as bipolar 2, and who diagnosed it - GP, psych? I think I can remember, that I've been experiencing these mood fluctuations since I was 12 years old (7th grade in school). I have never been consulted a psychiatrist or psychologist or any form of therapy till when I was 17 years old when it went quite severe, I went psychotic with anxiety and depression when I was in high school. My parents had figured out somehow and took me to a psychiatrist. So, coming to the point, I consulted him for some 2 years and he diagnosed me as bipolar 2. And I've been on and off on medications for the next 5 years then somehow I started taking the meds continuously for the last 4 years due to too much suffering. Now I'm 27, though I wouldn't say I'm too optimistic about life and people, somehow I'm moving on with day-to-day activities and finding my joy in it now and then. I said, medications saved my life, because through that I can be able to function on day-to-day activities. People helped and some are still helping me absolutely! > They're always interspersed with really good days, maybe too good -- heaps of planning and ideas, unbridled optimism etc. It's hard to know what's considered to be the baseline for normal mood fluctuations. Oh, my friend! This is the hardest part for me to understand really which is the emotional threshold and where will it lead me to. I really don't know, sorry!
rjkennedy98 8y ago
Keep in mind that for many people taking drugs is: a) not a choice they personally made (coercion by the school system or authorities or parents). b) they were lied to about the effects and side effects. c) they were prescribed 'off-label' which means essentially with no proven efficacy. When you say "Experiment, find what works for you" keep in mind how offensive that is to people who feel they were lied/coerced into a taking drugs that in some cases ruined their lives.
- psergeant 8y ago
  > When you say "Experiment, find what works for you" keep in mind how offensive that is to people who feel they were lied/coerced into a taking drugs that in some cases ruined their lives. Right, like suggesting people find employment is offensive to people who have experienced slavery.
- escape_goat 8y ago
  I have strong feelings about your response. There are people who were either medicated at a young age or forced to take medication through legal proceedings. Of those, most will have experienced the same hit-or-miss phenomenon with psychiatric medication. In some cases, however, this means that they were forced to take medications that had debilitating side-effects or didn't particularly work, and experienced serious stress trauma due to their ongoing helplessness in the situation. I do not expect them to be any less capable than anyone else, as a result, of understanding that other people are not them. I do not expect them to be offended when other people describe experiences that are not theirs. You're responding to the advice of someone who has taken medications voluntarily and had control over the process; this person is writing in response to an article by a man who, for all his bad experiences, was ALSO taking medications voluntarily. The statement that you single out as objectionable is actually nearly universal advice, and reflects my own experience with medications and mental health problems. If your comments about "how offensive that is" are based in your own experience as someone who was coercively medicated, I would be interested in hearing an explanation of why you find them objectionable. If they are not, however, I seriously question the value of your interjection into the conversation. I am attempting to be gentle and moderate in my response and I apologize if it seems harsh to you.
sigotirandolas 8y ago
It's just human nature, I guess. There's people from whom antidepressants don't work, and there's people from whom therapy doesn't work (unfortunately, those are not mutually exclusive). However, it seems to me that the individuals with the combination (antidepressants dont't work, therapy works) have a much easier time making an impacting narrative given our current intrinsic and social biases. My advice to those suffering from depression/anxiety would be to do their research and decide which treatment method they prefer, and to reevaluate once in a while how it is working, keeping in mind that it's very easy to get into a 'bubble' and discard or discredit potential treatment options. No one, no matter how smart, is able to overcome biased thinking. In my opinion, there are only a few options that have substantial evidence going for them (by the so-called mainstream science): various SSRIs, combinations and uncommon antidepressants, cognitive-behavior therapy and mindfulness-based therapy. One should balance exploitation (taking whatever one thinks works better at a given moment) and exploration (taking one option that one hasn't tried yet) to maximize the chances of successful treatment.
nicoburns 8y ago
Out of interest, how long have you been taking them for? I've heard lots of stories of fantastic short-term benefits, but not very many (in fact, not any that I can think of) where they continued to work long term. I'm not saying they can't work long term, in fact I guess that's why I'm asking, to see whether you are or know of examples where they have worked out long term.
- snegu 8y ago
  I took them for about 15 years (with a couple of little breaks), and they helped significantly the whole time. I went off them when I got pregnant (did CBT), and am still off 3 years later. I would love to go back on because the anxiety has come back (though not the panic) and I know I don't have to feel like this. However, the stigma keeps me off. Kinda sad.
ssorina 8y ago
I am also a bit skeptical when strong anti-Pharma opinions are expressed, based on personal experience only. Meta-analyses have shown that for severe depression, antidepressants are a first line of attack, only seconded or aided by CBT, but not interchangeable in terms of efficacy. It's kind of stupid to counterargue with yet another personal story, but for me not being able to take SSRIs has proven to be a real problem. I developed a somewhat rare side-effect with both SSRIs and SNRIs, I basically covered up in unexplanable bruises and given the increased risk of internal bleeding, am cut off from this medicine class completely. The only time in my life where I was not crippled by anxiety was on these meds. I continually try relaxation, CBT, DBT and whatnot, but unfortunately I am one of those who does not respond as well to therapy as I do to medication. To be really honest, I am on the other side of the fence: I hope big pharma comes up with something else than benzos and SSRIs for anxiety, so that I can be relieved from the task of living my life spiting anxiety 70% of the day.
- throwaway895237 8y ago
  > I hope big pharma comes up with something else than benzos and SSRIs for anxiety, so that I can be relieved from the task of living my life spiting anxiety 70% of the day. Have you tried psilocybin mushrooms or DMT? I'd been on meds for years treating depression and anxiety. A few mushroom and DMT experiences have basically cured my depression and anxiety and opened up a whole new way of looking at things.
  - fapjacks 8y ago
    Psilocybin and MDMA are currently being studied for treating e.g. veterans and victims of sexual assault with PTSD. It is demonstrating some pretty amazing results. Not too unexpected if you've done either of those things before, though.
  - joflicu 8y ago
    I have been curious about this as well especially since Michael Pollan's book "How to change your mind" came out. How did your experience go? I am not by any means a recreational drug user so have no idea where I can get DMT or mushrooms.
epmaybe 8y ago
I don't know if I'd call them localised experiences per say, as I feel it minimizes what patients experience. I've probably done that to commenters here in the past regarding depression and pharmaceuticals. However, I largely agree with what you are saying, everyone is going to have different reactions to these medicines. They're all "dirty" (note that SSRIs are far more specific in effects than previous generations of antidepressants) in terms of the vast number of effects neurotransmitters have in our brain, so it's understandable that they wouldn't work the same for everyone.
drb91 8y ago
Hey if we’re offering sample sizes of one, SSRIs make me sleepy and unmotivated—nearly the opposite of a helpful effect. I’ve also heard quite a few complaints from women friends about weight gain. Sexual side effects are common. For me, at least, SSRI medication was and remains to be a distraction from mental health treatment. I also have plenty of rage at big pharma, but that’s more around enabling bad therapists to prescribe medicine without providing the appropriate support. They obviously have every incentive to make sure that anyone who sees a psychiatrist has some medicine that could apply.
- op00to 8y ago
  Huh. SSRIs made my life way better, but I also get sexual side effects. For me, at least, SSRI medication was and remains to be a critical link in mental health treatment.
  - drb91 8y ago
    I struggled with the decision to stop taking it because it’s very hard to nail down how it even affects you. Talk therapy proved enormously successful. This is kind of my point, though—if in my case I do NOT have a treatable chemical imbalance, if the medication is certainly not successful, is there any good way to tell?
- rhizome 8y ago
  Hey if we’re offering sample sizes of one, SSRIs make me sleepy and unmotivated—nearly the opposite of a helpful effect. [...]Bad therapists...prescribe medicine without providing the appropriate support Consider the possibility that you have had bad doctors diagnosing and prescribing for you. Also, there are a lot of therapists that don't (can't) prescribe, maybe it's a good idea to seek help in that direction?

