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Marriage Costs in China Are Out of Control

129 points by tango24 8y ago

hkai 8y ago
I am planning to hopefully marry my girlfriend in the next couple of years and her parents are already asking for "at least a small amount like 10,000 USD", because "I'm white anyway", meaning I must be rich. Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them, and their lazy and useless way of life, they're not getting a penny from me. Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it.
- kown223 8y ago
  What happens if you don't pay? you need some written approval or what?
  - hkai 8y ago
    What happens for her is strong condemnation and probably severing of ties with the family.
    - Simon_says 8y ago
      win-win?
  - matz1 8y ago
    If her family is important for her, she probably break up with him.
- echevil 8y ago
  Nah they’ll ask for way more than 10k USD if they think you’re rich :) it’s common that they’ll ask you to buy a house/apartment first
- scandox 8y ago
  You’re going to enter into a relationship with the people you’re talking about (on a public forum) for the rest of your life.
  - logicchains 8y ago
    Realistically, barring any massive progress in life-extension technology it's unlikely the poster will have to deal with his in-laws for the rest of his life (unless they're particularly murderous). Even less likely if he and his wife migrate away from China.
    - varjag 8y ago
      Fine, just for (better) half of their life then.
  - falsedichotomy 8y ago
    western/white men who marry asian women oftentimes look down on the wife's culture or race. 'white savior complex'.
- amrx431 8y ago
  Same shit is happening in India. If you dont have a H1B and never worked in US, good luck finding a girl. I am 27 right now and that too a low caste. I am seriously contemplating giving up hopes of marriage and remaining single. Will be tough as I dont have a family. All my family members were killed when I was young. I have stopped bothering and now just bury myself in work and reading to avoid the darkness.
  - logicchains 8y ago
    Don't give up hope. If India is anything like China, independent, educated young people are much more likely to make marriage decisions for love rather than money. The key thing to realise is that, if someone will only marry you for your financial status rather than love they'll probably be a terrible spouse, and similarly if they'd let their parents make their marriage decision for them they're also probably not the kind of person you want to marry. If they care about your caste, then they're a horrible racist and you certainly wouldn't want to marry them. If you go to a big city and hang out at the kind of places educated, independent young people go to, you might be surprised at how open-minded the people you meet are. Particularly art-related places; people who pursue an artistic career have potentially already demonstrated a preference for following one's heart over financial concerns.
    - lifeisstillgood 8y ago
      Possibly some of the best life advice in three paragraphs I have seen
    - user5994461 8y ago
      As my girlfriend would say. It comes as a package, the person has her feelings, body, character, social status, and family background, etc... It takes more than "love" to bond and have a lasting relationship. It's good advice to look for people who are somewhat similar.
  - namanyayg 8y ago
    What city do you live in? I'm from Delhi and the situation is very different here for sure. And in India, the girl's family usually pays dowry (usually much more than $10k + gold jewelry) to the guy's family, so that's something literally opposite to China culture? As another commenter mentioned, the situation in metro is developed enough where you'll find a partner through love rather than status.
- 131sdfdasf 8y ago
  How does $10k mean they think you are rich? That's chump change. They are being generous.
  - namanyayg 8y ago
    Seems like this is a downvoted opinion, but I concur. Strange really, how much months/years of expenses would $10k get their family? Not much more than a few months I assume?
    - Macuyiko 8y ago
      Depends. In rural China this is still a lot of money.
      - throw930336 8y ago
        Not really. If they were really, really frugal, the most I could see that lasting is 2 years.
        Macuyiko 8y ago
        See another comment in this thread: "$10,000 is typical for bride-price in China and only a bit higher than average annual Chinese income. The Chinese do save more than 30% of their income so that is about three years of savings for average earners in China". That seems more in line with my experience (and the $10,000 price is also something I've heard often). I could easily see my grandparents in law (who live in rural China) be able to live of $10k for three years, given that nothing exceptional happens.
        throw930336 8y ago
        I see what you're saying. I guess it depends on how people interpret "a lot." To me it would have to be at least 5x the average.
        dEnigma 8y ago
- chinamarriage 8y ago
  $10,000 is typical for bride-price in China and only a bit higher than average annual Chinese income. The Chinese do save more than 30% of their income so that is about three years of savings for average earners in China, which is quite high for them admittedly. If you work in a Western country and have a decent job (otherwise why should their daughter marry you anyway?) you can save $10,000 in less than two years. Many Chinese bachelors can do better than that, either they can command or commit more resources. That is along what they think.
  - user5994461 8y ago
