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Apple’s repair kill switch hasn’t been activated yet
- bjoli 8y agoApple is really undoubtedly the king of making their products impossible to repair. This doesn't bother me much since I have long abandoned apple. What bothers me is that everyone follows their bad example. Not only is a modern phone impossible to open, everything is glued in. Even laptops are like this. I have even seen other manufacturers stop using underfill in their phones, just like apple. Probably to make broken phones useful as refurbs. This is leads to phones where chips come off easier (remember apples touch-ic issues and bend gate. That chip didn't have underfill, no proper soldering materials) and an increase in flexion damage. A right to repair doesn't mean much if everything is glued and soldered into place anyway, and with everyone following apple I doubt anything will get better in that regard.
- noitsnot 8y agoYou're not familiar with the Surface Book or Surface Pro manufacturing then. Everything is glued in and there's not even screws in the bottom.
- devoply 8y agoSounds like we need more laws around manufacturing things to make them possible to repair and the prohibition of stopping 3rd party repair. Hell the EU should pass something along these lines. It's pretty much necessary at this point.
- xxs 8y agoA simple scale of build quality and repairablity that must be glued on the box, similar to the energy class (at least in the EU) would be a good start.
- sh87 8y agoInteresting idea. iFixIt releases repairability scores for laptops [1] and phones [2]. As an avid tinkerer, it is shocking and disheartening to see the most popular products on both lists with the least scores ! What is the next generation of tinkerers going to muck their teens around ? [1]: https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability https://www.ifixit.com/laptop-repairability [2]: https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability https://www.ifixit.com/smartphone-repairability
- XorNot 8y agoA mandatory list of tools for full disassembly, sufficient that they can be sourced.
- greglindahl 8y agoIt's easy for me to buy iPhone repair services where I live, despite it being less repairable.
- icantdrive55 8y ago1. A federal right to repair law needs to be enacted. 2. Yes--most people coud care less about ease of reparability, but most people don't know what's best for them anyways? 3. If you buy something, you should have access to all repair manuals/schematics. 4. Any anti-repair shenanigans should be illegial, or only permitted in certain situations. 5. Right now a rich boy buys any wristwatch over $400. That eatch could be an Omega, Rolex, or any of the Swatch Group watches. (Omega is now part of Swatch) They buy the Watch. They take it out of the leather case, with all the documentation. They put their wrist. Throughout the day, they look at that beautiful piece of machinery. It's a good feeling. You worked hard, and that hunk of metal on your wrist just feels right? No--most of you could crack open the case, and fix the watch when it starts to act up, but you should have the right. The right to order a Pallet fork, or a case screw? When you can't repair something; do you really own the watch? When that Watch needs a watch, they can't call up the factory and even order an extra watch link. (I'm yacking about watches, and cars because that's what I work on.) 6. Don't get me started on new vechicles. I took my mom car shopping. She doesn't have much money. She's getting older, and still thinks she's upper middle class in terms of income. She's not. I have bought her last three vechicles, and maintained them. I went to automotive school after I had a nervous breakdown. I'm getting a bit personal? Well I took her to the dealerships. I asked the Salesman about procuring a Service Manual, if we buy a vechicle. He just said, even experienced mechanics can't work on these computers on wheels. I knew this going in. I showed my mom the $260/hr. Service rate beaming from across the fancy waiting room. I'll stop my rant. When a company makes it difficult to repair a product, doesn't that violate The Sherman Anti-Trust Act? I do know a governmental agency looked into Swiss Watch companies demanding that all repairs are done at their pricy factory, but they didn't do anything. They said, it's basically a rich man's problem, and not important enough for further investigation. I live in a wealthy area. These people don't even walk their dogs, or even think about doing any repair on their homes, appliances, or vechicles. I was not brought up that way. I was taught to repair. Apple is blatantly trying to extract more money out of their fanboys. I used to be a Fanboy, but it was during Steve's tenure, and about up to about eight years ago. I find it depressing. Then again my life has been a depressing failure?
- y10 8y agoScreen glue is necessary for waterproofing but I agree with what you’re saying.
