11 ms·

Rifts Break Open at Facebook Over Kavanaugh Hearing

87 points by coloneltcb 8y ago

damm 8y ago
I am thankful for the rift opening and the employee's pushing back against the usual tactics. (You don't have to work here; don't push your personal political agenda's into the company and make them front stage) It's a way to dismiss a person in the worst way; saying your opinion doesn't matter.
- r00fus 8y ago
  Especially if that person being dismissed was themselves a survivor. Sounds like FB had a major own-goal moment.
- bnastic 8y ago
  > You don't have to work here; don't push your personal political agenda's into the company and make them front stage Well, that used to be the case. When Facebook employees become as strongly opposed to the shady, borderline criminal, activities of their employer that they themselves (literally) enable through the code they write, then just maybe I'll be inclined to be more sympathetic to their other grievances.
minimaxir 8y ago
> folks i talk to recall the internal rancor as greater than after the 2016 presidential election. https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/1047959561573822465 https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/1047959561573822465
1999 8y ago
Can anyone recommend a good book on the period before the American Civil War? Not the war itself, just the wind up. I'd also be interested in something similar but for the Yugoslav wars.
- beat 8y ago
  Not the Civil War or Yugoslav war, but you might find the Hardcore History podcast series "Countdown to Armageddon" enlightening. It's about World War I, including the run-up to the war. He has 20+ hours of material, and it's absolutely chilling. If you're looking for an analogy to American politics as "second civil war", it won't help. But if you're looking for how two sides are willing to destroy themselves trying to destroy each other, it's amazing.
  - thrower123 8y ago
    To stick with Dan Carlin, I think another applicable episode is Prophets of Doom, detailing the story of the city of Munster during the German Wars of Religion. Populism, charismatic leaders, conflict of neighbor against neighbor. The current situation has more of the feel of a religious schism to me than something like the Civil War, which was a largely regional division.
- zapita 8y ago
  If you’re looking for a connection between the civil war and modern US politics, I recommend reading about what happened immediately after the war, rather than immediately before. That period is called the Reconstruction, and it failed miserably, in a way that deeply shaped the political landscape, and still does to this day. The buildup to the war was about slavery. The aftermath of the war was about what we replaced slavery with... and it’s not pretty. Here’s an article with a few book recommendations to get you started. https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/2015/04/25/seven-books-reconstruction/U5XhSS7k52ppqA4DBpkTzK/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/2015/04/25/seven-books-reco... I personally recommend “Reconstruction, America’s Unfinished Revolution” by Eric Foner. It’s a solid read but well worth it in my opinion.
- dbt00 8y ago
  The first third of "Battle Cry of Freedom" is very good with respect to that.
- walshemj 8y ago
  Team of rivals covers Lincon and several key members of his cabinet and the lead up to the war.
dvtrn 8y ago
Mr. Kaplan’s surprise appearance prompted anger and shock among many Facebook employees, some of whom said they took his action as a tacit show of support for Judge Kavanaugh — as if it were an endorsement from Facebook itself. This is about as far removed as I can possibly take myself from casting value judgement in one direction or another wrt Kavanaugh and the allegations against him but there's something weird in the air when one can't even be seen in the same vicinity as someone accused of {thing_goes_here} without someome somewhere connecting all sorts of dots that have no business being connected and being one reflexive twitch away from having their character assassinated in the worst possible ways.
- lenzm 8y ago
  It's not just being seen with someone. He went to a public, televised hearing to sit behind him. It's a show of support coming from a public face of FB.
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    "him" is his friend FTA. I feel like there's a gap between appearing at these hearings at surface level and showing up because its your friend giving testimony. Maybe I'm being too nuanced and applying too much of the human element by looking at it like so but it's that very gap between supporting Kabanaugh the nominee who lost his temper in a SJC hearing and supporting Kavanaugh his friend accused of sexual assault and the focus of a Senate confirmation and FBI investigation that makes me take the position I have here.
    - paulmd 8y ago
      It's pretty well-established that you can be fired or suffer repercussions by your employer, for things that you do on your own personal time. There's plenty of people who did something shocking or offensive, a video went viral, and they found they'd lost their mcjob, so let's not pretend this is unusual at all. If anything stricter standards should be applied to upper management than to the rank-and-file, because part of the job is absolutely to be publically representing facebook, so it's really unsurprising that people are perceiving it as such. Keeping your nose clean is part of why they pay you the big bucks. Kaplan is free to go to this as a private citizen, people are free to be shocked by it, and Facebook is free to do something about it if the negative attention becomes a liability. That's how things work. Unlike the McJob worker, if they do want to get rid of him, he'll have a nice golden parachute, I'm sure.
thrower123 8y ago
I'm very grateful to be working at a little company that makes a technically interesting but politically boring product. Work is, for me, not a place to get feather-white about politics, I just fix bugs and talk to customers and troubleshoot problems and develop some features and go home. Talk to the coworkers about our kids and what we're doing over the weekend. It's a very laid-back atmosphere that prioritizes what's right in front of you and doesn't demand a lot of idealism, just competence and bringing in enough profit that we do alright.
- raphlinus 8y ago
  I'm with you. Whichever side you're on, Facebook's products and services now have a role in society where their decisions will inevitably have a deep impact. In some cases, like the Rohingya crisis, lives are literally at stake. It's not just Facebook, either. I got tired of getting a sick feeling every time I woke up to see my employer in another controversy, which is a large part of the reason I'm an indie game developer now.
- spankalee 8y ago
  It's great that you get to escape the reality of Republicans working to undermine American democracy at work. Consider that a great privilege. Lots of people don't have the benefit of forgetting their troubles during the day.
- debt 8y ago
  ". Work is, for me, not a place to get feather-white about politics, I just fix bugs and talk to customers and troubleshoot problems and develop some features and go home. Talk to the coworkers about our kids and what we're doing over the weekend." Not to go all Godwin's Law here but...
