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"If Microsoft can't even release their marquee apps on it, why should anyone else feel confident in developing on the platform?" That's why I avoid any kind of

"If Microsoft can't even release their marquee apps on it, why should anyone else feel confident in developing on the platform?" That's why I avoid any kind of Windows desktop development. They release a new framework every 2-3 years and developers are expected to adopt it. But then they drop support for that framework quickly and release a new incompatible one. In the Windows environment choice is bad. You only have bad choices and the frameworks that are being used for flagship apps like Office are not available to devs. I really envy iOS devs where the path to an app is straightforward and your biggest problem is to use ObjectivC or Swift.

cptskippy 8y ago
Except that's not what Microsoft does at all. The .NET Framework is forward compatible and very rarely breaks compatibility. You can select multiple compilation targets for .NET and have a single piece of code that compiles to multiple frameoworks concurrently. I currently am maintaining a handful of Projects that build Nuget packages compatible with .NET Core, .NET Standard and .NET Framework. If you do have compatibility issues you can easily set preprocessor directives and implement platform specific work arounds just like in C or C++.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  We aren't talking about .NET in general bit about desktop UI frameworks. If you started with ASP.NET MVC years ago you still are on the main platform that's in full development. With desktop development you have several frameworks that are either in support mode or not fully featured.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    GDI, Win32, and XAML are the only ones that come to mind for me, am I missing some? 3 frameworks in 3 decades seems reasonable considering they all still work. The same can't be said for MacOS If you're referring to Silverlight, that was never a serious desktop UI framework. It was initially targeted as a Flash /Java killer but pivoted to cross platform desktop apps when it became clear that it would never be adopted on Mobile and that Apple/Google were actively trying to kill Flash on the desktop. That being said, we got XAML from Silverlight and it's not terribly difficult to covert ti a XAML or even UWP app from a Silverlight codebase.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      You are missing Winforms and several XAML frameworks (WPF, Silverlight, WinRT and UWP). Even if you use one of the XAML frameworks porting any app of decent size is really hard to almost impossible. I think trouble started with .NET. Since then there was a change in direction almost every 2-3 years. Edit: Forgot WinJS...
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Because before the reorganization, .NET used to be part of DevTools, while C++ and related tooling was part of WinDev. So since .NET was introduced there has been an ongoing power struggle between the two camps regarding how the future of Windows development should look like. The whole Longhorn/Vista debacle was more a side effect of those political issues than actual technical problems. Likewise with lack of management support for bringing Singularity and Midori outcomes into mainstream Windows, or trying to replace .NET with WinRT. The reorganization was supposed to help sort out such silos, apparently it wasn't successful at that.
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        I guess the MS org chart is still accurate: http://www.globalnerdy.com/2011/07/03/org-charts-of-the-big-tech-companies-plus-an-enhancement/ http://www.globalnerdy.com/2011/07/03/org-charts-of-the-big-...
      - slededit 8y ago
        Everything lives on top of win32. Even UWP is a wrapper around win32, if you look at the modules list you'll see gdi.dll in the list. In a sense the rest of these frameworks are all just libraries. You can choose the one that makes your life easier but win32 will do the heavy lifting. Because of this its relatively easy for them to add support for new features to the various frameworks. They just wire up the win32 calls as necessary.
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        I don't think that's correct. In Winforms and MFC every control is a Win32 window. As far as i know WPF has only one root window and then does all the drawing by itself on a canvas.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    ASP.Net MVC 5 (ASP.NET Core) was a complete rewrite of MVC/Web API. The MVC work that was done previously would have to be completely rewritten.
- rblatz 8y ago
  Why are you targeting net standard and core in your nuget packages? Targeting standard should be all you need to cover both.
Const-me 8y ago
> They release a new framework every 2-3 years and developers are expected to adopt it. But then they drop support for that framework quickly and release a new incompatible one. Doesn't matter, as a developer you're free to pick whichever you like. You can run VB6 apps on Windows 10. A software I've made on my first job with MFC for NT4.0 still runs on Win10. WPF is awesome, I still pick it now in 2018 when I need compatibility with older Windows.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  WPF hasn’t been seriously upgraded for a long time now. I love WPF, but it is beginning to feel like WinForms.
  - JDWolf 8y ago
    Didn't realize, I really like WPF too, hope that executives aren't trying to push too many efforts towards whatever they think the trends might be, I tried Xamarin for mobile but ended up switching to Android Studio and just targeting there. "Preparrrre for Q#........" (jk on that....for now)
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I think it matters a lot. If I develop an application that's supposed to be in development for many years I want to use a framework that has a forward path to the latest OS features.
  - Const-me 8y ago
    > a framework that has a forward path to the latest OS features. Microsoft usually adds support of OS features into old frameworks. For example, they have added touch support into their 25+ years old MFC. Technically speaking, WPF gets updated regularly with each release of .NET framework. For example, in 4.6.2 they have implemented per-monitor DPI scaling support. As a developer, I like stable APIs, and frameworks which don’t break my code with version upgrades.
    - 8y ago
starik36 8y ago
True, but it's not like frameworks stop working. I still write an occasional app in WinForms and it works great.
- foepys 8y ago
  I personally know of some companies that are still running VB6 programs on Windows 10. We're talking about 1998 tech here. Even the development tools are still working 20 years later on the newest version of Windows.
scarface74 8y ago
That's why I avoid any kind of Windows desktop development. They release a new framework every 2-3 years and developers are expected to adopt it. But then they drop support for that framework quickly and release a new incompatible one. I agree with you. I would never take a job doing Windows desktop development and I am a big fan of .Net and Microsoft’s development tools. But web development is far worse.