    If you work in a Western country (Europe) and have a decent job, there is no way that you save that much unless living with flatmates or parents for years. Yearly income is around 10k, 20k or 30k before taxes, depending which part of Europe it is. It all goes to taxes, then rent, then food and car.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      You can live in many places of Europe without a car. Saving 420€/month while earning 30k is definitively possible if your only expenses are rent, utilities, food and public transport.
    - khuey 8y ago
      Living with flatmates or parents for years is exactly what they do in China.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- liftbigweights 8y ago
  > Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them, and their lazy and useless way of life, they're not getting a penny from me. Then why are you planning to marry "into the family" if you have such a low opinion of them? > Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it. If $10K is going to ruin you financially, you shouldn't be marrying anyone. Not that I agree with the dowry custom, but $10K isn't that much money. Just because you are lonely or feel like the girl you have is the only one you could get isn't reason to get married. Despite what you think now, parents/siblings/family matter. Money matters. And the longer you are married, the more important family and money becomes. Don't get married out of naivety or desperation.
  - cm2012 8y ago
    You can marry someone and not marry their family. My korean wife and I both know her family is an abusive horror show and have subsequently cut them off.
    - logicchains 8y ago
      I know a mainland Chinese person who completely cut off his own parents after they kept treating his wife poorly, a couple of decades ago when the country was much less developed. Culture is no excuse; a just person (for lack of a better word) is not going to tolerate their parents mistreating their partner, regardless of where they're born. People who accept terrible behaviour from family just because they're family only encourage them to continue such bad behaviour; terrible parents won't stop being terrible parents if they don't face any consequences. The Chinese language even has a rude word for someone who slavishly obeys their parents, "走狗", literally meaning "running dog".
- coldtea 8y ago
  >and their lazy and useless way of life Is that against some particular to them "lazy and useless way of life" they follow, or because their way of life doesn't match some american ideal (e.g. personal ambition and protestant-work-ethic), and thus it's "lazy and useless" because its different?
- rqs 8y ago
  The thing is, in China, you are not just married with the person you in love with, you also married to the family of that person. (And at the same time, that person is married to your family as well) I remember when my colleagues was talking about whether or not they're letting their wife to manage their money. One person brought up "I've paid ￥XXXXXX for the 彩礼[0], so I'm not allowing her to limit how I spend my salary". The idea was, as the man of the house, you provides, so you have some "power" over other family members. And that 10,000 USD you may need to pay, is the way of showing that you can provide. Of course, all of that above is the "modern" explanation. In the ancient time, where the gender inequality is much severe, the Bride Price is mainly served as compensation to the female's family. Because after been married, the female will technically "leave" their own family and become a part of the male's family. That's why "Getting Married" is called "出嫁" at the female side, where "出" means leave (her own family). One more thing, except for 彩礼[0], we also have 嫁妆[1] which is something that female's family will provide (technically to their own girl, though). If you want to dig deeper, checkout one[2] Wiki page (If you can read, the Chinese version is better). If you're living in China, better ask your local Chinese friends, I bet their information is more accurate and detailed than the Wiki page. Hope you have a happy marriage. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price#China [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry#China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marriage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marriage
- iforgotpassword 8y ago
  > Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them Some unsolicited advice, because internet: I really hope you understand what you're getting yourself into. I have no idea how familiar you are with Chinese culture, but be aware that family, especially parents, are very important in China. I'm sure you heard the "in China, you're not marrying a person, but a family" thing before. It really is deeply ingrained in Chinese culture, so depending on at which age and for how long she has lived in the West, despite her parents treating her bad, she might still feel a great urge to abide by her parents and pull an emergency bailout. Even if she decides to cut ties with her family, which might very well happen if you don't pay a dime and make her parents lose face, keep in mind that now you need to be extra sure she is well integrated locally (friends, activities, social life). Again this depends a lot on how westernized she is, if not that much, having Chinese friends is crucial if you're living in an entirely different culture. Just don't let her get all reclusive and spend all time on Chinese social media. This might sound like a joke but I've seen it happen. The culture barrier is real. I've seen Germans struggling to adapt to the American way of living and vice versa, and they're ridiculously close compared to China and any Western country. Also I hope the way her parents treat her doesn't trigger too much of a protective instinct. It's noble you want to help her but be really sure you know the person and want to stay with her. Breaking up now and sending her back to her parents might make her life miserable, or maybe not and she'll find someone back in China, but marrying her, fucking up her relationship with her parents and then realizing it doesn't work after a year or two will quite likely make her life miserable. (But depending on how ugly it has gotten, you might actually like that at that point). Again this is general precautionary advice, mostly assuming worst case conditions.