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Well, I like to think persistence matters more but getting into top 1% of everything requires more than determination. 1. Going from bad to good requires x amo

Well, I like to think persistence matters more but getting into top 1% of everything requires more than determination. 1. Going from bad to good requires x amount of effort/persistence. 2. Going from good to best requires 1000x amount of effort. When you've put 800x amount of effort, you'll realize this harsh bitter fact. You have already given up on your hobbies, family, social life, ... and you are still considered as "good+" not "best-". To bypass being-best-barrier you need more than persistence. Things like IQ, family wealth, great coach, ... matter when you are approaching near top of the hill.

madeuptempacct 8y ago
Very much this - average genes, hard work, and sacrifice can generally guarantee upper middle class (barring accidents). Basically, all you need to get there is being a good cog in the machine. That is to say - you come in groomed, you do your job, you study or take night classes, you don't spend your money on having a life, you don't make mistakes which come with fun. Eventually, you will get to your $100,000/year and your 1 mil networth. The sad part is that I have met some really low IQ people who are unable to even prep for a college exam, or the SAT, ACT, MCAT, whatever. So, their innate intelligence or upbringing denies them even the shot at an average comfortable life.
- babymuffin 8y ago
  you are very naive. plenty of these 'really low IQ people' eventually do make it to 100,000 as a result of deception, coercion, wacky HR not understanding anything, etc. think trump. the vast majority of jobs are bullshit and play acting.
- annabellish 8y ago
  Do you have any research backing up this position? It seems to fly in the face of every reputable study I've seen, which suggests the opposite is true - average genes, hard work, and sacrifice is not enough to "guarantee" anything.
  - bpatel576 8y ago
    It seems a bit nieve to think that you need to have an above average IQ to make it into Middleclass society.
    - annabellish 8y ago
      IQ is a garbage measurement that isn't predictive of future results, yes. It's more the hard work and sacrifice part I'm disagreeing with.
      - debacle 8y ago
        IQ is highly predictive of future outcomes. Where are you getting you data from?
        annabellish 8y ago
        IQ is highly predictive of the outcomes of future IQ tests, and to a degree academic performance (though much of academic measurement is based on similar theories, so this is unsurprising) There's much less corellation when you consider "future success" in terms of things like job performance, financial success, happiness, et cetera. IQ is obviously measuring something, because IQ tests are quite reliable, but the thing it's measuring does not seem to show a strong corellation with a lot of real-world goals. It's one of those measurements that people _want_ to use a lot, and so it sees a lot of use, but the idea that you can boil general intelligence down to one number is fallacious to begin with, so many of the things it's used for are not useful. This is literally one of the things the post we're commenting on is saying. High IQ people are not automatically successful and whatever effect high IQ may or may not have on future success is easily lost in other, more significant, factors.
        debacle 8y ago
        > whatever effect high IQ may or may not have on future success is easily lost in other, more significant, factors. IQ correlates with income more than any other factor. When you take away the correlation between socioeconomic situation and IQ (which admittedly there is), it correlates even more. High IQ people are not automatically successful in the same way that tall people are not automatically basketball players. You're making a lot of claims contrary to generally accepted research. It's invaluable, and not in the good way.
- astura 8y ago
  $100,000/year salary and $1M net worth are incredibly specific numbers, where are you getting them from? It's a tautology to claim "average genes, hard work, and sacrifice can generally guarantee upper middle class" because if someone isn't upper middle class you can just claim they don't have average genes, they didn't work hard enough, or they didn't sacrifice enough. None of those things are measurable.
  - madeuptempacct 8y ago
    That's realistic income at 45 with a 4-year degree in some engineering discipline. You can save a mil at that income in 15-20 years.
    - astura 8y ago
      Sure, but what does that have anything to do with the "average person with average genes who works hard and sacrifices?" Most people aren't engineers and most people can't become engineers, the market can't sustain a 200%+ increase in engineers. You seem to merely be saying engineering is a good career. Everyone already knows that. It takes more than hard work to stick out engineering for 20 years, its not a job for everyone, you're going to burn out if you absolutely hate the work. I personally know two mechanical engineers who were both straight A students but hated it once they got to the job. Both didn't even make it to 5 years as engineers.
  - adventured 8y ago
    The median full-time wage in the US is near $50,000 now. That median is a person with two years of college or less. If you have a four year degree with ten years or more of experience (eg you're around 35 years old), in almost anything to do with eg engineering, getting to $100,000 or close to it, is not difficult. The average salary for a person with a bachelor's degree, in the engineering field, first year out of school, is around $65,000 for 2018. Emphasis that that's the first year income. Petroleum engineers with a bachelor's degree earn an average of more than $80,000 their first year out of school. The parent's premise isn't very far out of line, even if it glosses over that the effort required is considerable, and a lot of people simply do not want to be engineers (with the best six figure alternatives for volume being healthcare and sales/biz-dev).