presscast 8y ago

In all fairness, though, these aren't isolated incidents. There seems to be some subgroup of the general population that suffers from SSRIs. That's what's interesting here -- what binds these people together as a group. In other words, brushing this aside as "just a bunch of individuals" isn't useful, nor is it satisfying anyone's intellectual curiosity.

psergeant 8y ago
> brushing this aside as "just a bunch of individuals" isn't useful If it gets one person like me who was under the impression that SSRIs make you a zombie, to try them, then it’s useful.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Not if they do make you a zombie (either in general or as an individual exception that's not covered for)
Broken_Hippo 8y ago
Yes, it does. Some individuals react differently. Some individuals cannot take aspirin daily for heart benefits, some cannot take ibuprofen for pain relief. Both these drugs can have reactions with other medications. It isn't an insignificant portion of the population, but we shouldn't allow those individuals create a dialogue that scares others away from trying the drug. If anything, we just need to spend a bit more time talking to folks about the possible side effects of the medications.
- presscast 8y ago
  Yes that's very much my point.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  It's my understanding that with any particular drug used to treat depression the proportion of sufferers who can't take it is high - certainly IME the proportions are not at all insignificant. Aside: my understanding is that aspirin is no longer recommended (in mainstream medecine [in the UK]) to be used in a preventative way.
escape_goat 8y ago
They aren't isolated incidents, just as the testimonials from people who were really helped by the exact same drug aren't isolated incidents, and the testimonials from people who have experienced side-effects that were not discovered by the original qualification study are not isolated incidents. Psychiatric medications, in many cases, do genuinely affect different people differently. This has been well known for a long time. It also contributes to the contrast between anecdotal clinical experience and what are often dismal statistical performances. The difficulty is with people who feel that they have a grievance with the pharmaceutical companies and the medications themselves, when they actually have a grievance with the doctors who directed their care.

