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I realize you say this somewhat in jest, but I want to respond to this because the first sentence of of William Gibson's _Neuromancer_ is paradoxically both tim

I realize you say this somewhat in jest, but I want to respond to this because the first sentence of of William Gibson's _Neuromancer_ is paradoxically both timeless and time bound. > The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. That first sentence characterizes the novel's diegetic (in-narrative) setting by giving the sky a property of an alternate medium (television). Unlike gentler rhetorical assertions such as simile, the declaration that the sky possessed a property of television suggests that the setting--like the intra-diegetic setting of the (Morrocan) beach in which an unnamed adversarial AI imprisons Case--is also a media construct in which the reader is imprisoned. In other words, the media topology structuring the novel's outermost narrative is a recursive formation of one medium inside another medium and this structure is timeless. It's merely recursion. However, fully understanding the literary (as opposed to narrative) significance of such a structuration depends upon knowing what television was and why any of its channels might be "dead" as opposed to "live". A useful point of comparison can be found in William Shakespeare's _As You Like It_ (II.VII.139-143) All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages. [. . .] The significance is timeless, drawing power from the assertion that life is in fact lived on a stage. On the other hand, the description is also time bound (as well as culturally circumscribed) depending as it does on the greatly diminished (since Elizabethan England) medium of live performance. EDIT: Fix predicate in first sentence. Formatting. Change "at" to "a" in penultimate sentence.

taeric 8y ago
I think the point is that my children will likely never know what a television tuned to a dead channel looks like. I've almost forgotten, myself. I say that as someone that finds that line rather nice.
- SuperPaintMan 8y ago
  You reminded me of a post JWZ made a while back with a TV in his bar. It's neat how these things can be embedded into our collective experince. (Copy and paste the link, referrer shenanigans.) https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/01/snow-crash-simulated/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/01/snow-crash-simulated/
  - taeric 8y ago
    I didn't realize newer televisions simulated the static. That is rather amusing, in many ways. Also, thanks for mentioning the copy/paste referrer nonsense. Didn't realize they blocked referred links from here and was curious what the reference was for a time. :)
- notheruser 8y ago
  A television tuned to a dead channel looks like the HBO logo... A quick google search said it was still in use as of 2015.
  - taeric 8y ago
    What? I was assuming it meant a static "white noise" image. And... yeah, I remember them happening. But in modern transmission systems, that is a complete fabrication. There is nothing about getting white noise to transmit to look like that, and it in fact takes more effort to create such a screen. Last television I hooked up using a digital antenna would simply not show anything if the signal didn't exist. If you had poor signal, you'd get more compression artifacts. Nothing there should translate to the white noise image. Right?
    - staticman2 8y ago
      Type in HBO Static Intro and you'll see what I mean. Example on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC_uTMkmH08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC_uTMkmH08
      - taeric 8y ago
        OK, yeah. I know what static is. It isn't like HBO invented that. So, back to the original point. I suspect that it is a short matter of time before nobody really knows what that is anymore. My kids have certainly never seen it. And it is no longer what a television on a "dead" channel shows.
        notheruser 8y ago
        My point was only that if your kids watch HBO they do know what the image in Neuromancer looks like, even if they don't realize what the HBO logo was based on.
        taeric 8y ago
        But that fails. The line is that it looks like a television tuned to a dead channel. Not that it looks like a television during the HBO logo. Could they research it and find the answer? Yes. But that is different from just knowing it. This makes it unlike the stage imagery, which is still accurate.
- InternetOfStuff 8y ago
  > I say that as someone that finds that line rather nice. It is a very nice line. However, it's dated to the point of losing its meaning. Like rotary phones :-)
InternetOfStuff 8y ago
> That first sentence characterizes the novel's diegetic (in-narrative) setting by giving the sky a property of an alternate medium (television). Unlike gentler rhetorical assertions such as simile, the declaration that the sky possessed a property of television suggests that the setting--like the intra-diegetic setting of the (Morrocan) beach in which an unnamed adversarial AI imprisons Case--is also a media construct in which the reader is imprisoned. That's a very interesting take. I never took it to have such a deep meaning, I took it rather at face value (and its face-value-interptretation if you will): that is was visual white noise (vaguely like driving into the snow at night, perhaps?). I took the metaphorical meaning to be that the sky was indistinct, somehow pointless (like watching no channel), conjuring up bleakness and futility. In other words, I took it to be a device to transport ambience, not structural meaning. > In other words, the media topology structuring the novel's outermost narrative is a recursive formation of one medium inside another medium and this structure is timeless. It's merely recursion. Interesting. I had meant to re-read it anyway. I shall pay attention to your perspective, see how it shifts my perspective of the rest of the book. > However, fully understanding the literary (as opposed to narrative) significance of such a structuration depends upon knowing what television was and why any of its channels might be "dead" as opposed to "live". To my kids, a "dead channel" would look uniformly blue. Or like a 404 page perhaps, these day :-D > The significance is timeless, drawing power from the assertion that life is in fact lived on a stage. I feel you might be you're over-thinking it there, in the sense that the actors in a TV show wouldn't be seeing static. Only viewers would. Thanks for sharing your perspective, I found it really interesting.