- Yetanfou 8y agoYes, and no: - Yes in the sense that the glass needs to be glued (or rather taped as a double-sided tape is used) to create a waterproof seal as the small size of these devices does not allow for a more traditional clamp fit using a rubber gasket. - No because it does not have to be the main body of the device to which the glass is glued/taped. I use the Motorola Defy+ [1], an 8 year old water/dust/shockproof Android device which shows a phone can be both waterproof as well as repair-friendly: the glass is glued to a frame which in turn is attached to the phone using screws. Disassembling the device is easy and quick, all it takes is a small Torx driver and a guitar pick. Assembling it is just as easy, the result will still be waterproof as long as all the rubber gaskets are fitted. I have 5 of these devices in use for different purposes ranging from 'dangerous work phone' to trailer camera and remote-controlled media player (using MPD for Android). In short, it is possible to create waterproof devices which can be repaired without needing to break one-time seals. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Defy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Defy
- xvector 8y ago> the glass is glued to a frame which in turn is attached to the phone using screws I think it would be tragic if the iPhone looked like those Motorola devices. That thing looks hideous. This is strictly against Apple's design philosophy, and for good reason.
- slobotron 8y agoiPhones of similar vintage* (1, 3G, 3GS) looked somewhat similar IMO. (* Technically I guess it's the iPhone 4 that came out same year as Defy, but arguably close enough)
- 2muchcoffeeman 8y agoI think it’s tragic that so much emphasis is placed on the looks of a phone. Most people put them in cases anyway, and the only thing that really matters is the screen and physical button placement. I always thought modern smart phones should have started as a black slab like the 2001 monoliths and just stopped there.
- BurningFrog 8y agoWell, if every manufacturer is doing it, there are probably good reasons for it. I doubt they've all gone mad at the same time.
- throwaway2048 8y agoMarket movements like that can often be kind of like viral internet memes, they can be really really popular, but ultimately stupid. Popularity is not strongly correlated with "sensible and good"
- maxxxxx 8y agoThe reason I can see is to make more money. I have bought a Macbook Pro with more RAM than I needed at the time only to be sure to have the RAM in case I need it later. Otherwise I would have waited and bought the RAM later. I am sure I am not alone. With closing off everything they have more control and can cut out third party competition. It looks like they are successful with IBM's Micro Channel architecture strategy of the 80s.
- Coding_Cat 8y agoWhat's good for manufacturers (the bottom line) is not necessarily good for consumers (or the environment).
- BurningFrog 8y agoBut it is very good for manufacturers (their bottom line) to make what consumers demand. If no one is making the products you'd want them to make, it's probably because no one is buying them, after all.
- arvinsim 8y agoLock-in is a real thing.
- lotsofpulp 8y agoWhat lock-in? Contacts/calendar/email can easily be synced to a new device and all the big utility apps are on both phone OSs.
- torgian 8y agoWell, this isn’t exactly true. You can repair your own phones, you just need the right tools. China is well known for this. Repair shops that have the right tools (vacuum heating chambers, etc) are able to take apart and repair phones.
- shawn 8y agoKeyboards, on the other hand, are now impossible to repair. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KuVvb9DTaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KuVvb9DTaU Interesting. I can edit my comment after it was vouched. Hmm. I could exploit this loophole. But I won't – yet – because I care about HN.
- ndnxhs 8y agoHow many people are buying vacuume heating chambers to swap a battery vs throwing the phone in the bin and buying a new one.
- gfosco 8y agoYou go to a repair shop that has one, which is what the parent poster was referring to.
- ndnxhs 8y agoEvery time I have taken an apple device to a repair shop they have told me they can't get stock of the part or if I take it to an official repairer they charge more than it costs to buy a working second hand version of the device. The option to repair exists in theory but in reality it may as well not.
- EugeneOZ 8y agoIt's a lie. Re-sell price of iPhones is about 70-80% of the original price, and the most expensive repair (full replacement of the unit) costs 46% of the price.
- stevehawk 8y agoI've found my Lenovo and Alienware laptops to be easily modified. I have the latest Alienware 15 and I can access everything that's important which regular screws. Same for the Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga.
- pix64 8y agoI managed to open and repair my phone with a $15 heat gun from Lowe's, an exacto knife and a sheet of plastic cut out of an egg carton. It's definitely doable.
- ndnxhs 8y agoApple doing this should bother you because they are destroying our planet for personal gain.
