7 ms·

> He can afford the fines and does not care That's the reason that a) fines should be a percentage of your net worth and b) escalating. I'm pretty sure if the

by sgift 8y ago

> He can afford the fines and does not care That's the reason that a) fines should be a percentage of your net worth and b) escalating. I'm pretty sure if the first 50 million go down the gutter he'll start to notice.

gist 8y ago
> a) fines should be a percentage of your net worth Not an easy process to determine net worth of anyone let alone someone like Vinod. Most likely he does not even know his net worth. For one, things that you own can vary greatly in value. Now multiply that by hundreds or even thousands of things that are owned by a wealthy person (I don't mean the furniture in the house either). And it simply does and should not work that way. Because what that means is that someone who is poor and has nothing does not get dinged much because they are poor and have nothing (hence they have 'nothing to lose'). Sure you could adjust the penalties but just the same simply not the way it works. Even Elon Musk, so big deal $20m fine for someone worth billions (non liquid of course). So what is the correct 'fine'? And what if he was in bankruptcy? Then what is the correct fine?
- Eric_WVGG 8y ago
  All true, but lowballing would be effective enough.
- tw04 8y ago
  That all presumes there's no way around the fine. If he had no warning, sure all those things matter. For something that is extremely easy to comply with, and that he's intentionally not complying with: too bad? This isn't a one-time whupps. It's no different than a DUI - the first one sort of sucks, but not in a life-changing way. The 3rd one you're into some serious, serious shit. He should be at this point.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Simply adopt the Finnish model - everyone's tax return is public, and fines are based on income in your last return. I think Sweden operates similarly. $100,000 speeding fine anyone? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm and that was in 2002!
  - charlesdm 8y ago
    Ridiculously flawed system in itself, as income can easily be faked. In this case, he's a well paid executive that receives most of his income as income. However, the genuine wealthy will receive most of their income as capital gains and dividends, and will hold most assets through companies. Income wise, they are often paupers in comparison to their (true) net worth.
    - everdev 8y ago
      An entrepreneur might make a few million one year selling a company, then almost nothing for a few years after if they take a break. Maybe average the last ten years of income to get a better picture? Either way, it's not perfect. Hundred dollar speeding tickets are brutal for low income families.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      There are usually consequences like imprisonment, or additional higher fines, for lying to the tax authorities. So faking your income on a tax return may be considered high risk. It's perfectly possible to consider dividends income as the UK mostly does, and maybe include capital gains as well to arrive at an overall figure for the year after allowances and indexation. No system is perfect, but seems far less flawed than prescribed fines that sees a millionaire barely notice a £100 parking fine, but someone on minimum wage almost getting wiped out by the same. To me it;s crazy not to reference income, ability to pay or worth when assessing penalty.
  - gist 8y ago
