6 ms·

Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage, I cared about keeping that flexibility. Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non

Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage, I cared about keeping that flexibility. Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start. This change affects “display assembly, logic board, top case (the keyboard, touchpad, and internal housing), and Touch ID board”. I could see wanting an alternate, after-market keyboard, but otherwise am happy to stick with Apple parts. The main hindrance, as others point out, seems to be for people in sparser areas with no authorized repair shop.

paavoova 8y ago
> Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage They still can, by purchasing an older laptop or newer "business class" device. A 2011 Sandy-bridge Thinkpad is perfectly usable even today, and is serviceable in most aspects from battery, SATA/PCIe slots, aftermarket display, and even the CPU on some models. > Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start. Which is exactly why it's so important to have the freedom to repair. It's no longer a simple SSD swap that any end-user can perform themselves, now to do any such repairs you need specialized tools, knowledge of circuitry, and even a dedicated lab. For Apple to hinder these efforts is Apple turning otherwise perfectly serviceable parts into disposable junk that only they have the capacity to repair - it doesn't need to be like this. > The main hindrance What about the hindrance in being restricted in servicing and repairing something you paid for and own? Have you heard about John Deere and their practices?
- secabeen 8y ago
  Yep. Lenovo T-series laptops are still chock full of Field Replaceable Units (FRUs). And they still publish the maintenance manual to tell you exactly how to replace them: https://ok2.de/media/ThinkPad/HMM/t480s-hmm_en.pdf https://ok2.de/media/ThinkPad/HMM/t480s-hmm_en.pdf
  - MikeAmelung 8y ago
    Yep, and you don't even have to worry about installing spyware because it came with it from the factory!
  - MisterOctober 8y ago
    Word. T520 / T61 user here -- upgrades and repairs are a breeze compared to when I was using an MBP -- to say nothing of the design that is actually ergonomically sound [within reason] as opposed to merely cool-looking
- tomjen3 8y ago
  My p51 has upgradable storage, an extra slot for more m2 storage and I can double the ram. The obvious tradeoff is that it is heavier and thicker than similar machines. Also the power brick is gigantic.
Waterluvian 8y ago
Requiring authorized/first party repair is manifestly bad. Consider what the automobile landscape would look like if the same were true.
- nerdponx 8y ago
  See also: John Deere and tractor repair.
- beamatronic 8y ago
  It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to backlog. But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I was no longer disappointed.
  - AnthonyMouse 8y ago
    > It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to backlog. That's growing pains though. Give it a few years and there should be greater parts availability and independent electric car repair shops. > But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I was no longer disappointed. There are a lot of bad mechanics out there. The trouble is as many of them work for the dealerships as not, so it's not much of a filter in general. Even if the quality at dealerships is slightly higher, the possibility of going to an independent shop is the only thing keeping their prices in check. Or their service quality for that matter. You'll find no trouble getting service for your ten year old car. Ask Apple to support your ten year old iPhone.
    - dreamcompiler 8y ago
      Car dealers love repairing cars because the repair shop is where most of their profit comes from. Not so with Apple, which makes most of their profit on hardware sales. I expect this is at least partly a ploy by Apple to discourage repairs altogether, so they can sell more new hardware. Virtually all of Apple's behavior for the last 10 years has supported that idea.
blihp 8y ago
... and anyone who likes to keep their system a good long time https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 Given the lackluster upgrade options in the last 5+ years, I can see a lot of people trying to hang on to their next/last PC as long as possible. Now they'll have no options once Apple decides their system is done.
- exodust 8y ago
  Not to mention the limits being reached into raw processor power. Hanging on to our devices (and receiving software updates) makes a lot of sense from the user's point of view. I find it disgusting that Apple labels my iPad 3 "vintage" and refuses to give it updates, not even browser updates or security patches. They cannot claim to be looking after this planet's interests or user interests by abandoning their hardware after only a pathetic 5 years. They need to step up and offer a solution to an e-waste problem they are creating in the first place.
  - nradov 8y ago
    Apple does offer a trade-in and recycling program so that old devices can be properly disposed of. https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in
    - exodust 8y ago
      That's clearly not the point, and a lousy suggestion. Why would I want to "dispose of" perfectly functioning hardware which has no fault except for reaching an artificial expiry date imposed by its maker? The best way to help the environment is to build things that last, keeping them alive for as long as possible if people choose to do that. Apple says NO, they don't give a stuff. "Buy a new ipad because you'll be supporting Apple, and we make millions of the things, there's unlimited Earth resources allowing us to do that."
- mokus 8y ago
  I just spent a day eviscerating my 2012 unibody MacBook Pro to replace its keyboard and battery. It’s a little depressing to think that after over 2 decades of using Apple hardware and software it will probably be the last thing I ever buy from them.
xbkingx 8y ago