- krrrh 8y agoThis is really misinformed. Apple has a VP position for environment which is staffed by former head of the EPA Lisa Jackson. At the last keynote event she got a prime time on stage to talk about Apple’s major initiative to make their devices last longer. IOS 12 is running on the 5S, which is a 6 year old phones, and not only that but a major focus for this version was to improve performance on older devices. I use a 5S for travel and as a test device and it is still perfectly usable, maybe more so than ever. There is no other manufacturer of computer equipment that comes close to maintaining service and usability on older devices than Apple at this point, and this has been shown over and over again by the resale value that their older devices still command. Many Android phones, even Nexus and Pixel devices only received updates for 1.5-2 years after their last sell date. You’ll find very few companies that focus as much on environmental impact, and Apple recycles any product they have ever manufactured at their own expense. See here: https://www.apple.com/ca/environment/ https://www.apple.com/ca/environment/
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- xg15 8y agoI used my Nexus 5 for 5 years with updates, then put LineageOS on it for another year. Then it broke because of a faulty home button switch. However, I could have purchased a replacement mainboard to still keep it running. More generally, I'm not sure 1.5 years vs 6 years is the correct order of magnitude when talking about environmental impact. Call me back when I can use a phone for 20 years.
- alkonaut 8y agoAn iPhone is surprisingly repairable, and after the switch to the rounded chassis (with iPhone6) I’d consider it more repairable than the earlier iphone5 form factor. The only part that is using any significant adhesive is the battery, it can’t be fit because it needs to be able to grow, so it is fit into a too large space using a piece of adhesive tape to not move around. The phone is built to be quickly servicable by Apple technicians, so obviously no cables are soldered, everything is using easy to fit ribbon connectors. I’d have no training and found it easy to replace many parts in iPhones such as e.g the screen. There are parts that Apple have made harder to user replace such as the fingerprint/home button module but that at least has good reason. I recommend the ifixit step by step repair guides that also make it obvious that repairing a modern smartphone is not much different if it says google or Apple or Samsung on the back. The only major difference is a user accessible battery in some models.
- tinus_hn 8y agoA major difference is that Apple does not sell parts to anyone who is not a licensed repair partner. All these screens you can put in your phone are fakes, refurbished or parts of stolen phones.
- alkonaut 8y agoThis is a good point: iphones are easily serviced physically but you may not get the parts. There have also been rumors that some parts would not be replaceable unless you used original parts but I have never had any problems with “original” parts (eg refurb screen with new 3rd party glass), obviously if a phone required parts one could not buy it can’t be considered user serviceable at all.
- koffiezet 8y agoApple even issued an iOS update once to address incompatibility issues with 3rd party replacement displays...
- colejohnson66 8y ago
- vbezhenar 8y agoI don't know about phones, but there are laptops which are relatively easy to disassemble and have replaceable parts. I, personally, would buy only those laptops if I would need one.
- missjellyfish 8y agoThat is, until Lenovo decides that they want to have a say in what WiFi cards you can install. Fortunately IDA 7 Free and a Buspirate fixed that. Would be a shame if any PCIe cards would be accepted, wouldn‘t it... FYI, the patch was less than ten bytes long. Inconvenient non the less.
- shagen 8y agoLenovo stopped the whitelusting with the 50 Models. I tried two internal wifi m2 ngff cards that are not listed as compatible in my x260 and both were working.
- mratzloff 8y agoLike a dope, I dropped my iPhone Xs a week after I bought it and the back glass shattered. Everything is glued together on the back, so they had to replace the entire phone. With AppleCare+, that's $99 plus tax. Without, it's $549 plus tax—half the cost of the phone.
- JJMcJ 8y agoThe original Mac Classic had the CMOS battery soldered to the motherboard. It also had a sealed case, voiding warranty. The iPod was "sleek", and being able to open the case to replace the battery "would have made it less sleek".
- Spivak 8y agoI mean this seems very reasonable from Apple's perspective. They're trying to avoid their brand being tarnished by bad repair shops with questionable repair skills cutting corners with cheap and unsupported parts. Given how large the resale market is for Apple products I would even say that this is an extremely positive policy because as long as the machine boots you can be pretty darn sure your MacBook is just like you would get from an Apple store. However, I think there's a happy middle ground here for people that want to use those cheap and unsupported parts. When the OS boots just make sure the user is made aware that they're running on unsupported hardware and recommend taking it to an authorized Apple repair shop if they want fix that.
- simion314 8y agoRepair shops have also parts from other products, so say an old Macbook is unfixable but some parts are salvaged like say a screen, this parts are original Apple parts. Same for phones there are original parts too in the repair shops not only third party.