    > everyone's tax return is public, and fines are based on income in your last return Not unusual for business people or anyone to have varied income from year to year but also that does not relate to actual assets or (the original point 'net worth' which is ironically a better measure of what you can pay (assumes liquid of course..)) Also what about someone with an inheritance or trust money? Once again with the speeding fine it seems oppressive for the same 'crime' to charge someone $100k because they have income or assets and have that money to pay. Also from what I read the Finnish system is legacy and the way it has always been. There is a big difference in that as people grew up with it vs. in the US where it would be something newly done. Forget even the revolt that would happen. It would also (once again here, because not legacy) lead to inflation as people would all the sudden quite possibly think they are underpaid next to someone else. Now in the US many pay checks are public but people aren't typically keyed into checking the data source because it's a bit obscure and not a regular stop (key point by the way 'out of sight'). So for example if you work in NYC and you find out a trash man makes $90k per year and you make $60k you are going to feel shortchanged possibly. Once again that info is public (and the amount with overtime can be that btw) but not usually something people are accustomed to thinking about.
- 394549 8y ago
  > Not an easy process to determine net worth of anyone let alone someone like Vinod. Most likely he does not even know his net worth. Maybe it's not easy, but he definitely has the ability to figure out how much he's worth, even if it means he has to pay a team of accountants. I think such a system would be workable if it mandated the offender provide a good-faith calculation of their net worth. They'd also be required to show their work, and be subject to harsh penalties if they were found to have deliberately cheated. This is basically how the tax system already works for income.
  - charlesdm 8y ago
    This gets complex quickly. What if the property is owned by a company, which in turn is owned by a foreign foundation? Does he actually own the property? Should he be personally liable for that fine because he lives in the property? Should the fine be assessed on the property value? Plenty of questions unanswered, that likely require legislation at various levels in government. I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but this requires more work than some people are assuming. Khosla will be dead before any proper legislation without viable loopholes gets enacted.
- jonny_eh 8y ago
  Fine, make it a percentage of the assessed value of his property.
throwaway5752 8y ago
You know if you really neglect your property and ignore fines long enough, a humble HOA can foreclose upon your house. Given that this is clearly a pattern of illegal behavior not remedied by civil lawsuits, the state should use eminent domain and seize his property as necessary create the mandatory access and to prevent further illegal activity blocking access to public lands.
- fermienrico 8y ago
  I have a problem with HOA's. They're almost always run by the worst kind of people that you don't want to be around. They're almost always evil to the core and extend their powers beyond reason. I will never buy a house with a HOA. There are countless stories on how they do more harm than good. I have so much disdain for them, I cannot express. Fuck HOAs.
- everdev 8y ago
  Why can't it be remedied by civil lawsuits? If this guy is restricting my access to a public beach I should be able to sue him, no?
  - throwaway5752 8y ago
    ... this submission is about a civil lawsuit that has been appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. What you described has already happened, and he has lost and appealed up to the highest level possible under US law.
aerophilic 8y ago
While I don’t know I agree, thought I would mention Finland does this: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland... It would be interesting to see how effective it might be...
- jonny_eh 8y ago
  Even if it doesn't work, at least it would do a lot of good to take money away from such a jerk, and give it to the people.