What dystopic future world do you live in where everything is integrated on every device? Maybe for phones, but that kind of lock-in isn't THAT common. It even makes economic sense for OEMs to use standard parts, so it's not like upgradeable RAM is some wild fantasy. And making a replacement a hassle is waaaay different from making it impossible. This is a HUGE problem and probably the most anti-consumer move I've ever seen. Let's ignore that it actively discourages users (think students and kids) from tinkering with computer parts and learning, which was how I got into technology. It affects all non-Apple Authorized repair shops, which are currently able to take salvaged working parts from broken machines to provide fixes at a fraction of the cost. Right now, Authorized repair shops are forced to buy parts directly from Apple at basically double the cost, so many do not have a large stock of newer or more rare parts on hand. Apple has moved towards selling entire assemblies and not individual parts - logic boards include CPUs, coolers, RAM, etc. So, if you have a busted USB port, you're getting all of that replaced and paying for it. Does your MacBook Pro have a busted keyboard key? Let's hope the heat didn't warp any of those warranty void stickers, because you're getting a new entire top half of the chassis, trackpad, and battery. Even though those stickers are not legally binding, I'm about 98% sure they CAN be enforced through the service provider's contract with Apple. AASP are "permitted to deny service for any product that has been opened or modified by a customer, regardless of warranty, both for safety reasons and to avoid responsibility if the machine cannot be fixed.” Regardless of warranty. To get fair prices, AASPs return broken parts to Apple for recycling, so any aftermarket fixes mean the AASP gets the crazy price if they look the other way. It's in Apple's best interest to void an active warranty, and they have plenty of nit picky, obnoxious tests that are fully sanctioned by the company. It isn't that you can't get a warrantied device repaired by a certified technician - it's that you can a device, regardless of warranty, repaired AT ALL. The AASP are the only ones that could use these special tools. They are punishing you even if you repair it successfully. Imagine if you were completely unable to start your car because you took it to a non-certified auto shop for a timing belt. The new belt is fine, but it wasn't 'activated' by the manufacturer, and now no certified shop will touch the car because it's blacklisted. They won't even put a new certified belt on and activate it because to get the belt at a reasonable price, they have to send the entire engine back to the manufacturer with a ruined certified belt, and even then there would be a record of Shop X assisting with Y machines that failed the Certified Tool Test. Let's take a closer look at Shop X's replacement part submissions... Looks like this user replaced their wiper fluid with a slightly more blue wiper fluid. Warranty voided. Locking out third party repairs means you do not own your computer - Apple is allowing you to use it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/18/linus-tech-tips-imac-pro-repair-video/ https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/18/linus-tech-tips-imac-pr...
wlll 8y ago
I'd love to be able to replace the storage in this Mid 2014 Macbook Pro, I'm pretty sure it's on its way out (about every 2 weeks the filesystem and finder completely hang). I can buy an SSD for a couple of hundred £, and I have replaced the disks in a fair number of older macs (mostly spinning rust -> SSD) for family members. The cost of getting it replaced by Apple would be a lot higher, and if it turns out that wasn't the issue then I don't have a spare SSD to use as external storage either.
nickflood 8y ago
Check out the XPS 15 9570 (2018 version), it has wi-fi card, SSD and RAM all slotted and standard form-factor. And every other part is cheap and available to be bought and replaced if not by you, then by anyone who has the skill. Apple and other manufacturers make it hard to believe that a slick light modern laptop can't be easy to repair, but it in fact can be, if you engineer it to be serviced on-site.
- ntsplnkv2 8y ago
  Then why hasn't a manufacturer done it? I still haven't found a laptop that has a trackpad anywhere was good as a Macbook. Still waiting. I'm still waiting for this mythical huge market of people who want to tinker and repair everything themselves. It doesn't exist. It's a vocal minority on here, and nothing more.
  - nickflood 8y ago
    My point is that it has been done, repeatedly, by many manufacturers over many years. You can find a YouTube channel called Dave2D, the guy reviews Windows and Mac laptops and always takes the cover off and shows upgrade options, most 15" laptops have RAM, SSD and Wi-Fi upgradeable. Until about a year ago, in 13" systems, the SSD AND Wi-Fi were also upgradeable but lately they've been soldering the Wi-Card onboard (it still is a standard form-factor and you could replace the Wi-Fi with another one using a hot air rework station). The trackpad is unrelated to repairability. In my opinion, XPS 15 has a very good trackpad which closely matches MacBook's. My thinking about why MacBook's trackpads are better is that there are two reasons - one is that Apple holds some kind of patent on some kind of tech or way of making trackpads (they bought a manufacturer long ago), plus there's a problem with slow adoption of the new scrolling APIs by Windows app developers. All of the UWP apps are fine by default, but the older way of writing UI in Win32 apps leads to them not being able to retrofit the smooth scrolling into the apps. Even Windows Explorer's scrolling is quite bad in this regard compared to Finder. This really is a personal question of whether it's fine for you to sacrifice some things for others. I know, I prefer to be able to replace the keyboard on the laptop myself with a $20 part instead of $150 part (and lots of hassle where you can permanently damage the Mac in the process), but some people would actually not care about that. What I adressed in the parent comment were the facts that there are in fact quite a number of laptops that are repairable and upgradeable right now on the market, and they've got little in terms of compromises built in.