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  I hear you, I like the idea of separating out politics from work, but I’m increasingly feeling like everything intersects with politics, and to be apolitical in any area of life is itself a political action in one direction or another. Maybe it’s just a reflection of how partisanship infects everything, but...it still infects everything, so not sure that pretending otherwise is intellectually honest. That doesn’t mean we can’t treat each other with respect or consider other viewpoints, of course.
oh-kumudo 8y ago
Damn, the outrage culture is just so uncomfortable. How could this be contained?
- thrill 8y ago
  By hiring adults?
- guelo 8y ago
  Shutdown Facebook?
- ironic_ali 8y ago
  Given the current media clickbait consciousness, we should be outraged. "Outrage culture is outrageous, but try this one $imple trick....."
- pjc50 8y ago
  Well, outrage could be reduced by not doing outrageous things like the entire Kavanaugh appointment process (or indeed the non appointment of Garland). The culture war works both ways. Until someone reins in the provocation culture the outrage will continue.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Jyaif 8y ago
  I think people have a fixed amount of complaining they need to do, regardless of the environment they live in. As the standard of living improve, the outrages will more and more concern non important things.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    No, I think the complaining has increased, not just stayed the same. Maybe as things improve, expectations improve faster? "Perfection is almost within reach! All we have to do is eliminate these few remaining flaws..."
flatline 8y ago
And the conservative underbelly of SV once again peeks out from beneath its plaid flannel facade. Tuck it back in there, Zuck, and all will be fine again for a little while longer! This is another byproduct of the startup lottery culture: we idolize the people who made it big, ignoring the realities of classism in the fight to the top.
poulsbohemian 8y ago
When the senate majority leader is speaking on the floor of the senate and complains about Americans using their constitutional rights to free assembly and ability to petition their representatives, then frankly, our Republic has jumped the shark. It's over. Forget pretending any of this is working, because it's obviously not. The only question is how it will crumble from here.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  How is it not working in any real physical sense?
  - omegaworks 8y ago
    By confirming Kavanaugh, Senate Republicans are elevating a person that has committed repeated acts of perjury in sworn testimony to the highest court in the land[1]. He stands accused of sexual assault, and instead of fully reviewing the facts and allowing a third party to investigate every lead, Republicans in the White House have tied the FBI's hands[2]. Worse, they've done this and have chosen to mislead the American public into believing that they are not doing this[3]. 1. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh-is-lying https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh... 2. https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1047887560612216832 https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1047887560612216832 3. https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1047879134737780737 https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1047879134737780737
    - throwmeaway133 8y ago
      I am 100% sure omegaworks sexually assaulted me several years ago at a meetup. So now, by your own standards you are standing accused of sexual assault and therefore your opinion is no longer valid, so please refrain from commenting until you are cleared by the FBI investigation, which I am hoping you will gladly request to clear your name.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    Because we wouldn't even be at this point if it hadn't been for that same majority leader pocketing the nomination of another candidate during the previous administration, with no precedent or legal basis, and with no repercussions or ramifications. We have a majority in the senate that is ruling without regard for law or the voice of the people.
beaner 8y ago
Sounds like you don't work with a lot of millenials, that might be another factor.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  I can’t wait until this lazy, tired anti-generational trope moves on to the next generation.
  - gnicholas 8y ago
    I don't think this is the typical "gen blah is lazy/entitled". This is a specific description of how young people today want to "bring their whole selves to work". As far as I know, this claim was never made about prior generations. Full disclosure, I am on the old side of the millenial generation, though I have never identified as a millenial. To me, I'm Gen Y: born in the early 80s, and I remember life before personal computers were common.
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      I’m same age as you, and all my peers are grumpy-“I don’t care what demographers day, I’m not a millennial!” millennials too ;) We didn’t have computers as kids, but we came of age when technology was transforming the world. We think and live in terms of technology in a way that is starkly different from the generations before us, and after us. We’re millennials.
      - tonyarkles 8y ago
        As someone right on the edge between Gen X and Millenials (with traits of both), I’m delighted to call myself part of the Oregon Trail Generation.
- dang 8y ago
  We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18143921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18143921 and marked it off-topic.
bassman9000 8y ago
Rifts breaks because a reporter wants it to be real so it can be reported, magnifying the response from some extremely vocal employees, and ignoring the rest Sounds about right
Gatsky 8y ago
This seems like an odd reaction from employees. There are many places you can go to work where the institution has clear values and a mission. Fb isn’t one of those places, that should be abundantly clear by now. So what’s behind this overreaction? The dual need to get paid a fortune and be able to virtue signal about your employer’s political alignment at dinner parties?
- r00fus 8y ago
  > Fb isn’t one of those places, that should be abundantly clear by now. Do you work there or know someone close who does? This small glimpse into their corporate culture (not to mention Mark or Sharyl's public speeches) is not really indicative of what the ground-level culture is like. My guess: they're an SV company and the liberal-majority culture of the valley infuses FB.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dunpeal 8y ago
Are the political moods and opinions of big tech employees now a matter of daily news reports? For every event, there will be front page news stories alerting us to Facebook / Google / Amazon / Apple employees' reactions? This is our news now?
- Jach 8y ago
  At least until the companies figure out how to crack down on whoever leaks internal discussions to the press. I clicked this after seeing "Rift" and "Facebook" thinking it was some Oculus news, should have read the full title first...