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  How does your fiance, the person you presumably love and care about most in the world, feel about you doing that to her parents? I wonder how it affects her too; is it some kind of cultural statement that your fiance isn't worth anything? Hope not! It could be a pretty big insult to her parents that would affect her relationship with them (and possibly with the rest of her family as well) for the rest of her parents' lives, and depending on how she feels about it and how the rest of her family feels about it, could affect her for the rest of her life as well. If she's fine with it, sure, great plan. If it's going to make her miserable, perhaps not so great.
quotemstr 8y ago
Markets always appear next to scarcity, and laws against market operations always drive transactions underground, because supply and demand must be made to meet somehow. Without expressing approval per se of what's happening in China, I do have to express a total lack of surprise that people react to scarcity in one area in the same way they react to scarcity in every other. Extreme gender imbalances are societally destabilizing, and the Chinese government, which is obsessed with social stability, should have reacted much faster once it noticed the gender gap in newborns. Now, it's too late, and a generation will be unhappy.
- kown223 8y ago
  assuming those in control are there for meritocracy and are competent and that's why are there, they would have reacted, but no, are there due to their parens/people they know, and bribes.
- watwut 8y ago
  Are gender imbalances destabilising historically? It woild be interesting to see the history. After wars there was lack of men in some areas. Excess of men was during gold rush, in Australia and is in silicon valley. (I am not sure how much it proves or disproved theory.)
  - geoffmunn 8y ago
    As a positive twist, women got the vote in New Zealand partly because of fears that a surplus of rowdy men 'on the frontier' would cause problems. Giving women the vote would give families more leverage in Parliament.
    - jacobush 8y ago
      Fears by who(m)? There must be some interesting partisan politics you are barely hinting at.
      - geoffmunn 8y ago
beerlord 8y ago
I think the title is misleading: its not really marriage costs, its a payment to the bride/parents to account for the gender disparity in China caused by sex-selective abortions. These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls - and actually sex-selectively abort boys. Unfortunately we are seeing all this in the West, where Asian migrants to countries like Australia are still selectively aborting girls. The difference is that other ethnicities are not, so those Asian boys can then grow up to marry girls from other communities, and a female shortage is pushed onto the whole of society. Its basically a tragedy of the commons.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Who cares what first generation immigrants do? Their children won’t do it and they’ll be a hell of a lot more acculturated than their parents ever will be. They won’t be doing sec selective abortion any more than those who are unhyphenated Australians.
  - beerlord 8y ago
    Son-preference persists among second-generation migrants: https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2018/06/19/jech-2018-210622 https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2018/06/19/jech-2018-2106... And migration is ongoing - so the effects will continually be felt. Its not as if the intake is a once-off. I think its grounds enough to only allow female immigrants from these problem countries, in order to balance out the population.
- rectang 8y ago
  > These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls Wow, a market correction to counteract societal undervaluation of females. If it could happen that would be profoundly constructive, but attitudes about gender are durable. It's not hard to imagine that instead of letting the price rise to incentivize an increase in supply, we could see see price fixing and rationing instead: the exertion of greater control over scarce resources and backwards progress in women's rights.
plouffy 8y ago
Interesting article. I'm a little surprised on how abruptly the article just seems to end, the author suggests possible solutions to the problem, but doesn't argue them just presents them.
- powerapple 8y ago
  it is not a problem. marriage will need stable economical base. most time, the money from both family will go into fund the couple's life, as deposit for an apartment, purchase of a car or some sort. I would recommend that do not go into marriage without a stable finance. The social system in western countries of course are different, people don't have to worry about these issues.
chaostheory 8y ago
Things have already changed. It's becoming more and more common in rural China to marry South East Asian women from places like Vietnam and Cambodia... which of course potentially spreads the problem https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-men/?utm_term=.855ea8d420a4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-...
rahimnathwani 8y ago
"they’ll likely drive bride-price transactions underground — and possibly to new heights as parents demand a risk premium for paying up." Eh? Wouldn't parents demand a risk discount for paying up?