paavoova 8y ago

> Back when end users could replace (upgrade) RAM and storage They still can, by purchasing an older laptop or newer "business class" device. A 2011 Sandy-bridge Thinkpad is perfectly usable even today, and is serviceable in most aspects from battery, SATA/PCIe slots, aftermarket display, and even the CPU on some models. > Now those are soldered to the motherboard and generally non-upgradeable from the start. Which is exactly why it's so important to have the freedom to repair. It's no longer a simple SSD swap that any end-user can perform themselves, now to do any such repairs you need specialized tools, knowledge of circuitry, and even a dedicated lab. For Apple to hinder these efforts is Apple turning otherwise perfectly serviceable parts into disposable junk that only they have the capacity to repair - it doesn't need to be like this. > The main hindrance What about the hindrance in being restricted in servicing and repairing something you paid for and own? Have you heard about John Deere and their practices?

secabeen 8y ago
Yep. Lenovo T-series laptops are still chock full of Field Replaceable Units (FRUs). And they still publish the maintenance manual to tell you exactly how to replace them: https://ok2.de/media/ThinkPad/HMM/t480s-hmm_en.pdf https://ok2.de/media/ThinkPad/HMM/t480s-hmm_en.pdf
- MikeAmelung 8y ago
  Yep, and you don't even have to worry about installing spyware because it came with it from the factory!
- MisterOctober 8y ago
  Word. T520 / T61 user here -- upgrades and repairs are a breeze compared to when I was using an MBP -- to say nothing of the design that is actually ergonomically sound [within reason] as opposed to merely cool-looking
tomjen3 8y ago
My p51 has upgradable storage, an extra slot for more m2 storage and I can double the ram. The obvious tradeoff is that it is heavier and thicker than similar machines. Also the power brick is gigantic.