mysticmode 8y ago

This! is what I believe not only in mental illness perspective but in every way. I'm bipolar type 2 and I have been on and off on medications for a long time and suffered a lot. For the past 4 years I've been continuously taking meds and my life, my work and my relationship with other people has improved and I'm quite stable. Like you said, people are different, the thing that works for one person doesn't necessarily need to be working for others. Antidepressants and other meds saved my life!

tren 8y ago
Hey! I'm wondering how long it took you to get diagnosed as bipolar 2, and who diagnosed it - GP, psych? This last year I've been suffering depressive episodes that have really affected my capacity to function properly. They're always interspersed with really good days, maybe too good -- heaps of planning and ideas, unbridled optimism etc. It's hard to know what's considered to be the baseline for normal mood fluctuations.
- mysticmode 8y ago
  Hey, hi! Sorry to hear that. I can understand what you are expressing. I'll try to comment on what you've written. Just read it and don't take anything seriously that you should follow that in your life :) If there is one thing, I wanted to say then it is, find help my friend! > I'm wondering how long it took you to get diagnosed as bipolar 2, and who diagnosed it - GP, psych? I think I can remember, that I've been experiencing these mood fluctuations since I was 12 years old (7th grade in school). I have never been consulted a psychiatrist or psychologist or any form of therapy till when I was 17 years old when it went quite severe, I went psychotic with anxiety and depression when I was in high school. My parents had figured out somehow and took me to a psychiatrist. So, coming to the point, I consulted him for some 2 years and he diagnosed me as bipolar 2. And I've been on and off on medications for the next 5 years then somehow I started taking the meds continuously for the last 4 years due to too much suffering. Now I'm 27, though I wouldn't say I'm too optimistic about life and people, somehow I'm moving on with day-to-day activities and finding my joy in it now and then. I said, medications saved my life, because through that I can be able to function on day-to-day activities. People helped and some are still helping me absolutely! > They're always interspersed with really good days, maybe too good -- heaps of planning and ideas, unbridled optimism etc. It's hard to know what's considered to be the baseline for normal mood fluctuations. Oh, my friend! This is the hardest part for me to understand really which is the emotional threshold and where will it lead me to. I really don't know, sorry!

rjkennedy98 8y ago

Keep in mind that for many people taking drugs is: a) not a choice they personally made (coercion by the school system or authorities or parents). b) they were lied to about the effects and side effects. c) they were prescribed 'off-label' which means essentially with no proven efficacy. When you say "Experiment, find what works for you" keep in mind how offensive that is to people who feel they were lied/coerced into a taking drugs that in some cases ruined their lives.

psergeant 8y ago
> When you say "Experiment, find what works for you" keep in mind how offensive that is to people who feel they were lied/coerced into a taking drugs that in some cases ruined their lives. Right, like suggesting people find employment is offensive to people who have experienced slavery.
escape_goat 8y ago
I have strong feelings about your response. There are people who were either medicated at a young age or forced to take medication through legal proceedings. Of those, most will have experienced the same hit-or-miss phenomenon with psychiatric medication. In some cases, however, this means that they were forced to take medications that had debilitating side-effects or didn't particularly work, and experienced serious stress trauma due to their ongoing helplessness in the situation. I do not expect them to be any less capable than anyone else, as a result, of understanding that other people are not them. I do not expect them to be offended when other people describe experiences that are not theirs. You're responding to the advice of someone who has taken medications voluntarily and had control over the process; this person is writing in response to an article by a man who, for all his bad experiences, was ALSO taking medications voluntarily. The statement that you single out as objectionable is actually nearly universal advice, and reflects my own experience with medications and mental health problems. If your comments about "how offensive that is" are based in your own experience as someone who was coercively medicated, I would be interested in hearing an explanation of why you find them objectionable. If they are not, however, I seriously question the value of your interjection into the conversation. I am attempting to be gentle and moderate in my response and I apologize if it seems harsh to you.