- doombolt 8y ago
  Not if it's the seller's market.
- richardknop 8y ago
  Supply and demand. Demand is much higher than supply therefor parents of the girl have a lot of leverage. Price will go up.
puranjay 8y ago
I would like to see an equivalent study on Indian weddings. All the people I know who got married recently spent between $50-$100k on their wedding. My own wedding was about $50k. Food alone was nearly $20k (over 1200 guests were invited - which was on the low end)
- williamdclt 8y ago
  Genuine question: how is it possible to invite 1200 people? I can't imagine that you and your partner know 600 people each, I'd have a hard time finding 100 people to invite if I needed too
  - throw930336 8y ago
    In Chinese weddings, when you invite your friends, you also invite their relatives and families as well. It can definitely add up. And it's not just you inviting people, but your parents and their parents. It's not uncommon to actually not know 2/3s of the people at your wedding. The best part however is that each guest will give you a "red envelope" of money. It's basically the wedding gift. The more people you invite, the more money you can possibly make (even after the expenses of the wedding). This money is then used for the new coupe to start their family.
    - rahimnathwani 8y ago
      I was chatting with a retired couple. They told me that wedding red envelopes are the majority of their monthly expenditure. They're at the age where all their friends' kids are getting married. (They don't live in the capital, so I guess their rent is cheap or they own their apartment.)
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    It’s not so important about who the groom and bride knows, it’s more about everyone the groom and bride’s parents and grandparents know also. It’s more of a “bring the whole tribe together” affair, but only makes sense in villages when food and labor was cheap. But that was within the grandparents’ and parents’ lifetimes so it still lingers around, only now it’s a status symbol to show how well you’ve made it, and of course, some (most?) people choose to over extend themselves and choose to show off to the tribe rather than invest in their own future. Especially since the “tribe” is further and further away from the original rural villages which were geographically next to each other. The new tribes are split along educational and wealth boundaries, so anyone who thinks wasting money entertaining the tribe will help keep them in it is sorely mistaken.
blfr 8y ago
A good start would be a law that ensures a woman’s claim on marital property in the case of a divorce. Current Chinese law makes no such provision, and thus provides a strong disincentive to marry and a very powerful incentive to charge higher bride prices. We have laws like this in Europe. Marriages keep happening later and TFRs keep plummeting. Why would it work any different in China. Journalists always push their prefferred policies even when there's no proof they solve the very clearly stated problem. Subsidize kindergartens! Mandatory, paid maternal leaves! All while populations that implemented them keep collapsing.
- liftbigweights 8y ago
  Another false trope pushed by everyone... "Women are marrying later and having less kids because of career concerns, lack of maternity leave and child benefits." The countries with the best maternity leave and child benefits have the oldest marriage and lowest birth rates. And japan, where most women give up their jobs once married to start families and where the government pays women to have children have one of the lowest birth rates in the world. So it's not career/jobs, it's not maternity leave, it's not child benefits. Could it be societal? Media? Education?
  - ForHackernews 8y ago
    Maybe people don't want to bring children into a world that will be worse off in many ways than the one they grew up in? That hypothesis would correspond with the observation that it's the most educated, most long-term-focused people in (currently) stable societies that are delaying or avoiding children.
    - pmorici 8y ago
      "Maybe people don't want to bring children into a world that will be worse off in many ways than the one they grew up in?" Objective measurements show that the world better off than it was and still improving. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCm9Ng0bbEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCm9Ng0bbEQ
rick22 8y ago
Same in india its called the dowry system. But now women are employed more and guess what its not changing as much it should be. Its strange that the educated employed women is expecting dowry from her parents to give it to her husbands(in most cases). The core problem is its considered a status issue. If the grand marriages are not celebrated and looked down then this might change.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tomcam 8y ago
These are house down payment prices. My wife and I eloped and were married for a total of $270 in Las Vegas (25 years ago). It is easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. I have heard lots of people complain that they spent too much time, money and psychological goodwill on their elaborate marriage events, but I have never heard someone say they regretted a simple inexpensive wedding.
- tajen 8y ago
  There are studies that the larger the bed (at home) and the fancier the reception, the shorter the marriage. But more friends means longer marriage. Basically a barbecue with heaps of mates predicts the longest marriages. Of course the stats above are the land of correlations-not-causations; larger bed may mean financially more stable therefore more independant and less dependent on the partner’s income, or similar. Still fun ;)