Waterluvian 8y ago

Requiring authorized/first party repair is manifestly bad. Consider what the automobile landscape would look like if the same were true.

nerdponx 8y ago
See also: John Deere and tractor repair.
beamatronic 8y ago
It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to backlog. But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I was no longer disappointed.
- AnthonyMouse 8y ago
  > It’s true for Tesla. Especially for body work. Takes many weeks due to backlog. That's growing pains though. Give it a few years and there should be greater parts availability and independent electric car repair shops. > But anecdotally, after many many years of disappointing experiences with independent repair shops, when I could finally afford repairs at the dealer, I was no longer disappointed. There are a lot of bad mechanics out there. The trouble is as many of them work for the dealerships as not, so it's not much of a filter in general. Even if the quality at dealerships is slightly higher, the possibility of going to an independent shop is the only thing keeping their prices in check. Or their service quality for that matter. You'll find no trouble getting service for your ten year old car. Ask Apple to support your ten year old iPhone.
  - dreamcompiler 8y ago
    Car dealers love repairing cars because the repair shop is where most of their profit comes from. Not so with Apple, which makes most of their profit on hardware sales. I expect this is at least partly a ploy by Apple to discourage repairs altogether, so they can sell more new hardware. Virtually all of Apple's behavior for the last 10 years has supported that idea.

blihp 8y ago

... and anyone who likes to keep their system a good long time https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624 Given the lackluster upgrade options in the last 5+ years, I can see a lot of people trying to hang on to their next/last PC as long as possible. Now they'll have no options once Apple decides their system is done.

exodust 8y ago
Not to mention the limits being reached into raw processor power. Hanging on to our devices (and receiving software updates) makes a lot of sense from the user's point of view. I find it disgusting that Apple labels my iPad 3 "vintage" and refuses to give it updates, not even browser updates or security patches. They cannot claim to be looking after this planet's interests or user interests by abandoning their hardware after only a pathetic 5 years. They need to step up and offer a solution to an e-waste problem they are creating in the first place.
- nradov 8y ago
  Apple does offer a trade-in and recycling program so that old devices can be properly disposed of. https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in https://www.apple.com/shop/trade-in
  - exodust 8y ago
    That's clearly not the point, and a lousy suggestion. Why would I want to "dispose of" perfectly functioning hardware which has no fault except for reaching an artificial expiry date imposed by its maker? The best way to help the environment is to build things that last, keeping them alive for as long as possible if people choose to do that. Apple says NO, they don't give a stuff. "Buy a new ipad because you'll be supporting Apple, and we make millions of the things, there's unlimited Earth resources allowing us to do that."
mokus 8y ago
I just spent a day eviscerating my 2012 unibody MacBook Pro to replace its keyboard and battery. It’s a little depressing to think that after over 2 decades of using Apple hardware and software it will probably be the last thing I ever buy from them.