- chrsstrm 8y agoIn your first paragraph, if you swap Apple for John Deere, do you still believe what you wrote? The general consensus around right to repair that was discussed during the John Deere incident favored users. But now that Apple is (planning on) doing the same thing, it's reasonable?
- csydas 8y agoThis is a tricky subject, imo, because even if Apple is just being money grubbing, there is a positive outlook on this. Finding reliable 3rd party parts for Apple products, even without Apple's meddling, is like cartwheeling through a mine field. My first post-university job was a lot of end user hardware support, and finding reliable parts that worked as advertised (for all brands) was a nightmare. Even previously reliable sites would switch inventory and suddenly get cheap knockoffs, which fit and looked like the real thing, but did absolutely nothing. With iPhones in particular, this is horrible -- replacing a battery is a terrible experience just from a purchasing point of view. The actual process itself is not bad (and well documented by sites like ifixit), but you don't know about the issues until you have the part in hand and it sucks. This is a mess for Apple since in a lot of places, third party shops do not care about the parts they order. They put in a replacement part as asked, and now the machine works even worse. As an individual, I'm willing to put out money to a company like ifixit to ensure I've got a working part and I have someone to point to when it doesn't work. For a lot of mom and pop shops that have margins to worry about, suddenly the part actually working isn't that big of a deal. I don't want Apple to have this much power, to be clear. The right answer is instead to open up the official supply chain to third party resellers and drop the anti-competitive price fixing. But I do get their image concerns with regards to the third party ecosystem -- it's not Apple locking out third parties, it's third parties just making terrible products.
- derefr 8y agoI understood the “kill switch” to be a “warranty (i.e. AppleCare) void” switch more than a literal kill switch. You can, with enough work, make any computer—even one that’s not from Apple—into a working Mac. But there’s no amount of effort you can go to that will make Apple suddenly decide to offer warranty coverage on your Hackintosh. I imagine the point here would be to effectively treat computers cobbled together out of externally-sourced Apple compatible parts (i.e. parts where the computer doesn’t “know” it’s not a Mac) as equivalent to Hackintoshes from a warranty standpoint. This is partially justified—as it stands, a repair shop can actually take 50% of the parts from a Mac, replace them with compatible parts, then build a new computer from the 50% of parts you took out and other compatible parts, and end up delivering two Macs that would both be considered to be under warranty. (Not that they have AppleCare registrations, but that they’re under legally madated first-year warranty coverage in many jurisdictions.) The software Apple has developed circumvents this problem. You might not agree with it, and it might have some other negative consequences... but what other solution is there to this particular problem? (I mean, besides eating the repair costs of—and even assuming legal liability for!—these “faux” Macs.)
- xg15 8y agoThere is a difference between voiding the warranty and effectively bricking the device though.
- s3krit 8y ago>but what other solution is there to this particular problem? I don't know, letting the machine run despite having a voided warranty would be a good start.
- detaro 8y agoIn which jurisdiction is this actually a thing that happens? I don't see how Apple's scope of liability is extended to parts they (or an authorized partner) haven't put into the machine. (and I'd suspect they'd generally not be responsible for parts moved to a different machine either, since the warranty to covers the device, not an extracted part) And how would you a describe something that stops the system from being used not as a "literal killswitch"?!
- petedoyle 8y agoGiven Apple's strong stance on privacy and not making backdoors for encryption, etc-- could they possibly be trying to prevent supply chain interdictions from the likes of the NSA? [1] Or be trying to detect things like we saw this week? [2] [1] https://techcrunch.com/2014/05/18/the-nsa-cisco-and-the-issue-of-interdiction/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/05/18/the-nsa-cisco-and-the-issu... [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies?srnd=businessweek-v2 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h...
- pertsix 8y agoit's to prevent chop-shop theft.
- xxs 8y agoYes, because taking one of their repair kits would be naught impossible? The technique has nothing to do with security.
- xvector 8y agoIt's pretty obvious when an iPhone X is repaired. Apple's strict stance on security means it's not impossible that this was done for security. A kill-switch on unauthorized modifications has a massive positive impact for device security.