129 points by tango24 8y ago

hkai 8y ago

I am planning to hopefully marry my girlfriend in the next couple of years and her parents are already asking for "at least a small amount like 10,000 USD", because "I'm white anyway", meaning I must be rich. Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them, and their lazy and useless way of life, they're not getting a penny from me. Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it.

kown223 8y ago
What happens if you don't pay? you need some written approval or what?
- hkai 8y ago
  What happens for her is strong condemnation and probably severing of ties with the family.
  - Simon_says 8y ago
    win-win?
- matz1 8y ago
  If her family is important for her, she probably break up with him.
echevil 8y ago
Nah they’ll ask for way more than 10k USD if they think you’re rich :) it’s common that they’ll ask you to buy a house/apartment first
scandox 8y ago
You’re going to enter into a relationship with the people you’re talking about (on a public forum) for the rest of your life.
- logicchains 8y ago
  Realistically, barring any massive progress in life-extension technology it's unlikely the poster will have to deal with his in-laws for the rest of his life (unless they're particularly murderous). Even less likely if he and his wife migrate away from China.
  - varjag 8y ago
    Fine, just for (better) half of their life then.
- falsedichotomy 8y ago
  western/white men who marry asian women oftentimes look down on the wife's culture or race. 'white savior complex'.
amrx431 8y ago
Same shit is happening in India. If you dont have a H1B and never worked in US, good luck finding a girl. I am 27 right now and that too a low caste. I am seriously contemplating giving up hopes of marriage and remaining single. Will be tough as I dont have a family. All my family members were killed when I was young. I have stopped bothering and now just bury myself in work and reading to avoid the darkness.
- logicchains 8y ago
  Don't give up hope. If India is anything like China, independent, educated young people are much more likely to make marriage decisions for love rather than money. The key thing to realise is that, if someone will only marry you for your financial status rather than love they'll probably be a terrible spouse, and similarly if they'd let their parents make their marriage decision for them they're also probably not the kind of person you want to marry. If they care about your caste, then they're a horrible racist and you certainly wouldn't want to marry them. If you go to a big city and hang out at the kind of places educated, independent young people go to, you might be surprised at how open-minded the people you meet are. Particularly art-related places; people who pursue an artistic career have potentially already demonstrated a preference for following one's heart over financial concerns.
  - lifeisstillgood 8y ago
    Possibly some of the best life advice in three paragraphs I have seen
  - user5994461 8y ago
    As my girlfriend would say. It comes as a package, the person has her feelings, body, character, social status, and family background, etc... It takes more than "love" to bond and have a lasting relationship. It's good advice to look for people who are somewhat similar.
- namanyayg 8y ago
  What city do you live in? I'm from Delhi and the situation is very different here for sure. And in India, the girl's family usually pays dowry (usually much more than $10k + gold jewelry) to the guy's family, so that's something literally opposite to China culture? As another commenter mentioned, the situation in metro is developed enough where you'll find a partner through love rather than status.
131sdfdasf 8y ago
How does $10k mean they think you are rich? That's chump change. They are being generous.
- namanyayg 8y ago
  Seems like this is a downvoted opinion, but I concur. Strange really, how much months/years of expenses would $10k get their family? Not much more than a few months I assume?
  - Macuyiko 8y ago
    Depends. In rural China this is still a lot of money.
    - throw930336 8y ago
      Not really. If they were really, really frugal, the most I could see that lasting is 2 years.
      - Macuyiko 8y ago
        See another comment in this thread: "$10,000 is typical for bride-price in China and only a bit higher than average annual Chinese income. The Chinese do save more than 30% of their income so that is about three years of savings for average earners in China". That seems more in line with my experience (and the $10,000 price is also something I've heard often). I could easily see my grandparents in law (who live in rural China) be able to live of $10k for three years, given that nothing exceptional happens.
        throw930336 8y ago
        I see what you're saying. I guess it depends on how people interpret "a lot." To me it would have to be at least 5x the average.
      - dEnigma 8y ago
chinamarriage 8y ago
$10,000 is typical for bride-price in China and only a bit higher than average annual Chinese income. The Chinese do save more than 30% of their income so that is about three years of savings for average earners in China, which is quite high for them admittedly. If you work in a Western country and have a decent job (otherwise why should their daughter marry you anyway?) you can save $10,000 in less than two years. Many Chinese bachelors can do better than that, either they can command or commit more resources. That is along what they think.
- user5994461 8y ago
  If you work in a Western country (Europe) and have a decent job, there is no way that you save that much unless living with flatmates or parents for years. Yearly income is around 10k, 20k or 30k before taxes, depending which part of Europe it is. It all goes to taxes, then rent, then food and car.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    You can live in many places of Europe without a car. Saving 420€/month while earning 30k is definitively possible if your only expenses are rent, utilities, food and public transport.
  - khuey 8y ago
    Living with flatmates or parents for years is exactly what they do in China.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
liftbigweights 8y ago
> Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them, and their lazy and useless way of life, they're not getting a penny from me. Then why are you planning to marry "into the family" if you have such a low opinion of them? > Many people though feel powerless to resist and ruin themselves financially by paying it. If $10K is going to ruin you financially, you shouldn't be marrying anyone. Not that I agree with the dowry custom, but $10K isn't that much money. Just because you are lonely or feel like the girl you have is the only one you could get isn't reason to get married. Despite what you think now, parents/siblings/family matter. Money matters. And the longer you are married, the more important family and money becomes. Don't get married out of naivety or desperation.
- cm2012 8y ago
  You can marry someone and not marry their family. My korean wife and I both know her family is an abusive horror show and have subsequently cut them off.
  - logicchains 8y ago
    I know a mainland Chinese person who completely cut off his own parents after they kept treating his wife poorly, a couple of decades ago when the country was much less developed. Culture is no excuse; a just person (for lack of a better word) is not going to tolerate their parents mistreating their partner, regardless of where they're born. People who accept terrible behaviour from family just because they're family only encourage them to continue such bad behaviour; terrible parents won't stop being terrible parents if they don't face any consequences. The Chinese language even has a rude word for someone who slavishly obeys their parents, "走狗", literally meaning "running dog".
coldtea 8y ago
>and their lazy and useless way of life Is that against some particular to them "lazy and useless way of life" they follow, or because their way of life doesn't match some american ideal (e.g. personal ambition and protestant-work-ethic), and thus it's "lazy and useless" because its different?
rqs 8y ago
The thing is, in China, you are not just married with the person you in love with, you also married to the family of that person. (And at the same time, that person is married to your family as well) I remember when my colleagues was talking about whether or not they're letting their wife to manage their money. One person brought up "I've paid ￥XXXXXX for the 彩礼[0], so I'm not allowing her to limit how I spend my salary". The idea was, as the man of the house, you provides, so you have some "power" over other family members. And that 10,000 USD you may need to pay, is the way of showing that you can provide. Of course, all of that above is the "modern" explanation. In the ancient time, where the gender inequality is much severe, the Bride Price is mainly served as compensation to the female's family. Because after been married, the female will technically "leave" their own family and become a part of the male's family. That's why "Getting Married" is called "出嫁" at the female side, where "出" means leave (her own family). One more thing, except for 彩礼[0], we also have 嫁妆[1] which is something that female's family will provide (technically to their own girl, though). If you want to dig deeper, checkout one[2] Wiki page (If you can read, the Chinese version is better). If you're living in China, better ask your local Chinese friends, I bet their information is more accurate and detailed than the Wiki page. Hope you have a happy marriage. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bride_price#China [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry#China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marriage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marriage
iforgotpassword 8y ago
> Taking into account all the abuse she had to take from them Some unsolicited advice, because internet: I really hope you understand what you're getting yourself into. I have no idea how familiar you are with Chinese culture, but be aware that family, especially parents, are very important in China. I'm sure you heard the "in China, you're not marrying a person, but a family" thing before. It really is deeply ingrained in Chinese culture, so depending on at which age and for how long she has lived in the West, despite her parents treating her bad, she might still feel a great urge to abide by her parents and pull an emergency bailout. Even if she decides to cut ties with her family, which might very well happen if you don't pay a dime and make her parents lose face, keep in mind that now you need to be extra sure she is well integrated locally (friends, activities, social life). Again this depends a lot on how westernized she is, if not that much, having Chinese friends is crucial if you're living in an entirely different culture. Just don't let her get all reclusive and spend all time on Chinese social media. This might sound like a joke but I've seen it happen. The culture barrier is real. I've seen Germans struggling to adapt to the American way of living and vice versa, and they're ridiculously close compared to China and any Western country. Also I hope the way her parents treat her doesn't trigger too much of a protective instinct. It's noble you want to help her but be really sure you know the person and want to stay with her. Breaking up now and sending her back to her parents might make her life miserable, or maybe not and she'll find someone back in China, but marrying her, fucking up her relationship with her parents and then realizing it doesn't work after a year or two will quite likely make her life miserable. (But depending on how ugly it has gotten, you might actually like that at that point). Again this is general precautionary advice, mostly assuming worst case conditions.
EliRivers 8y ago
How does your fiance, the person you presumably love and care about most in the world, feel about you doing that to her parents? I wonder how it affects her too; is it some kind of cultural statement that your fiance isn't worth anything? Hope not! It could be a pretty big insult to her parents that would affect her relationship with them (and possibly with the rest of her family as well) for the rest of her parents' lives, and depending on how she feels about it and how the rest of her family feels about it, could affect her for the rest of her life as well. If she's fine with it, sure, great plan. If it's going to make her miserable, perhaps not so great.