- ummonk 8y ago
  You seem to be assuming there isn’t any genetic component to hard work.
  - madeuptempacct 8y ago
    Willpower can be trained: https://www.apa.org/helpcenter/willpower.aspx https://www.apa.org/helpcenter/willpower.aspx
    - taneq 8y ago
      But what if I can't be bothered? (Seriously. Training willpower takes willpower. If someone has some kind of executive disfunction or something, they literally can't 'just choose the right thing'.)
      - ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
        Very few people have absolute 0 willpower. Excepting those with a medical condition, low willpower individuals can invest that willpower in developing more willpower and get to average levels over time. I've seen this many times working with the homeless and in addiction recovery. It's just like compound interest with investing. Just because you start with a very very small amount doesn't mean it can't grow over time. This is embarrassing as hell to admit, but in high school my ADHD was so bad the only thing I enjoyed was World of Warcraft. I would commonly play for more than 24 hours and couldn't get myself to stop for anything. It completely dominated and ruined my life. You can say video game addiction isn't a thing if you want, but I was definitely acting like it was. Tried alcohol, cocaine, etc.. and never had a problem, but I could not control myself with certain video games. When I started developing my Willpower it was literally with 5 minute breaks every 4 hours. And it was extremely difficult. After a week, I extended those to 15 minute breaks, and it was 6 months before I got my total WOW time to less than 8 hours in a day. But I did it. I'm in my 30's now, and this new World of Warcraft expansion is the only one I haven't played at all. Hoping to keep it that way.
  - wufufufu 8y ago
    "There is no free will." Ok, what implications does that have?
wufufufu 8y ago
There are still plenty of fields where you can start late in life and not come from wealth but still be the best in the world. It's only the most popular and rewarding fields that require a life optimized to be the best to actually be the best.
- astura 8y ago
  >There are still plenty of fields where you can start late in life and not come from wealth but still be the best in the world. Such as?
  - badpun 8y ago
    Stuff from Guiness World Records?
  - wufufufu 8y ago
    https://www.quora.com/What-are-examples-of-some-world-class-athletes-who-started-the-sport-quite-late-in-their-lives https://www.quora.com/What-are-examples-of-some-world-class-...
    - falcolas 8y ago
      It's entertaining to note that many of the "late in life" switches were still in their teens.
    - astura 8y ago
      What? 1) Quora is a garbage site 2) All those examples minus one (which I'll get to) people started before the age of 22. That's not "late in life." 4) The example of the person who started running marathons at 84 has broken records "for his age group." Big deal, there's like, what, less than ~5 people in their 80s running marathons in the world? 5) Just because a few people can do it (and that hasn't even been demonstrated) doesn't mean everyone can with a little work.
      - wufufufu 8y ago
deepGem 8y ago
+1. The method of getting from good to best also matters a lot. A coach definitely helps. You can't become the best of anything, in isolation. Deliberate practice also helps. I was not a believer in deliberate practice but once I started it, I am seeing good results. For instance, I can retain at least 30% more of what I have studied or coded or even just casually read. However, deliberate practice takes a toll. It's excruciating to do it even for 4 hours a day. Maintaining consistency is even harder. I have probably been able to do it for a week over the last couple of months.
baccheion 8y ago
One can enter the top 2% of almost any field in one year, especially with the help of nootropics. It doesn't take much to cross the threshold. If not among the top 2% in such a time, then there was usually zero aptitude. Being the best or getting that much better tends to take more effort.
- majidazimi 8y ago
  Hmmmmm, in case you are a middle eastern immigrant tackling a Ph.D. in the US, it takes around one year (including security check) to take a visa just to get into the US. :D Meanwhile your German rival has arrived 11 months before you and probably had applied for an internship by the time you arrived. I can't stop myself comparing people. :D
  - baccheion 8y ago
    A Ph.D. in what? Top 2% of that field is usually accessible within a year.
    - majidazimi 8y ago
      I wasn't opposing you. I just tried to mention, how easy it is to loose to your rivals by just being born in a wrong country.
speby 8y ago
Yes, agreed. Combination of determination/persistence, belief/self-confidence that success is possible and thus will to continue even in doubt, intelligence, and also interest/passion in a particular area. Align those things and generally some flavor of success is possible for an individual. But why though? Because in general, your "competition" (that is, other people trying to do that same thing) will often lack that trifecta in some shape or form. I do agree with others mentioning comparisons about the top 0.01% and top 1% and top 1% versus top 2% and all that. At a certain point of achievement, virtually everyone at that level possesses that trifecta to some degree or another and then, in those cases, often luck and a little happenstance play a big part in which opportunities emerge and create significant value and success for only a small few individuals.