- Yetanfou 8y agoNo, they're trying to make sure they get their pound of flesh any time one of 'their' devices needs to be repaired. If the NSA (et al) are really serious about having hooks into Apple products they'll make sure to get them [1], glued screens and batteries and firmware kill-switches notwithstanding. If it were about privacy and security Apple could have the device display a warning when it detected tampering and leave it to the user how to act on this, a bit like some Android devices react when the bootloader is unlocked. They could also sell OEM spare parts which could be used by third-party repair shops to repair devices and use a verification routine to re-certify the device (which then would not display a 'tampered' warning, instead showing a 'repair log' in some hidden settings screen). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_(surveillance_program)
- TaylorGood 8y agoI dropped my iPhone X with a front and back cover yet glass still broke on both sides. It happens, but thanks to the rear glass being welded to frame and new front glass technology it costs $828 to replace. Repair shops are charging more than Apple store. $279 for Front glass $549 for Rear glass
- r00fus 8y agoLast time this happened to me - (I dropped my iPhone 5 on a ride and a car subsequently ran over the device) Apple simply quoted me $299 to replace the device. Also carrier insurance/replacement programs are also good options.
- joncrane 8y agoThat's part of the deal when you buy an Apple device.
- ericabiz 8y agoThe good news is that the back glass price should change here in the next few weeks. I run independent repair shops (not affiliated with Apple) and literally today we did our first test on a new back glass removal tool we bought. We successfully removed the back glass on an iPhone 8 housing we purchased broken. These devices just hit the US a few days ago, so give it a few weeks and I would expect independent shops to offer back glass replacement in the $99-$149 range. This is also why Right to Repair is so important. These tools are not built or sanctioned by Apple, but the demand is there, so third parties build, test, and verify them to help reduce prices for iPhone owners like you.
- pentae 8y agoThe issue is Apple are not going to start use this 3rd party tool and drop their glass back repair price from $549 to $149. People will need to still take their phones to 3rd parties to get a reasonable price. This is why we need 3rd party repair options so badly
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y agoMeh, the iPhone X is still very new. As more are stolen and stripped for parts the prices should come down. Great for the consumer!
- seltzered_ 8y agoLet’s put a different take on this. What if the kill switch is presented as an option to the customer upon purchase? So if your preference is security over repairability you enable it, vice versa you don’t?
- wpdev_63 8y agoWhile macbook is top notch hardware and MacOs is the best *nix os out there, this is the last straw. I will not being giving anymore money to apple with its anti-consumer business practices. Can some one recommend a good cloud MacOs vm solution for ios development? Or better yet, a rock solid hackintosh build that won't go to shit every update? I don't mind paying good money for a good product but this is ridiculous.
- ru999gol 8y agoYour best bet with Mac OS X virtual machines is giving it a dedicated gpu using pcie passthrough with linux as the host.
- wpdev_63 8y agoI just tried running macos within vmware and I am excited to see it working with some patches. MacOs is a nice *nix OS but I am not willing to shell out for the apple tax when ubuntu is a perfectly good workhorse.
- mikkelam 8y agoAnother choice is to build a hackintosh, not that bad these days
- lostlogin 8y agoThe leader in making repairable equipment that I’ve messed with is Mazzer. Their coffee grinders are fantastic and repairs consist of opening the unit with standard tools, unplugging the broken bit then buying a new part off the dealer or plugging in some other thing I want. Grinders 30 year old are readily repaired and parts are interchangeable with new machines. Upgrades are modular and plug on to the base chassis. Some units have a security screw but it’s only ever been finger tight when I’ve found them. I’m some sort of Mazzer evangelist now and live in fear of them ever changing.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y agoKitchenAid and Miele spring to mind also.
- doombolt 8y agoI don't see how criminal law will not also be activated after them if they try.
- grecy 8y agoI wonder if the kill switch will only be activated once you report the phone stolen or lost with find my phone? That would prevent chop-n-sell of parts...
- vezycash 8y agoIsn't this "kill switch" Apple's solution to the server attack that they claim never happened?
- EugeneOZ 8y agoIt's not a rent, it's purchase - I should be able to do whatever I want with the purchased item. It's absolutely not Apple's right to tell me what to do after they got the money. Where's that "private property" rule, I thought it's kind of holy testament in the USA.
- castratikron 8y agoYou mean "ownership is nine-tenths of the law"?
- teddyh 8y agoThat’s possession, not ownership. That’s what I always understood to be the meaning of the saying “possession is 9/10s of the law”: The person with physical possession of an object has an enormous advantage, regardless of its actual ownership.
- wildchild 8y agoApple is a scam.
- ferongr 8y agoIt's interesting, whenever it comes to Apple, the average HNer is willing to go incredible lengths and suffers extreme cognitive dissonance in order to defend practices they would blast other manufacturers for.