by sgift 8y ago

gist 8y ago

> a) fines should be a percentage of your net worth Not an easy process to determine net worth of anyone let alone someone like Vinod. Most likely he does not even know his net worth. For one, things that you own can vary greatly in value. Now multiply that by hundreds or even thousands of things that are owned by a wealthy person (I don't mean the furniture in the house either). And it simply does and should not work that way. Because what that means is that someone who is poor and has nothing does not get dinged much because they are poor and have nothing (hence they have 'nothing to lose'). Sure you could adjust the penalties but just the same simply not the way it works. Even Elon Musk, so big deal $20m fine for someone worth billions (non liquid of course). So what is the correct 'fine'? And what if he was in bankruptcy? Then what is the correct fine?

Eric_WVGG 8y ago
All true, but lowballing would be effective enough.
tw04 8y ago
That all presumes there's no way around the fine. If he had no warning, sure all those things matter. For something that is extremely easy to comply with, and that he's intentionally not complying with: too bad? This isn't a one-time whupps. It's no different than a DUI - the first one sort of sucks, but not in a life-changing way. The 3rd one you're into some serious, serious shit. He should be at this point.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Simply adopt the Finnish model - everyone's tax return is public, and fines are based on income in your last return. I think Sweden operates similarly. $100,000 speeding fine anyone? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm and that was in 2002!
- charlesdm 8y ago
  Ridiculously flawed system in itself, as income can easily be faked. In this case, he's a well paid executive that receives most of his income as income. However, the genuine wealthy will receive most of their income as capital gains and dividends, and will hold most assets through companies. Income wise, they are often paupers in comparison to their (true) net worth.
  - everdev 8y ago
    An entrepreneur might make a few million one year selling a company, then almost nothing for a few years after if they take a break. Maybe average the last ten years of income to get a better picture? Either way, it's not perfect. Hundred dollar speeding tickets are brutal for low income families.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    There are usually consequences like imprisonment, or additional higher fines, for lying to the tax authorities. So faking your income on a tax return may be considered high risk. It's perfectly possible to consider dividends income as the UK mostly does, and maybe include capital gains as well to arrive at an overall figure for the year after allowances and indexation. No system is perfect, but seems far less flawed than prescribed fines that sees a millionaire barely notice a £100 parking fine, but someone on minimum wage almost getting wiped out by the same. To me it;s crazy not to reference income, ability to pay or worth when assessing penalty.
- gist 8y ago
  > everyone's tax return is public, and fines are based on income in your last return Not unusual for business people or anyone to have varied income from year to year but also that does not relate to actual assets or (the original point 'net worth' which is ironically a better measure of what you can pay (assumes liquid of course..)) Also what about someone with an inheritance or trust money? Once again with the speeding fine it seems oppressive for the same 'crime' to charge someone $100k because they have income or assets and have that money to pay. Also from what I read the Finnish system is legacy and the way it has always been. There is a big difference in that as people grew up with it vs. in the US where it would be something newly done. Forget even the revolt that would happen. It would also (once again here, because not legacy) lead to inflation as people would all the sudden quite possibly think they are underpaid next to someone else. Now in the US many pay checks are public but people aren't typically keyed into checking the data source because it's a bit obscure and not a regular stop (key point by the way 'out of sight'). So for example if you work in NYC and you find out a trash man makes $90k per year and you make $60k you are going to feel shortchanged possibly. Once again that info is public (and the amount with overtime can be that btw) but not usually something people are accustomed to thinking about.
394549 8y ago
> Not an easy process to determine net worth of anyone let alone someone like Vinod. Most likely he does not even know his net worth. Maybe it's not easy, but he definitely has the ability to figure out how much he's worth, even if it means he has to pay a team of accountants. I think such a system would be workable if it mandated the offender provide a good-faith calculation of their net worth. They'd also be required to show their work, and be subject to harsh penalties if they were found to have deliberately cheated. This is basically how the tax system already works for income.
- charlesdm 8y ago
  This gets complex quickly. What if the property is owned by a company, which in turn is owned by a foreign foundation? Does he actually own the property? Should he be personally liable for that fine because he lives in the property? Should the fine be assessed on the property value? Plenty of questions unanswered, that likely require legislation at various levels in government. I'm not saying it's not a good idea, but this requires more work than some people are assuming. Khosla will be dead before any proper legislation without viable loopholes gets enacted.
jonny_eh 8y ago
Fine, make it a percentage of the assessed value of his property.

throwaway5752 8y ago

You know if you really neglect your property and ignore fines long enough, a humble HOA can foreclose upon your house. Given that this is clearly a pattern of illegal behavior not remedied by civil lawsuits, the state should use eminent domain and seize his property as necessary create the mandatory access and to prevent further illegal activity blocking access to public lands.

fermienrico 8y ago
I have a problem with HOA's. They're almost always run by the worst kind of people that you don't want to be around. They're almost always evil to the core and extend their powers beyond reason. I will never buy a house with a HOA. There are countless stories on how they do more harm than good. I have so much disdain for them, I cannot express. Fuck HOAs.
everdev 8y ago
Why can't it be remedied by civil lawsuits? If this guy is restricting my access to a public beach I should be able to sue him, no?
- throwaway5752 8y ago
  ... this submission is about a civil lawsuit that has been appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. What you described has already happened, and he has lost and appealed up to the highest level possible under US law.

aerophilic 8y ago

While I don’t know I agree, thought I would mention Finland does this: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland... It would be interesting to see how effective it might be...

jonny_eh 8y ago
Even if it doesn't work, at least it would do a lot of good to take money away from such a jerk, and give it to the people.