taeric 8y ago

I think the point is that my children will likely never know what a television tuned to a dead channel looks like. I've almost forgotten, myself. I say that as someone that finds that line rather nice.

SuperPaintMan 8y ago
You reminded me of a post JWZ made a while back with a TV in his bar. It's neat how these things can be embedded into our collective experince. (Copy and paste the link, referrer shenanigans.) https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/01/snow-crash-simulated/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/01/snow-crash-simulated/
- taeric 8y ago
  I didn't realize newer televisions simulated the static. That is rather amusing, in many ways. Also, thanks for mentioning the copy/paste referrer nonsense. Didn't realize they blocked referred links from here and was curious what the reference was for a time. :)
notheruser 8y ago
A television tuned to a dead channel looks like the HBO logo... A quick google search said it was still in use as of 2015.
- taeric 8y ago
  What? I was assuming it meant a static "white noise" image. And... yeah, I remember them happening. But in modern transmission systems, that is a complete fabrication. There is nothing about getting white noise to transmit to look like that, and it in fact takes more effort to create such a screen. Last television I hooked up using a digital antenna would simply not show anything if the signal didn't exist. If you had poor signal, you'd get more compression artifacts. Nothing there should translate to the white noise image. Right?
  - staticman2 8y ago
    Type in HBO Static Intro and you'll see what I mean. Example on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC_uTMkmH08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC_uTMkmH08
    - taeric 8y ago
      OK, yeah. I know what static is. It isn't like HBO invented that. So, back to the original point. I suspect that it is a short matter of time before nobody really knows what that is anymore. My kids have certainly never seen it. And it is no longer what a television on a "dead" channel shows.
      - notheruser 8y ago
        My point was only that if your kids watch HBO they do know what the image in Neuromancer looks like, even if they don't realize what the HBO logo was based on.
        taeric 8y ago
        But that fails. The line is that it looks like a television tuned to a dead channel. Not that it looks like a television during the HBO logo. Could they research it and find the answer? Yes. But that is different from just knowing it. This makes it unlike the stage imagery, which is still accurate.
InternetOfStuff 8y ago
> I say that as someone that finds that line rather nice. It is a very nice line. However, it's dated to the point of losing its meaning. Like rotary phones :-)

InternetOfStuff 8y ago

> That first sentence characterizes the novel's diegetic (in-narrative) setting by giving the sky a property of an alternate medium (television). Unlike gentler rhetorical assertions such as simile, the declaration that the sky possessed a property of television suggests that the setting--like the intra-diegetic setting of the (Morrocan) beach in which an unnamed adversarial AI imprisons Case--is also a media construct in which the reader is imprisoned. That's a very interesting take. I never took it to have such a deep meaning, I took it rather at face value (and its face-value-interptretation if you will): that is was visual white noise (vaguely like driving into the snow at night, perhaps?). I took the metaphorical meaning to be that the sky was indistinct, somehow pointless (like watching no channel), conjuring up bleakness and futility. In other words, I took it to be a device to transport ambience, not structural meaning. > In other words, the media topology structuring the novel's outermost narrative is a recursive formation of one medium inside another medium and this structure is timeless. It's merely recursion. Interesting. I had meant to re-read it anyway. I shall pay attention to your perspective, see how it shifts my perspective of the rest of the book. > However, fully understanding the literary (as opposed to narrative) significance of such a structuration depends upon knowing what television was and why any of its channels might be "dead" as opposed to "live". To my kids, a "dead channel" would look uniformly blue. Or like a 404 page perhaps, these day :-D > The significance is timeless, drawing power from the assertion that life is in fact lived on a stage. I feel you might be you're over-thinking it there, in the sense that the actors in a TV show wouldn't be seeing static. Only viewers would. Thanks for sharing your perspective, I found it really interesting.