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    > At least until the companies figure out how to crack down on whoever leaks internal discussions to the press. Considering these companies have tens of thousands of employees, that will never happen. It's impossible to prevent leaks with these kinds of numbers, and you can be sure the media would raise a huge stink if even one employee is punished for leaking. They would ruthlessly protect their sources. It's just very unfortunate how politics is becoming such a major issue in what's supposed to be the leading edge of American technology. Instead of innovation, technical merit, sound engineering, and all the other things these employments are supposed to be about. Politics and divisive discourse and posturing are squeezing out the important matters, and making people uncomfortable at work, a place supposed to be about work.
    - lovich 8y ago
      You cannot get to the scale of Facebook or Google without being political. These are tech companies in that they sell tech. They are not tech companies as in parties who are only interested in building the best products using technology. As far as how they act silicon valley is turning just as bad as Wall Street
      - dunpeal 8y ago
        > You cannot get to the scale of Facebook or Google without being political. There's plenty of counterexamples. There's huge companies much bigger than FB and Google that were never political outside of tech. Even in tech, you have Microsoft for example. I don't recall them ever being political in the 90s when they got huge. In fact, they don't seem political right now.
guelo 8y ago
“If you need to change teams, companies or careers to make sure your day-to-day life matches your passions, we will be sad to see you go, but we will understand,” Mr. Bosworth wrote. “We will support you with any path you choose. But it is your responsibility to choose a path, not that of the company you work for.” Wow. I hope engineers do quit. It's been unhealthy to the Silicon Valley ecosystem how many engineers Facebook has been hoovering up.
- repolfx 8y ago
  I hope they do too. I don't know who Bosworth is or if he's implementing officially decided policy here, but I hope he is. It's been incredibly unhealthy for tech firms to cowtow to every whim of their most extreme employees. I spent years at Google and it was astonishing sometimes the ludicrous crybaby behaviour some engineers could get away with. When it was just complaints about the food or reskinning a product it was not that dangerous. Now it's become a tool of all out political warfare, it's well past time these employees are told to get a grip or leave. Facebook won't suffer for it, it'll benefit - yes they may have a marginally smaller workforce, but which would they prefer? A slightly lower number of A/B experiments on their new dating product or whatever the marginal recent increase in headcount is working on? Or a happier and healthier internal atmosphere for all?
gcc_programmer 8y ago
Why are people outraged before a sentence is pronounced? Are allegations now enough to convict someone? What happened to the West? Is this the beginning of the end ?
- dbt00 8y ago
  not a criminal trial, standards of evidence don't apply. You just watched a federal judge commit several baldfaced lies and rant about political hits. That's not acceptable conduct for the supreme court, full stop.
  - fein 8y ago
    "We just coordinated a partisan effort to accuse you of sexual assault from an incident no one can remember that occurred 35 years ago, and drag you and your family through the media mud and also call you a gang rapist for an added bonus. Why are you so upset?" Do you expect the guy to be some sort of emotionless robot? This is classic Alisnky tactics combined with some form of infinite projected purity spiraling to raise the standard for an SC judge to inhuman levels. Thankfully, the right has finally come around to not caring about these tactics being employed by the left.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - r00fus 8y ago
      I expect that whoever the candidate is, they have a bit more damn decorum. This is a job-for-life. We can do better. Hell the guy who interviewed before (Garland) wasn't that bad.
- pjc50 8y ago
  There's no sentence or prosecution here, it's a job appointment. I'm unclear why there is apparently only one candidate and we can't just have someone less controversial.
  - 8y ago
jwineinger 8y ago
It seems like it is a problem for these people because they've assumed guilt already. Accusations are not proof in and of themselves. I've got no problem with someone supporting a friend while they're defending themselves, no matter their role in a company.
- spankalee 8y ago
  Guilt isn't the whole problem here. Ramming through a life-long political operative who can't help but lie and show extreme partisanship during testimony, and running a sham coverup for an investigation, are the problem. I'd be pissed if a high-level executive in charge of policy of my company showed support for that.
- jbob2000 8y ago
  I think most people were on the fence about Kav until he gave his testimony. At that point, we saw he was a true piece of shit. I don’t care if he’s guilty or not, I just don’t want someone with that kind of attitude on the Supreme Court. He lacks discipline and self control, and can’t separate his emotions from his business. To have a Facebook exec supporting this child is really telling about that exec.
- obpacheco 8y ago
  That's the craziness of this whole thing, we're dividing America over an accusation that hasn't been able to be substantiated by any other parties. We're confronted with the most basic form of a "he said, she said" scenario. And you have half the country who assumes innocence, and half who assumes guilt, and these assumptions are made completely on where your political allegiances lie.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    There's actually three different accusers, but I guess in America a female witness's testimony is worth 1/3 of that of a man's?
    - kbenson 8y ago
monochromatic 8y ago
What an awful place to work. Show of support for a conservative friend? Browbeat him into submission, punish the wrongthink!
40acres 8y ago
When it comes to Fortune 500 companies, I think employees are looking for their employers to display the types of values they hold in their actions. Whether that means removing support for conflict minerals, fair wages, etc. In all, its understandable. Americans tie their occupation to their identify, but I think we are starting the encroach upon the limits of these expectations. I think the critism of Kaplan is fair not only because he's an executive at Facebook, but because he's their top policy guy and Facebook as been railroaded by the right because of suspicion of bias. It's obviously within his will to show support for his friend, but as someone who I'd think has a feel for politics this was a terrible political/optical move. Especially to be within camera shot of Kavanaugh.
jobigoud 8y ago
"Rift" is the name of a hardware device from Facebook. At first I was confused about how on Earth Kavanaugh hearing was responsible for breaking open Oculus Rifts.
jf- 8y ago