madeuptempacct 8y ago

Very much this - average genes, hard work, and sacrifice can generally guarantee upper middle class (barring accidents). Basically, all you need to get there is being a good cog in the machine. That is to say - you come in groomed, you do your job, you study or take night classes, you don't spend your money on having a life, you don't make mistakes which come with fun. Eventually, you will get to your $100,000/year and your 1 mil networth. The sad part is that I have met some really low IQ people who are unable to even prep for a college exam, or the SAT, ACT, MCAT, whatever. So, their innate intelligence or upbringing denies them even the shot at an average comfortable life.

babymuffin 8y ago
you are very naive. plenty of these 'really low IQ people' eventually do make it to 100,000 as a result of deception, coercion, wacky HR not understanding anything, etc. think trump. the vast majority of jobs are bullshit and play acting.
annabellish 8y ago
Do you have any research backing up this position? It seems to fly in the face of every reputable study I've seen, which suggests the opposite is true - average genes, hard work, and sacrifice is not enough to "guarantee" anything.
- bpatel576 8y ago
  It seems a bit nieve to think that you need to have an above average IQ to make it into Middleclass society.
  - annabellish 8y ago
    IQ is a garbage measurement that isn't predictive of future results, yes. It's more the hard work and sacrifice part I'm disagreeing with.
    - debacle 8y ago
      IQ is highly predictive of future outcomes. Where are you getting you data from?
      - annabellish 8y ago
        IQ is highly predictive of the outcomes of future IQ tests, and to a degree academic performance (though much of academic measurement is based on similar theories, so this is unsurprising) There's much less corellation when you consider "future success" in terms of things like job performance, financial success, happiness, et cetera. IQ is obviously measuring something, because IQ tests are quite reliable, but the thing it's measuring does not seem to show a strong corellation with a lot of real-world goals. It's one of those measurements that people _want_ to use a lot, and so it sees a lot of use, but the idea that you can boil general intelligence down to one number is fallacious to begin with, so many of the things it's used for are not useful. This is literally one of the things the post we're commenting on is saying. High IQ people are not automatically successful and whatever effect high IQ may or may not have on future success is easily lost in other, more significant, factors.
        debacle 8y ago
        > whatever effect high IQ may or may not have on future success is easily lost in other, more significant, factors. IQ correlates with income more than any other factor. When you take away the correlation between socioeconomic situation and IQ (which admittedly there is), it correlates even more. High IQ people are not automatically successful in the same way that tall people are not automatically basketball players. You're making a lot of claims contrary to generally accepted research. It's invaluable, and not in the good way.
astura 8y ago
$100,000/year salary and $1M net worth are incredibly specific numbers, where are you getting them from? It's a tautology to claim "average genes, hard work, and sacrifice can generally guarantee upper middle class" because if someone isn't upper middle class you can just claim they don't have average genes, they didn't work hard enough, or they didn't sacrifice enough. None of those things are measurable.
- madeuptempacct 8y ago
  That's realistic income at 45 with a 4-year degree in some engineering discipline. You can save a mil at that income in 15-20 years.
  - astura 8y ago
    Sure, but what does that have anything to do with the "average person with average genes who works hard and sacrifices?" Most people aren't engineers and most people can't become engineers, the market can't sustain a 200%+ increase in engineers. You seem to merely be saying engineering is a good career. Everyone already knows that. It takes more than hard work to stick out engineering for 20 years, its not a job for everyone, you're going to burn out if you absolutely hate the work. I personally know two mechanical engineers who were both straight A students but hated it once they got to the job. Both didn't even make it to 5 years as engineers.
- adventured 8y ago
  The median full-time wage in the US is near $50,000 now. That median is a person with two years of college or less. If you have a four year degree with ten years or more of experience (eg you're around 35 years old), in almost anything to do with eg engineering, getting to $100,000 or close to it, is not difficult. The average salary for a person with a bachelor's degree, in the engineering field, first year out of school, is around $65,000 for 2018. Emphasis that that's the first year income. Petroleum engineers with a bachelor's degree earn an average of more than $80,000 their first year out of school. The parent's premise isn't very far out of line, even if it glosses over that the effort required is considerable, and a lot of people simply do not want to be engineers (with the best six figure alternatives for volume being healthcare and sales/biz-dev).
ummonk 8y ago
You seem to be assuming there isn’t any genetic component to hard work.
- madeuptempacct 8y ago
  Willpower can be trained: https://www.apa.org/helpcenter/willpower.aspx https://www.apa.org/helpcenter/willpower.aspx
  - taneq 8y ago
    But what if I can't be bothered? (Seriously. Training willpower takes willpower. If someone has some kind of executive disfunction or something, they literally can't 'just choose the right thing'.)
    - ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
      Very few people have absolute 0 willpower. Excepting those with a medical condition, low willpower individuals can invest that willpower in developing more willpower and get to average levels over time. I've seen this many times working with the homeless and in addiction recovery. It's just like compound interest with investing. Just because you start with a very very small amount doesn't mean it can't grow over time. This is embarrassing as hell to admit, but in high school my ADHD was so bad the only thing I enjoyed was World of Warcraft. I would commonly play for more than 24 hours and couldn't get myself to stop for anything. It completely dominated and ruined my life. You can say video game addiction isn't a thing if you want, but I was definitely acting like it was. Tried alcohol, cocaine, etc.. and never had a problem, but I could not control myself with certain video games. When I started developing my Willpower it was literally with 5 minute breaks every 4 hours. And it was extremely difficult. After a week, I extended those to 15 minute breaks, and it was 6 months before I got my total WOW time to less than 8 hours in a day. But I did it. I'm in my 30's now, and this new World of Warcraft expansion is the only one I haven't played at all. Hoping to keep it that way.
- wufufufu 8y ago
  "There is no free will." Ok, what implications does that have?

