5 ms·

I just can't address this further. I'm not convinced you have the slightest clue what bittorrent is (how on earth does not having 5 9s matter for a consumer con

by tjoff 8y ago

I just can't address this further. I'm not convinced you have the slightest clue what bittorrent is (how on earth does not having 5 9s matter for a consumer connection? If a node drops noone will notice). I'm not saying there won't be problems. A major problem is the asymmetric nature of many consumer connections. Not only is the upload often a fraction of the download (that is the easy part), but the download speed can be greatly sacrificed if upload is utilized. Add to that issues that home users might want to use the connection for other stuff. The nightmare and confusion surrounding "I can't game because someone is watching torrent-tube" will be real and add to that issues with ISPs that have a fixed quota or people on mobile (or tethering a mobile connection to laptop). Netflix et al would not like to deal with that kind of FUD spreading around. And all this is before considering local ISP bottlenecks as it isn't what the network was designed for. A vastly superior option is to put a proxy on the ISP network itself (but yes, hard to do for small players). Those alone are probably a magnitude worse than the technical issues you speak of. Even spotify got much flak for it, and no, I don't think anyone on earth think the bandwidth requirements of audio and HD video are similar.

laumars 8y ago
I actually did cover that point (albeit at a much higher level) and of course I know what bittorrent is. Just because I don't agree with you it doesn't mean I don't understand the problems. Quite the opposite, I happen to work in the video delivery industry so it's my job to understand these problems. Like I said, it's ever so easy being an armchair critic but try deploying this stuff at scale with SLAs covering 5 "9s" and paying customers then tell me you've got all the kinks in bittorrent solved ;)
- tjoff 8y ago
  Arguably, no, you contrive issues that don't make any sense. Such as presenting the issue that the end of the file might be downloaded first. Or that you can't have different quality versions and dynamically switch. The end will only be downloaded if the client requests it, which won't be unless the user is watching the credits...
  - laumars 8y ago
    The client matters though. Even just getting that client onto your end users systems is going to be problematic. And even those bullet point aside I raised other issues you're yet to reconcile. Plus there are other problems I'd not considered (eg RMTP is often sent over UDP and bittorrent is not only TCP but has additional CRC checks that you don't really want with video streaming). But as you're clearly an expert in video delivery you should build a torrent based video delivery platform. You could make a killing (assun. Or alternatively you might discover these opinions you were dismissing might have had a point and actually video delivery is a lot harder than you first assumed.
    - ubercow13 8y ago
      Like Popcorn Time?
      - laumars 8y ago
        I know it can be done via bittorrent. Anything can be hacked to do anything if you're motivated enough. However the question asked was whether it's good enough for paying customers in a commercial environment (ie Netflix). That's a very different set of expectations.
        krageon 8y ago
        Popcorn time when I looked at it has consistently given me performance at least as good as Netflix (which tends to downgrade quality for bad reasons - I have very fast fiber and my ISP has good peering - and has a client that can't seem to stop desyncing audio). The only reason not to use it is arguable legality and the fact that content creators deserve money. It's definitely not quality of service.
        laumars 8y ago
        If you're on a really fast internet connection where your ISP doesn't throttle P2P (many do in the UK) then I wouldn't be surprised that you'd get good results from Popcorn Time. The issue is whether that is consistently true for people on slower internet connections, connections with QoS or other traffic shaping methods against P2P, and those who stream on lower end hardware (old laptops / phones) or embedded devices (Amazon Firestick or smart TVs). This is where RMTP streams really shine through - they offer the performance (at the client level) and flexibility (quick swapping between bitrates within 15 seconds of chunked video) to maximize the video quality per client. As for why Netflix doesn't look to great on your connection, I can only speculate there but the reasons might be more down to congestion on your local Netflix cache server or your ISP itself than RMTP streams being inferior to BitTorrent.

by tjoff 8y ago

laumars 8y ago

I actually did cover that point (albeit at a much higher level) and of course I know what bittorrent is. Just because I don't agree with you it doesn't mean I don't understand the problems. Quite the opposite, I happen to work in the video delivery industry so it's my job to understand these problems. Like I said, it's ever so easy being an armchair critic but try deploying this stuff at scale with SLAs covering 5 "9s" and paying customers then tell me you've got all the kinks in bittorrent solved ;)

tjoff 8y ago
Arguably, no, you contrive issues that don't make any sense. Such as presenting the issue that the end of the file might be downloaded first. Or that you can't have different quality versions and dynamically switch. The end will only be downloaded if the client requests it, which won't be unless the user is watching the credits...
- laumars 8y ago
  The client matters though. Even just getting that client onto your end users systems is going to be problematic. And even those bullet point aside I raised other issues you're yet to reconcile. Plus there are other problems I'd not considered (eg RMTP is often sent over UDP and bittorrent is not only TCP but has additional CRC checks that you don't really want with video streaming). But as you're clearly an expert in video delivery you should build a torrent based video delivery platform. You could make a killing (assun. Or alternatively you might discover these opinions you were dismissing might have had a point and actually video delivery is a lot harder than you first assumed.
  - ubercow13 8y ago
    Like Popcorn Time?
    - laumars 8y ago
      I know it can be done via bittorrent. Anything can be hacked to do anything if you're motivated enough. However the question asked was whether it's good enough for paying customers in a commercial environment (ie Netflix). That's a very different set of expectations.
      - krageon 8y ago
        Popcorn time when I looked at it has consistently given me performance at least as good as Netflix (which tends to downgrade quality for bad reasons - I have very fast fiber and my ISP has good peering - and has a client that can't seem to stop desyncing audio). The only reason not to use it is arguable legality and the fact that content creators deserve money. It's definitely not quality of service.
        laumars 8y ago
        If you're on a really fast internet connection where your ISP doesn't throttle P2P (many do in the UK) then I wouldn't be surprised that you'd get good results from Popcorn Time. The issue is whether that is consistently true for people on slower internet connections, connections with QoS or other traffic shaping methods against P2P, and those who stream on lower end hardware (old laptops / phones) or embedded devices (Amazon Firestick or smart TVs). This is where RMTP streams really shine through - they offer the performance (at the client level) and flexibility (quick swapping between bitrates within 15 seconds of chunked video) to maximize the video quality per client. As for why Netflix doesn't look to great on your connection, I can only speculate there but the reasons might be more down to congestion on your local Netflix cache server or your ISP itself than RMTP streams being inferior to BitTorrent.