quotemstr 8y ago

Markets always appear next to scarcity, and laws against market operations always drive transactions underground, because supply and demand must be made to meet somehow. Without expressing approval per se of what's happening in China, I do have to express a total lack of surprise that people react to scarcity in one area in the same way they react to scarcity in every other. Extreme gender imbalances are societally destabilizing, and the Chinese government, which is obsessed with social stability, should have reacted much faster once it noticed the gender gap in newborns. Now, it's too late, and a generation will be unhappy.

kown223 8y ago
assuming those in control are there for meritocracy and are competent and that's why are there, they would have reacted, but no, are there due to their parens/people they know, and bribes.
watwut 8y ago
Are gender imbalances destabilising historically? It woild be interesting to see the history. After wars there was lack of men in some areas. Excess of men was during gold rush, in Australia and is in silicon valley. (I am not sure how much it proves or disproved theory.)
- geoffmunn 8y ago
  As a positive twist, women got the vote in New Zealand partly because of fears that a surplus of rowdy men 'on the frontier' would cause problems. Giving women the vote would give families more leverage in Parliament.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    Fears by who(m)? There must be some interesting partisan politics you are barely hinting at.
    - geoffmunn 8y ago

beerlord 8y ago

I think the title is misleading: its not really marriage costs, its a payment to the bride/parents to account for the gender disparity in China caused by sex-selective abortions. These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls - and actually sex-selectively abort boys. Unfortunately we are seeing all this in the West, where Asian migrants to countries like Australia are still selectively aborting girls. The difference is that other ethnicities are not, so those Asian boys can then grow up to marry girls from other communities, and a female shortage is pushed onto the whole of society. Its basically a tragedy of the commons.

barry-cotter 8y ago
Who cares what first generation immigrants do? Their children won’t do it and they’ll be a hell of a lot more acculturated than their parents ever will be. They won’t be doing sec selective abortion any more than those who are unhyphenated Australians.
- beerlord 8y ago
  Son-preference persists among second-generation migrants: https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2018/06/19/jech-2018-210622 https://jech.bmj.com/content/early/2018/06/19/jech-2018-2106... And migration is ongoing - so the effects will continually be felt. Its not as if the intake is a once-off. I think its grounds enough to only allow female immigrants from these problem countries, in order to balance out the population.
rectang 8y ago
> These bride costs should be allowed to climb infinitely, because it will serve as an incentive for families to have girls Wow, a market correction to counteract societal undervaluation of females. If it could happen that would be profoundly constructive, but attitudes about gender are durable. It's not hard to imagine that instead of letting the price rise to incentivize an increase in supply, we could see see price fixing and rationing instead: the exertion of greater control over scarce resources and backwards progress in women's rights.

plouffy 8y ago

Interesting article. I'm a little surprised on how abruptly the article just seems to end, the author suggests possible solutions to the problem, but doesn't argue them just presents them.

powerapple 8y ago
it is not a problem. marriage will need stable economical base. most time, the money from both family will go into fund the couple's life, as deposit for an apartment, purchase of a car or some sort. I would recommend that do not go into marriage without a stable finance. The social system in western countries of course are different, people don't have to worry about these issues.

chaostheory 8y ago

Things have already changed. It's becoming more and more common in rural China to marry South East Asian women from places like Vietnam and Cambodia... which of course potentially spreads the problem https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-men/?utm_term=.855ea8d420a4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/world/too-many-...