American culture seems to have become deeply intolerant of differences of opinion. Everything is now a scorched-earth, winner takes all battle, with no attempt at compromise or de-escalation. Everyone is a combatant, every word and action is seized upon to be weaponised. I’m not talking about the debacle currently unfolding in the senate here either, I mean the entire atmosphere is unbelievably toxic and has been for some time, and on both sides. Americans are actively dehumanising each other. Everyone needs to calm down and stop hating or this is going to end very badly.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Totally agree. Everybody is out to be angry and punish somebody.
- unique_id 8y ago
  It's liberals that are intolerant of other peoples views (or so the studies say).
  - obscurantist 8y ago
    Those studies have generally shown liberals to be only somewhat less tolerant, as an aggregate. Most liberals are still tolerant, as are most conservatives.
    - unique_id 8y ago
      The difference is rather extreme: http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2018/05/a-survey-of-dartmouths-political-and-free-speech-climate http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2018/05/a-survey-of-dart... What is intolerance anyway? It's not believing that a certain behavior is wrong. That's not intolerance. Intolerance is shouting people down because you don't agree with them or creating a hostile environment for opposing viewpoints. That's a behavior that reminds me of one side much more than the other. I'm not putting blame here. One side just takes politics more seriously, for now.
gdy 8y ago
What a kindergarden
r32a_ 8y ago
Can't remember the last time I heard a positive news from Facebook
adamrezich 8y ago
Somewhat off-topic, but: For the first time ever today, I got a "Sponsored (political)" tweet on my timeline, from Kamala Harris (whom I do not follow), saying: "We need just 198,248 more people to reach our new goal of 1.5 million Americans against Brett Kavanaugh’s nomination to the Supreme Court of the United States. Will you add your name right now?" When did Twitter start doing "Sponsored (political)"? This seems like a terrible idea.
- wmf 8y ago
  What's terrible about it? Do you object to political advertising in general?
  - adamrezich 8y ago
    I don't regularly consume content that contains political advertising. Until today Twitter has never engaged in directly politically advertising to me. Thus it was surprising to see this come up in my timeline--and not in a positive way. The tweet itself also assumes I can't think logically for myself and reach my own conclusions on this whole nomination shitshow, and instead urgently advises me to join in with the [large number] of other people who all believe the same thing, as if that number should be a reason for me to change my mind. This particular tweet comes off as startlingly desperate, only made worse by the fact that it's the first "Sponsored (political)" tweet I've had. The whole thing was a highly negative experience and made me think less of Twitter, the Democrats, Mrs. Harris, and this entire political thing happening right now. Maybe that appeal to bandwagon bullshit sways the minds of idiots, but not me. The whole thing is incredibly insulting to everyone's intelligence.
kukx 8y ago
I respect him for standing behind his long-time friend. And I am scared of people that react to it as if they were fighting for their lives.
Firebrand 8y ago
Maybe Facebook should shut down the message board or limit the discussion to specific topics, at least. Letting junior employees think their opinions matter is an enormous mistake.
smsm42 8y ago
This is getting insane. So ousting people from jobs for holding non-lefty political views is not enough. Now a person who has a non-lefty friend or is seen in public with a non-lefty person that is currently undergoing unpersoning campaign is a ground for profound apologies too (and maybe much more, the deed is not done yet and I won't surprise if by the end of it Joel Kaplan decides to spend more time with his family). No, I stand corrected. This is not getting insane. This is firmly, two feet planted, inside insane territory. Is that what working at Facebook is like - if you go as controversial as supporting a Supreme Court judge, or a lifelong friend, or the idea of due process, you are basically not fit to work there? The small spark of sanity from Zuckerberg does not overcome the overall impression. Maybe NYT is exaggerating things and this is just small vocal minority which does not reflect the climate in this huge company. One can certainly hope so. But is it true? Is here somebody working for FB that can say if it's indeed as this article seems to suggest - that FB has "policies" that one may violate by merely appearing in public near somebody like Judge Kavanaugh? That your position in the company and your job may be questioned and threatened if you do something like that?
- nutmegged 8y ago
  I think you are missing one big point here. Not just someone working at FB went to support Kavanaugh. This person is the VP of global policies so technically he represents FB and the values of it and he did it without seeking any consultations from the company. Nowadays it seems like everything remotely related to politics has to be discussed in left/right sides, no buffering area. People has to be left or right. What surprises me is the lack of sympathy, seeing things from other people's perspective in both sides. At first I felt like that some of my female friends were overreacting to this Kavanaugh case because Kavanaugh could be totally innocent but I then learned that some of the complaints/remarks are not even about politics. It's more about their personal experience related to sexual harassment. And they did soften their views on the Kavanaugh case when I explained my perspective to them. The point here is that people should communicate, not start internet fights. Sympathy is the key and face-to-face communication probably work better than internet. What I see mostly on the internet when it comes to politics, even on YC, is pointing fingers at each other and that drives people even further away, more extreme to their views. Back to Facebook, I think it's one of the greatest companies in the world. Just how many companies in the world that would allow such discussion inside the company? Questioning one of the highest executives? Questioning the CEO/Boss? The opinion of every employee matters? And still function so well? Wow, unheard of. People in Silicon Valley is definitely leaning way more toward left than right, especially at big tech firms. However, such open communication inside the company is remarkable and it kind of mirrors the real word when it comes to US politics. Though such open communication can be biased, skewed to one-sided opinion but removing the open communication will not resolve the root problems. Open communication, even online fights, is better than no communication at all. I originally came from a country with complete dictatorship and any discussions about politics/government is banned completely online. It seems very "peaceful and stable" and does have quite a lot of advantages (with millions of problems lurking around) than democracy. However, I think in US it may seem very chaotic/annoying inside the company/country, but it performs well as a whole. The VP who supported Kavanaugh and Zuckerberg seemed to stand their original side and no stories of FB employees going crazy/quitting job coming out (yet?) after this. The point here is democracy, in my opinion, is a privilege and credits should be given to Facebook/Zuckerberg for cultivating such open and unique culture. That's my two cents. Peace out.