cptskippy 8y ago

Except that's not what Microsoft does at all. The .NET Framework is forward compatible and very rarely breaks compatibility. You can select multiple compilation targets for .NET and have a single piece of code that compiles to multiple frameoworks concurrently. I currently am maintaining a handful of Projects that build Nuget packages compatible with .NET Core, .NET Standard and .NET Framework. If you do have compatibility issues you can easily set preprocessor directives and implement platform specific work arounds just like in C or C++.

maxxxxx 8y ago
We aren't talking about .NET in general bit about desktop UI frameworks. If you started with ASP.NET MVC years ago you still are on the main platform that's in full development. With desktop development you have several frameworks that are either in support mode or not fully featured.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  GDI, Win32, and XAML are the only ones that come to mind for me, am I missing some? 3 frameworks in 3 decades seems reasonable considering they all still work. The same can't be said for MacOS If you're referring to Silverlight, that was never a serious desktop UI framework. It was initially targeted as a Flash /Java killer but pivoted to cross platform desktop apps when it became clear that it would never be adopted on Mobile and that Apple/Google were actively trying to kill Flash on the desktop. That being said, we got XAML from Silverlight and it's not terribly difficult to covert ti a XAML or even UWP app from a Silverlight codebase.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    You are missing Winforms and several XAML frameworks (WPF, Silverlight, WinRT and UWP). Even if you use one of the XAML frameworks porting any app of decent size is really hard to almost impossible. I think trouble started with .NET. Since then there was a change in direction almost every 2-3 years. Edit: Forgot WinJS...
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Because before the reorganization, .NET used to be part of DevTools, while C++ and related tooling was part of WinDev. So since .NET was introduced there has been an ongoing power struggle between the two camps regarding how the future of Windows development should look like. The whole Longhorn/Vista debacle was more a side effect of those political issues than actual technical problems. Likewise with lack of management support for bringing Singularity and Midori outcomes into mainstream Windows, or trying to replace .NET with WinRT. The reorganization was supposed to help sort out such silos, apparently it wasn't successful at that.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        I guess the MS org chart is still accurate: http://www.globalnerdy.com/2011/07/03/org-charts-of-the-big-tech-companies-plus-an-enhancement/ http://www.globalnerdy.com/2011/07/03/org-charts-of-the-big-...
    - slededit 8y ago
      Everything lives on top of win32. Even UWP is a wrapper around win32, if you look at the modules list you'll see gdi.dll in the list. In a sense the rest of these frameworks are all just libraries. You can choose the one that makes your life easier but win32 will do the heavy lifting. Because of this its relatively easy for them to add support for new features to the various frameworks. They just wire up the win32 calls as necessary.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        I don't think that's correct. In Winforms and MFC every control is a Win32 window. As far as i know WPF has only one root window and then does all the drawing by itself on a canvas.
- scarface74 8y ago
  ASP.Net MVC 5 (ASP.NET Core) was a complete rewrite of MVC/Web API. The MVC work that was done previously would have to be completely rewritten.
rblatz 8y ago
Why are you targeting net standard and core in your nuget packages? Targeting standard should be all you need to cover both.

Const-me 8y ago

> They release a new framework every 2-3 years and developers are expected to adopt it. But then they drop support for that framework quickly and release a new incompatible one. Doesn't matter, as a developer you're free to pick whichever you like. You can run VB6 apps on Windows 10. A software I've made on my first job with MFC for NT4.0 still runs on Win10. WPF is awesome, I still pick it now in 2018 when I need compatibility with older Windows.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
WPF hasn’t been seriously upgraded for a long time now. I love WPF, but it is beginning to feel like WinForms.
- JDWolf 8y ago
  Didn't realize, I really like WPF too, hope that executives aren't trying to push too many efforts towards whatever they think the trends might be, I tried Xamarin for mobile but ended up switching to Android Studio and just targeting there. "Preparrrre for Q#........" (jk on that....for now)
maxxxxx 8y ago
I think it matters a lot. If I develop an application that's supposed to be in development for many years I want to use a framework that has a forward path to the latest OS features.
- Const-me 8y ago
  > a framework that has a forward path to the latest OS features. Microsoft usually adds support of OS features into old frameworks. For example, they have added touch support into their 25+ years old MFC. Technically speaking, WPF gets updated regularly with each release of .NET framework. For example, in 4.6.2 they have implemented per-monitor DPI scaling support. As a developer, I like stable APIs, and frameworks which don’t break my code with version upgrades.
  - 8y ago

starik36 8y ago

True, but it's not like frameworks stop working. I still write an occasional app in WinForms and it works great.

foepys 8y ago
I personally know of some companies that are still running VB6 programs on Windows 10. We're talking about 1998 tech here. Even the development tools are still working 20 years later on the newest version of Windows.

scarface74 8y ago

That's why I avoid any kind of Windows desktop development. They release a new framework every 2-3 years and developers are expected to adopt it. But then they drop support for that framework quickly and release a new incompatible one. I agree with you. I would never take a job doing Windows desktop development and I am a big fan of .Net and Microsoft’s development tools. But web development is far worse.