sigotirandolas 8y ago

It's just human nature, I guess. There's people from whom antidepressants don't work, and there's people from whom therapy doesn't work (unfortunately, those are not mutually exclusive). However, it seems to me that the individuals with the combination (antidepressants dont't work, therapy works) have a much easier time making an impacting narrative given our current intrinsic and social biases. My advice to those suffering from depression/anxiety would be to do their research and decide which treatment method they prefer, and to reevaluate once in a while how it is working, keeping in mind that it's very easy to get into a 'bubble' and discard or discredit potential treatment options. No one, no matter how smart, is able to overcome biased thinking. In my opinion, there are only a few options that have substantial evidence going for them (by the so-called mainstream science): various SSRIs, combinations and uncommon antidepressants, cognitive-behavior therapy and mindfulness-based therapy. One should balance exploitation (taking whatever one thinks works better at a given moment) and exploration (taking one option that one hasn't tried yet) to maximize the chances of successful treatment.

nicoburns 8y ago

Out of interest, how long have you been taking them for? I've heard lots of stories of fantastic short-term benefits, but not very many (in fact, not any that I can think of) where they continued to work long term. I'm not saying they can't work long term, in fact I guess that's why I'm asking, to see whether you are or know of examples where they have worked out long term.

snegu 8y ago
I took them for about 15 years (with a couple of little breaks), and they helped significantly the whole time. I went off them when I got pregnant (did CBT), and am still off 3 years later. I would love to go back on because the anxiety has come back (though not the panic) and I know I don't have to feel like this. However, the stigma keeps me off. Kinda sad.

ssorina 8y ago

I am also a bit skeptical when strong anti-Pharma opinions are expressed, based on personal experience only. Meta-analyses have shown that for severe depression, antidepressants are a first line of attack, only seconded or aided by CBT, but not interchangeable in terms of efficacy. It's kind of stupid to counterargue with yet another personal story, but for me not being able to take SSRIs has proven to be a real problem. I developed a somewhat rare side-effect with both SSRIs and SNRIs, I basically covered up in unexplanable bruises and given the increased risk of internal bleeding, am cut off from this medicine class completely. The only time in my life where I was not crippled by anxiety was on these meds. I continually try relaxation, CBT, DBT and whatnot, but unfortunately I am one of those who does not respond as well to therapy as I do to medication. To be really honest, I am on the other side of the fence: I hope big pharma comes up with something else than benzos and SSRIs for anxiety, so that I can be relieved from the task of living my life spiting anxiety 70% of the day.

throwaway895237 8y ago
> I hope big pharma comes up with something else than benzos and SSRIs for anxiety, so that I can be relieved from the task of living my life spiting anxiety 70% of the day. Have you tried psilocybin mushrooms or DMT? I'd been on meds for years treating depression and anxiety. A few mushroom and DMT experiences have basically cured my depression and anxiety and opened up a whole new way of looking at things.
- fapjacks 8y ago
  Psilocybin and MDMA are currently being studied for treating e.g. veterans and victims of sexual assault with PTSD. It is demonstrating some pretty amazing results. Not too unexpected if you've done either of those things before, though.
- joflicu 8y ago
  I have been curious about this as well especially since Michael Pollan's book "How to change your mind" came out. How did your experience go? I am not by any means a recreational drug user so have no idea where I can get DMT or mushrooms.

epmaybe 8y ago

I don't know if I'd call them localised experiences per say, as I feel it minimizes what patients experience. I've probably done that to commenters here in the past regarding depression and pharmaceuticals. However, I largely agree with what you are saying, everyone is going to have different reactions to these medicines. They're all "dirty" (note that SSRIs are far more specific in effects than previous generations of antidepressants) in terms of the vast number of effects neurotransmitters have in our brain, so it's understandable that they wouldn't work the same for everyone.

drb91 8y ago

Hey if we’re offering sample sizes of one, SSRIs make me sleepy and unmotivated—nearly the opposite of a helpful effect. I’ve also heard quite a few complaints from women friends about weight gain. Sexual side effects are common. For me, at least, SSRI medication was and remains to be a distraction from mental health treatment. I also have plenty of rage at big pharma, but that’s more around enabling bad therapists to prescribe medicine without providing the appropriate support. They obviously have every incentive to make sure that anyone who sees a psychiatrist has some medicine that could apply.

op00to 8y ago
Huh. SSRIs made my life way better, but I also get sexual side effects. For me, at least, SSRI medication was and remains to be a critical link in mental health treatment.
- drb91 8y ago
  I struggled with the decision to stop taking it because it’s very hard to nail down how it even affects you. Talk therapy proved enormously successful. This is kind of my point, though—if in my case I do NOT have a treatable chemical imbalance, if the medication is certainly not successful, is there any good way to tell?
rhizome 8y ago
Hey if we’re offering sample sizes of one, SSRIs make me sleepy and unmotivated—nearly the opposite of a helpful effect. [...]Bad therapists...prescribe medicine without providing the appropriate support Consider the possibility that you have had bad doctors diagnosing and prescribing for you. Also, there are a lot of therapists that don't (can't) prescribe, maybe it's a good idea to seek help in that direction?