87 points by coloneltcb 8y ago

damm 8y ago

I am thankful for the rift opening and the employee's pushing back against the usual tactics. (You don't have to work here; don't push your personal political agenda's into the company and make them front stage) It's a way to dismiss a person in the worst way; saying your opinion doesn't matter.

r00fus 8y ago
Especially if that person being dismissed was themselves a survivor. Sounds like FB had a major own-goal moment.
bnastic 8y ago
> You don't have to work here; don't push your personal political agenda's into the company and make them front stage Well, that used to be the case. When Facebook employees become as strongly opposed to the shady, borderline criminal, activities of their employer that they themselves (literally) enable through the code they write, then just maybe I'll be inclined to be more sympathetic to their other grievances.

minimaxir 8y ago

> folks i talk to recall the internal rancor as greater than after the 2016 presidential election. https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/1047959561573822465 https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/1047959561573822465

1999 8y ago

Can anyone recommend a good book on the period before the American Civil War? Not the war itself, just the wind up. I'd also be interested in something similar but for the Yugoslav wars.

beat 8y ago
Not the Civil War or Yugoslav war, but you might find the Hardcore History podcast series "Countdown to Armageddon" enlightening. It's about World War I, including the run-up to the war. He has 20+ hours of material, and it's absolutely chilling. If you're looking for an analogy to American politics as "second civil war", it won't help. But if you're looking for how two sides are willing to destroy themselves trying to destroy each other, it's amazing.
- thrower123 8y ago
  To stick with Dan Carlin, I think another applicable episode is Prophets of Doom, detailing the story of the city of Munster during the German Wars of Religion. Populism, charismatic leaders, conflict of neighbor against neighbor. The current situation has more of the feel of a religious schism to me than something like the Civil War, which was a largely regional division.
zapita 8y ago
If you’re looking for a connection between the civil war and modern US politics, I recommend reading about what happened immediately after the war, rather than immediately before. That period is called the Reconstruction, and it failed miserably, in a way that deeply shaped the political landscape, and still does to this day. The buildup to the war was about slavery. The aftermath of the war was about what we replaced slavery with... and it’s not pretty. Here’s an article with a few book recommendations to get you started. https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/2015/04/25/seven-books-reconstruction/U5XhSS7k52ppqA4DBpkTzK/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/2015/04/25/seven-books-reco... I personally recommend “Reconstruction, America’s Unfinished Revolution” by Eric Foner. It’s a solid read but well worth it in my opinion.
dbt00 8y ago
The first third of "Battle Cry of Freedom" is very good with respect to that.
walshemj 8y ago
Team of rivals covers Lincon and several key members of his cabinet and the lead up to the war.

dvtrn 8y ago

Mr. Kaplan’s surprise appearance prompted anger and shock among many Facebook employees, some of whom said they took his action as a tacit show of support for Judge Kavanaugh — as if it were an endorsement from Facebook itself. This is about as far removed as I can possibly take myself from casting value judgement in one direction or another wrt Kavanaugh and the allegations against him but there's something weird in the air when one can't even be seen in the same vicinity as someone accused of {thing_goes_here} without someome somewhere connecting all sorts of dots that have no business being connected and being one reflexive twitch away from having their character assassinated in the worst possible ways.

lenzm 8y ago
It's not just being seen with someone. He went to a public, televised hearing to sit behind him. It's a show of support coming from a public face of FB.
- dvtrn 8y ago
  "him" is his friend FTA. I feel like there's a gap between appearing at these hearings at surface level and showing up because its your friend giving testimony. Maybe I'm being too nuanced and applying too much of the human element by looking at it like so but it's that very gap between supporting Kabanaugh the nominee who lost his temper in a SJC hearing and supporting Kavanaugh his friend accused of sexual assault and the focus of a Senate confirmation and FBI investigation that makes me take the position I have here.
  - paulmd 8y ago
    It's pretty well-established that you can be fired or suffer repercussions by your employer, for things that you do on your own personal time. There's plenty of people who did something shocking or offensive, a video went viral, and they found they'd lost their mcjob, so let's not pretend this is unusual at all. If anything stricter standards should be applied to upper management than to the rank-and-file, because part of the job is absolutely to be publically representing facebook, so it's really unsurprising that people are perceiving it as such. Keeping your nose clean is part of why they pay you the big bucks. Kaplan is free to go to this as a private citizen, people are free to be shocked by it, and Facebook is free to do something about it if the negative attention becomes a liability. That's how things work. Unlike the McJob worker, if they do want to get rid of him, he'll have a nice golden parachute, I'm sure.

thrower123 8y ago

I'm very grateful to be working at a little company that makes a technically interesting but politically boring product. Work is, for me, not a place to get feather-white about politics, I just fix bugs and talk to customers and troubleshoot problems and develop some features and go home. Talk to the coworkers about our kids and what we're doing over the weekend. It's a very laid-back atmosphere that prioritizes what's right in front of you and doesn't demand a lot of idealism, just competence and bringing in enough profit that we do alright.

raphlinus 8y ago
I'm with you. Whichever side you're on, Facebook's products and services now have a role in society where their decisions will inevitably have a deep impact. In some cases, like the Rohingya crisis, lives are literally at stake. It's not just Facebook, either. I got tired of getting a sick feeling every time I woke up to see my employer in another controversy, which is a large part of the reason I'm an indie game developer now.
spankalee 8y ago
It's great that you get to escape the reality of Republicans working to undermine American democracy at work. Consider that a great privilege. Lots of people don't have the benefit of forgetting their troubles during the day.
debt 8y ago
". Work is, for me, not a place to get feather-white about politics, I just fix bugs and talk to customers and troubleshoot problems and develop some features and go home. Talk to the coworkers about our kids and what we're doing over the weekend." Not to go all Godwin's Law here but...
ryanwaggoner 8y ago
I hear you, I like the idea of separating out politics from work, but I’m increasingly feeling like everything intersects with politics, and to be apolitical in any area of life is itself a political action in one direction or another. Maybe it’s just a reflection of how partisanship infects everything, but...it still infects everything, so not sure that pretending otherwise is intellectually honest. That doesn’t mean we can’t treat each other with respect or consider other viewpoints, of course.