wufufufu 8y ago

There are still plenty of fields where you can start late in life and not come from wealth but still be the best in the world. It's only the most popular and rewarding fields that require a life optimized to be the best to actually be the best.

astura 8y ago
>There are still plenty of fields where you can start late in life and not come from wealth but still be the best in the world. Such as?
- badpun 8y ago
  Stuff from Guiness World Records?
- wufufufu 8y ago
  https://www.quora.com/What-are-examples-of-some-world-class-athletes-who-started-the-sport-quite-late-in-their-lives https://www.quora.com/What-are-examples-of-some-world-class-...
  - falcolas 8y ago
    It's entertaining to note that many of the "late in life" switches were still in their teens.
  - astura 8y ago
    What? 1) Quora is a garbage site 2) All those examples minus one (which I'll get to) people started before the age of 22. That's not "late in life." 4) The example of the person who started running marathons at 84 has broken records "for his age group." Big deal, there's like, what, less than ~5 people in their 80s running marathons in the world? 5) Just because a few people can do it (and that hasn't even been demonstrated) doesn't mean everyone can with a little work.
    - wufufufu 8y ago

deepGem 8y ago

+1. The method of getting from good to best also matters a lot. A coach definitely helps. You can't become the best of anything, in isolation. Deliberate practice also helps. I was not a believer in deliberate practice but once I started it, I am seeing good results. For instance, I can retain at least 30% more of what I have studied or coded or even just casually read. However, deliberate practice takes a toll. It's excruciating to do it even for 4 hours a day. Maintaining consistency is even harder. I have probably been able to do it for a week over the last couple of months.

baccheion 8y ago

One can enter the top 2% of almost any field in one year, especially with the help of nootropics. It doesn't take much to cross the threshold. If not among the top 2% in such a time, then there was usually zero aptitude. Being the best or getting that much better tends to take more effort.

majidazimi 8y ago
Hmmmmm, in case you are a middle eastern immigrant tackling a Ph.D. in the US, it takes around one year (including security check) to take a visa just to get into the US. :D Meanwhile your German rival has arrived 11 months before you and probably had applied for an internship by the time you arrived. I can't stop myself comparing people. :D
- baccheion 8y ago
  A Ph.D. in what? Top 2% of that field is usually accessible within a year.
  - majidazimi 8y ago
    I wasn't opposing you. I just tried to mention, how easy it is to loose to your rivals by just being born in a wrong country.

speby 8y ago

Yes, agreed. Combination of determination/persistence, belief/self-confidence that success is possible and thus will to continue even in doubt, intelligence, and also interest/passion in a particular area. Align those things and generally some flavor of success is possible for an individual. But why though? Because in general, your "competition" (that is, other people trying to do that same thing) will often lack that trifecta in some shape or form. I do agree with others mentioning comparisons about the top 0.01% and top 1% and top 1% versus top 2% and all that. At a certain point of achievement, virtually everyone at that level possesses that trifecta to some degree or another and then, in those cases, often luck and a little happenstance play a big part in which opportunities emerge and create significant value and success for only a small few individuals.