xbkingx 8y ago

What dystopic future world do you live in where everything is integrated on every device? Maybe for phones, but that kind of lock-in isn't THAT common. It even makes economic sense for OEMs to use standard parts, so it's not like upgradeable RAM is some wild fantasy. And making a replacement a hassle is waaaay different from making it impossible. This is a HUGE problem and probably the most anti-consumer move I've ever seen. Let's ignore that it actively discourages users (think students and kids) from tinkering with computer parts and learning, which was how I got into technology. It affects all non-Apple Authorized repair shops, which are currently able to take salvaged working parts from broken machines to provide fixes at a fraction of the cost. Right now, Authorized repair shops are forced to buy parts directly from Apple at basically double the cost, so many do not have a large stock of newer or more rare parts on hand. Apple has moved towards selling entire assemblies and not individual parts - logic boards include CPUs, coolers, RAM, etc. So, if you have a busted USB port, you're getting all of that replaced and paying for it. Does your MacBook Pro have a busted keyboard key? Let's hope the heat didn't warp any of those warranty void stickers, because you're getting a new entire top half of the chassis, trackpad, and battery. Even though those stickers are not legally binding, I'm about 98% sure they CAN be enforced through the service provider's contract with Apple. AASP are "permitted to deny service for any product that has been opened or modified by a customer, regardless of warranty, both for safety reasons and to avoid responsibility if the machine cannot be fixed.” Regardless of warranty. To get fair prices, AASPs return broken parts to Apple for recycling, so any aftermarket fixes mean the AASP gets the crazy price if they look the other way. It's in Apple's best interest to void an active warranty, and they have plenty of nit picky, obnoxious tests that are fully sanctioned by the company. It isn't that you can't get a warrantied device repaired by a certified technician - it's that you can a device, regardless of warranty, repaired AT ALL. The AASP are the only ones that could use these special tools. They are punishing you even if you repair it successfully. Imagine if you were completely unable to start your car because you took it to a non-certified auto shop for a timing belt. The new belt is fine, but it wasn't 'activated' by the manufacturer, and now no certified shop will touch the car because it's blacklisted. They won't even put a new certified belt on and activate it because to get the belt at a reasonable price, they have to send the entire engine back to the manufacturer with a ruined certified belt, and even then there would be a record of Shop X assisting with Y machines that failed the Certified Tool Test. Let's take a closer look at Shop X's replacement part submissions... Looks like this user replaced their wiper fluid with a slightly more blue wiper fluid. Warranty voided. Locking out third party repairs means you do not own your computer - Apple is allowing you to use it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/18/linus-tech-tips-imac-pro-repair-video/ https://www.macrumors.com/2018/04/18/linus-tech-tips-imac-pr...

wlll 8y ago

I'd love to be able to replace the storage in this Mid 2014 Macbook Pro, I'm pretty sure it's on its way out (about every 2 weeks the filesystem and finder completely hang). I can buy an SSD for a couple of hundred £, and I have replaced the disks in a fair number of older macs (mostly spinning rust -> SSD) for family members. The cost of getting it replaced by Apple would be a lot higher, and if it turns out that wasn't the issue then I don't have a spare SSD to use as external storage either.

nickflood 8y ago

Check out the XPS 15 9570 (2018 version), it has wi-fi card, SSD and RAM all slotted and standard form-factor. And every other part is cheap and available to be bought and replaced if not by you, then by anyone who has the skill. Apple and other manufacturers make it hard to believe that a slick light modern laptop can't be easy to repair, but it in fact can be, if you engineer it to be serviced on-site.

ntsplnkv2 8y ago
Then why hasn't a manufacturer done it? I still haven't found a laptop that has a trackpad anywhere was good as a Macbook. Still waiting. I'm still waiting for this mythical huge market of people who want to tinker and repair everything themselves. It doesn't exist. It's a vocal minority on here, and nothing more.
- nickflood 8y ago
  My point is that it has been done, repeatedly, by many manufacturers over many years. You can find a YouTube channel called Dave2D, the guy reviews Windows and Mac laptops and always takes the cover off and shows upgrade options, most 15" laptops have RAM, SSD and Wi-Fi upgradeable. Until about a year ago, in 13" systems, the SSD AND Wi-Fi were also upgradeable but lately they've been soldering the Wi-Card onboard (it still is a standard form-factor and you could replace the Wi-Fi with another one using a hot air rework station). The trackpad is unrelated to repairability. In my opinion, XPS 15 has a very good trackpad which closely matches MacBook's. My thinking about why MacBook's trackpads are better is that there are two reasons - one is that Apple holds some kind of patent on some kind of tech or way of making trackpads (they bought a manufacturer long ago), plus there's a problem with slow adoption of the new scrolling APIs by Windows app developers. All of the UWP apps are fine by default, but the older way of writing UI in Win32 apps leads to them not being able to retrofit the smooth scrolling into the apps. Even Windows Explorer's scrolling is quite bad in this regard compared to Finder. This really is a personal question of whether it's fine for you to sacrifice some things for others. I know, I prefer to be able to replace the keyboard on the laptop myself with a $20 part instead of $150 part (and lots of hassle where you can permanently damage the Mac in the process), but some people would actually not care about that. What I adressed in the parent comment were the facts that there are in fact quite a number of laptops that are repairable and upgradeable right now on the market, and they've got little in terms of compromises built in.