oh-kumudo 8y ago

Damn, the outrage culture is just so uncomfortable. How could this be contained?

thrill 8y ago
By hiring adults?
guelo 8y ago
Shutdown Facebook?
ironic_ali 8y ago
Given the current media clickbait consciousness, we should be outraged. "Outrage culture is outrageous, but try this one $imple trick....."
pjc50 8y ago
Well, outrage could be reduced by not doing outrageous things like the entire Kavanaugh appointment process (or indeed the non appointment of Garland). The culture war works both ways. Until someone reins in the provocation culture the outrage will continue.
deleted 8y ago
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Jyaif 8y ago
I think people have a fixed amount of complaining they need to do, regardless of the environment they live in. As the standard of living improve, the outrages will more and more concern non important things.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  No, I think the complaining has increased, not just stayed the same. Maybe as things improve, expectations improve faster? "Perfection is almost within reach! All we have to do is eliminate these few remaining flaws..."

flatline 8y ago

And the conservative underbelly of SV once again peeks out from beneath its plaid flannel facade. Tuck it back in there, Zuck, and all will be fine again for a little while longer! This is another byproduct of the startup lottery culture: we idolize the people who made it big, ignoring the realities of classism in the fight to the top.

poulsbohemian 8y ago

When the senate majority leader is speaking on the floor of the senate and complains about Americans using their constitutional rights to free assembly and ability to petition their representatives, then frankly, our Republic has jumped the shark. It's over. Forget pretending any of this is working, because it's obviously not. The only question is how it will crumble from here.

eanzenberg 8y ago
How is it not working in any real physical sense?
- omegaworks 8y ago
  By confirming Kavanaugh, Senate Republicans are elevating a person that has committed repeated acts of perjury in sworn testimony to the highest court in the land[1]. He stands accused of sexual assault, and instead of fully reviewing the facts and allowing a third party to investigate every lead, Republicans in the White House have tied the FBI's hands[2]. Worse, they've done this and have chosen to mislead the American public into believing that they are not doing this[3]. 1. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh-is-lying https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-we-know-kavanaugh... 2. https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1047887560612216832 https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1047887560612216832 3. https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1047879134737780737 https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1047879134737780737
  - throwmeaway133 8y ago
    I am 100% sure omegaworks sexually assaulted me several years ago at a meetup. So now, by your own standards you are standing accused of sexual assault and therefore your opinion is no longer valid, so please refrain from commenting until you are cleared by the FBI investigation, which I am hoping you will gladly request to clear your name.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  Because we wouldn't even be at this point if it hadn't been for that same majority leader pocketing the nomination of another candidate during the previous administration, with no precedent or legal basis, and with no repercussions or ramifications. We have a majority in the senate that is ruling without regard for law or the voice of the people.

beaner 8y ago

Sounds like you don't work with a lot of millenials, that might be another factor.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
I can’t wait until this lazy, tired anti-generational trope moves on to the next generation.
- gnicholas 8y ago
  I don't think this is the typical "gen blah is lazy/entitled". This is a specific description of how young people today want to "bring their whole selves to work". As far as I know, this claim was never made about prior generations. Full disclosure, I am on the old side of the millenial generation, though I have never identified as a millenial. To me, I'm Gen Y: born in the early 80s, and I remember life before personal computers were common.
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    I’m same age as you, and all my peers are grumpy-“I don’t care what demographers day, I’m not a millennial!” millennials too ;) We didn’t have computers as kids, but we came of age when technology was transforming the world. We think and live in terms of technology in a way that is starkly different from the generations before us, and after us. We’re millennials.
    - tonyarkles 8y ago
      As someone right on the edge between Gen X and Millenials (with traits of both), I’m delighted to call myself part of the Oregon Trail Generation.
dang 8y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18143921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18143921 and marked it off-topic.

bassman9000 8y ago

Rifts breaks because a reporter wants it to be real so it can be reported, magnifying the response from some extremely vocal employees, and ignoring the rest Sounds about right

Gatsky 8y ago

This seems like an odd reaction from employees. There are many places you can go to work where the institution has clear values and a mission. Fb isn’t one of those places, that should be abundantly clear by now. So what’s behind this overreaction? The dual need to get paid a fortune and be able to virtue signal about your employer’s political alignment at dinner parties?

r00fus 8y ago
> Fb isn’t one of those places, that should be abundantly clear by now. Do you work there or know someone close who does? This small glimpse into their corporate culture (not to mention Mark or Sharyl's public speeches) is not really indicative of what the ground-level culture is like. My guess: they're an SV company and the liberal-majority culture of the valley infuses FB.

deleted 8y ago

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dunpeal 8y ago

Are the political moods and opinions of big tech employees now a matter of daily news reports? For every event, there will be front page news stories alerting us to Facebook / Google / Amazon / Apple employees' reactions? This is our news now?

Jach 8y ago
At least until the companies figure out how to crack down on whoever leaks internal discussions to the press. I clicked this after seeing "Rift" and "Facebook" thinking it was some Oculus news, should have read the full title first...
- dunpeal 8y ago
  > At least until the companies figure out how to crack down on whoever leaks internal discussions to the press. Considering these companies have tens of thousands of employees, that will never happen. It's impossible to prevent leaks with these kinds of numbers, and you can be sure the media would raise a huge stink if even one employee is punished for leaking. They would ruthlessly protect their sources. It's just very unfortunate how politics is becoming such a major issue in what's supposed to be the leading edge of American technology. Instead of innovation, technical merit, sound engineering, and all the other things these employments are supposed to be about. Politics and divisive discourse and posturing are squeezing out the important matters, and making people uncomfortable at work, a place supposed to be about work.
  - lovich 8y ago
    You cannot get to the scale of Facebook or Google without being political. These are tech companies in that they sell tech. They are not tech companies as in parties who are only interested in building the best products using technology. As far as how they act silicon valley is turning just as bad as Wall Street
    - dunpeal 8y ago
      > You cannot get to the scale of Facebook or Google without being political. There's plenty of counterexamples. There's huge companies much bigger than FB and Google that were never political outside of tech. Even in tech, you have Microsoft for example. I don't recall them ever being political in the 90s when they got huge. In fact, they don't seem political right now.

guelo 8y ago

“If you need to change teams, companies or careers to make sure your day-to-day life matches your passions, we will be sad to see you go, but we will understand,” Mr. Bosworth wrote. “We will support you with any path you choose. But it is your responsibility to choose a path, not that of the company you work for.” Wow. I hope engineers do quit. It's been unhealthy to the Silicon Valley ecosystem how many engineers Facebook has been hoovering up.

repolfx 8y ago
I hope they do too. I don't know who Bosworth is or if he's implementing officially decided policy here, but I hope he is. It's been incredibly unhealthy for tech firms to cowtow to every whim of their most extreme employees. I spent years at Google and it was astonishing sometimes the ludicrous crybaby behaviour some engineers could get away with. When it was just complaints about the food or reskinning a product it was not that dangerous. Now it's become a tool of all out political warfare, it's well past time these employees are told to get a grip or leave. Facebook won't suffer for it, it'll benefit - yes they may have a marginally smaller workforce, but which would they prefer? A slightly lower number of A/B experiments on their new dating product or whatever the marginal recent increase in headcount is working on? Or a happier and healthier internal atmosphere for all?

gcc_programmer 8y ago

Why are people outraged before a sentence is pronounced? Are allegations now enough to convict someone? What happened to the West? Is this the beginning of the end ?

dbt00 8y ago
not a criminal trial, standards of evidence don't apply. You just watched a federal judge commit several baldfaced lies and rant about political hits. That's not acceptable conduct for the supreme court, full stop.
- fein 8y ago
  "We just coordinated a partisan effort to accuse you of sexual assault from an incident no one can remember that occurred 35 years ago, and drag you and your family through the media mud and also call you a gang rapist for an added bonus. Why are you so upset?" Do you expect the guy to be some sort of emotionless robot? This is classic Alisnky tactics combined with some form of infinite projected purity spiraling to raise the standard for an SC judge to inhuman levels. Thankfully, the right has finally come around to not caring about these tactics being employed by the left.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - r00fus 8y ago
    I expect that whoever the candidate is, they have a bit more damn decorum. This is a job-for-life. We can do better. Hell the guy who interviewed before (Garland) wasn't that bad.
pjc50 8y ago
There's no sentence or prosecution here, it's a job appointment. I'm unclear why there is apparently only one candidate and we can't just have someone less controversial.
- 8y ago

jwineinger 8y ago

It seems like it is a problem for these people because they've assumed guilt already. Accusations are not proof in and of themselves. I've got no problem with someone supporting a friend while they're defending themselves, no matter their role in a company.

spankalee 8y ago
Guilt isn't the whole problem here. Ramming through a life-long political operative who can't help but lie and show extreme partisanship during testimony, and running a sham coverup for an investigation, are the problem. I'd be pissed if a high-level executive in charge of policy of my company showed support for that.
jbob2000 8y ago
I think most people were on the fence about Kav until he gave his testimony. At that point, we saw he was a true piece of shit. I don’t care if he’s guilty or not, I just don’t want someone with that kind of attitude on the Supreme Court. He lacks discipline and self control, and can’t separate his emotions from his business. To have a Facebook exec supporting this child is really telling about that exec.
obpacheco 8y ago
That's the craziness of this whole thing, we're dividing America over an accusation that hasn't been able to be substantiated by any other parties. We're confronted with the most basic form of a "he said, she said" scenario. And you have half the country who assumes innocence, and half who assumes guilt, and these assumptions are made completely on where your political allegiances lie.
- pjc50 8y ago
  There's actually three different accusers, but I guess in America a female witness's testimony is worth 1/3 of that of a man's?
  - kbenson 8y ago

monochromatic 8y ago

What an awful place to work. Show of support for a conservative friend? Browbeat him into submission, punish the wrongthink!

40acres 8y ago

When it comes to Fortune 500 companies, I think employees are looking for their employers to display the types of values they hold in their actions. Whether that means removing support for conflict minerals, fair wages, etc. In all, its understandable. Americans tie their occupation to their identify, but I think we are starting the encroach upon the limits of these expectations. I think the critism of Kaplan is fair not only because he's an executive at Facebook, but because he's their top policy guy and Facebook as been railroaded by the right because of suspicion of bias. It's obviously within his will to show support for his friend, but as someone who I'd think has a feel for politics this was a terrible political/optical move. Especially to be within camera shot of Kavanaugh.

jobigoud 8y ago

"Rift" is the name of a hardware device from Facebook. At first I was confused about how on Earth Kavanaugh hearing was responsible for breaking open Oculus Rifts.

jf- 8y ago

American culture seems to have become deeply intolerant of differences of opinion. Everything is now a scorched-earth, winner takes all battle, with no attempt at compromise or de-escalation. Everyone is a combatant, every word and action is seized upon to be weaponised. I’m not talking about the debacle currently unfolding in the senate here either, I mean the entire atmosphere is unbelievably toxic and has been for some time, and on both sides. Americans are actively dehumanising each other. Everyone needs to calm down and stop hating or this is going to end very badly.

deleted 8y ago
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maxxxxx 8y ago
Totally agree. Everybody is out to be angry and punish somebody.
unique_id 8y ago
It's liberals that are intolerant of other peoples views (or so the studies say).
- obscurantist 8y ago
  Those studies have generally shown liberals to be only somewhat less tolerant, as an aggregate. Most liberals are still tolerant, as are most conservatives.
  - unique_id 8y ago
    The difference is rather extreme: http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2018/05/a-survey-of-dartmouths-political-and-free-speech-climate http://www.thedartmouth.com/article/2018/05/a-survey-of-dart... What is intolerance anyway? It's not believing that a certain behavior is wrong. That's not intolerance. Intolerance is shouting people down because you don't agree with them or creating a hostile environment for opposing viewpoints. That's a behavior that reminds me of one side much more than the other. I'm not putting blame here. One side just takes politics more seriously, for now.

gdy 8y ago

What a kindergarden

r32a_ 8y ago

Can't remember the last time I heard a positive news from Facebook

adamrezich 8y ago

Somewhat off-topic, but: For the first time ever today, I got a "Sponsored (political)" tweet on my timeline, from Kamala Harris (whom I do not follow), saying: "We need just 198,248 more people to reach our new goal of 1.5 million Americans against Brett Kavanaugh’s nomination to the Supreme Court of the United States. Will you add your name right now?" When did Twitter start doing "Sponsored (political)"? This seems like a terrible idea.

wmf 8y ago
What's terrible about it? Do you object to political advertising in general?
- adamrezich 8y ago
  I don't regularly consume content that contains political advertising. Until today Twitter has never engaged in directly politically advertising to me. Thus it was surprising to see this come up in my timeline--and not in a positive way. The tweet itself also assumes I can't think logically for myself and reach my own conclusions on this whole nomination shitshow, and instead urgently advises me to join in with the [large number] of other people who all believe the same thing, as if that number should be a reason for me to change my mind. This particular tweet comes off as startlingly desperate, only made worse by the fact that it's the first "Sponsored (political)" tweet I've had. The whole thing was a highly negative experience and made me think less of Twitter, the Democrats, Mrs. Harris, and this entire political thing happening right now. Maybe that appeal to bandwagon bullshit sways the minds of idiots, but not me. The whole thing is incredibly insulting to everyone's intelligence.

kukx 8y ago

I respect him for standing behind his long-time friend. And I am scared of people that react to it as if they were fighting for their lives.

Firebrand 8y ago

Maybe Facebook should shut down the message board or limit the discussion to specific topics, at least. Letting junior employees think their opinions matter is an enormous mistake.

smsm42 8y ago

This is getting insane. So ousting people from jobs for holding non-lefty political views is not enough. Now a person who has a non-lefty friend or is seen in public with a non-lefty person that is currently undergoing unpersoning campaign is a ground for profound apologies too (and maybe much more, the deed is not done yet and I won't surprise if by the end of it Joel Kaplan decides to spend more time with his family). No, I stand corrected. This is not getting insane. This is firmly, two feet planted, inside insane territory. Is that what working at Facebook is like - if you go as controversial as supporting a Supreme Court judge, or a lifelong friend, or the idea of due process, you are basically not fit to work there? The small spark of sanity from Zuckerberg does not overcome the overall impression. Maybe NYT is exaggerating things and this is just small vocal minority which does not reflect the climate in this huge company. One can certainly hope so. But is it true? Is here somebody working for FB that can say if it's indeed as this article seems to suggest - that FB has "policies" that one may violate by merely appearing in public near somebody like Judge Kavanaugh? That your position in the company and your job may be questioned and threatened if you do something like that?

nutmegged 8y ago
I think you are missing one big point here. Not just someone working at FB went to support Kavanaugh. This person is the VP of global policies so technically he represents FB and the values of it and he did it without seeking any consultations from the company. Nowadays it seems like everything remotely related to politics has to be discussed in left/right sides, no buffering area. People has to be left or right. What surprises me is the lack of sympathy, seeing things from other people's perspective in both sides. At first I felt like that some of my female friends were overreacting to this Kavanaugh case because Kavanaugh could be totally innocent but I then learned that some of the complaints/remarks are not even about politics. It's more about their personal experience related to sexual harassment. And they did soften their views on the Kavanaugh case when I explained my perspective to them. The point here is that people should communicate, not start internet fights. Sympathy is the key and face-to-face communication probably work better than internet. What I see mostly on the internet when it comes to politics, even on YC, is pointing fingers at each other and that drives people even further away, more extreme to their views. Back to Facebook, I think it's one of the greatest companies in the world. Just how many companies in the world that would allow such discussion inside the company? Questioning one of the highest executives? Questioning the CEO/Boss? The opinion of every employee matters? And still function so well? Wow, unheard of. People in Silicon Valley is definitely leaning way more toward left than right, especially at big tech firms. However, such open communication inside the company is remarkable and it kind of mirrors the real word when it comes to US politics. Though such open communication can be biased, skewed to one-sided opinion but removing the open communication will not resolve the root problems. Open communication, even online fights, is better than no communication at all. I originally came from a country with complete dictatorship and any discussions about politics/government is banned completely online. It seems very "peaceful and stable" and does have quite a lot of advantages (with millions of problems lurking around) than democracy. However, I think in US it may seem very chaotic/annoying inside the company/country, but it performs well as a whole. The VP who supported Kavanaugh and Zuckerberg seemed to stand their original side and no stories of FB employees going crazy/quitting job coming out (yet?) after this. The point here is democracy, in my opinion, is a privilege and credits should be given to Facebook/Zuckerberg for cultivating such open and unique culture. That's my two cents. Peace out.