rahimnathwani 8y ago

"they’ll likely drive bride-price transactions underground — and possibly to new heights as parents demand a risk premium for paying up." Eh? Wouldn't parents demand a risk discount for paying up?

doombolt 8y ago
Not if it's the seller's market.
richardknop 8y ago
Supply and demand. Demand is much higher than supply therefor parents of the girl have a lot of leverage. Price will go up.

puranjay 8y ago

I would like to see an equivalent study on Indian weddings. All the people I know who got married recently spent between $50-$100k on their wedding. My own wedding was about $50k. Food alone was nearly $20k (over 1200 guests were invited - which was on the low end)

williamdclt 8y ago
Genuine question: how is it possible to invite 1200 people? I can't imagine that you and your partner know 600 people each, I'd have a hard time finding 100 people to invite if I needed too
- throw930336 8y ago
  In Chinese weddings, when you invite your friends, you also invite their relatives and families as well. It can definitely add up. And it's not just you inviting people, but your parents and their parents. It's not uncommon to actually not know 2/3s of the people at your wedding. The best part however is that each guest will give you a "red envelope" of money. It's basically the wedding gift. The more people you invite, the more money you can possibly make (even after the expenses of the wedding). This money is then used for the new coupe to start their family.
  - rahimnathwani 8y ago
    I was chatting with a retired couple. They told me that wedding red envelopes are the majority of their monthly expenditure. They're at the age where all their friends' kids are getting married. (They don't live in the capital, so I guess their rent is cheap or they own their apartment.)
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  It’s not so important about who the groom and bride knows, it’s more about everyone the groom and bride’s parents and grandparents know also. It’s more of a “bring the whole tribe together” affair, but only makes sense in villages when food and labor was cheap. But that was within the grandparents’ and parents’ lifetimes so it still lingers around, only now it’s a status symbol to show how well you’ve made it, and of course, some (most?) people choose to over extend themselves and choose to show off to the tribe rather than invest in their own future. Especially since the “tribe” is further and further away from the original rural villages which were geographically next to each other. The new tribes are split along educational and wealth boundaries, so anyone who thinks wasting money entertaining the tribe will help keep them in it is sorely mistaken.

blfr 8y ago

A good start would be a law that ensures a woman’s claim on marital property in the case of a divorce. Current Chinese law makes no such provision, and thus provides a strong disincentive to marry and a very powerful incentive to charge higher bride prices. We have laws like this in Europe. Marriages keep happening later and TFRs keep plummeting. Why would it work any different in China. Journalists always push their prefferred policies even when there's no proof they solve the very clearly stated problem. Subsidize kindergartens! Mandatory, paid maternal leaves! All while populations that implemented them keep collapsing.

liftbigweights 8y ago
Another false trope pushed by everyone... "Women are marrying later and having less kids because of career concerns, lack of maternity leave and child benefits." The countries with the best maternity leave and child benefits have the oldest marriage and lowest birth rates. And japan, where most women give up their jobs once married to start families and where the government pays women to have children have one of the lowest birth rates in the world. So it's not career/jobs, it's not maternity leave, it's not child benefits. Could it be societal? Media? Education?
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  Maybe people don't want to bring children into a world that will be worse off in many ways than the one they grew up in? That hypothesis would correspond with the observation that it's the most educated, most long-term-focused people in (currently) stable societies that are delaying or avoiding children.
  - pmorici 8y ago
    "Maybe people don't want to bring children into a world that will be worse off in many ways than the one they grew up in?" Objective measurements show that the world better off than it was and still improving. [0] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCm9Ng0bbEQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCm9Ng0bbEQ

rick22 8y ago

Same in india its called the dowry system. But now women are employed more and guess what its not changing as much it should be. Its strange that the educated employed women is expecting dowry from her parents to give it to her husbands(in most cases). The core problem is its considered a status issue. If the grand marriages are not celebrated and looked down then this might change.

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tomcam 8y ago

These are house down payment prices. My wife and I eloped and were married for a total of $270 in Las Vegas (25 years ago). It is easily one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. I have heard lots of people complain that they spent too much time, money and psychological goodwill on their elaborate marriage events, but I have never heard someone say they regretted a simple inexpensive wedding.

tajen 8y ago
There are studies that the larger the bed (at home) and the fancier the reception, the shorter the marriage. But more friends means longer marriage. Basically a barbecue with heaps of mates predicts the longest marriages. Of course the stats above are the land of correlations-not-causations; larger bed may mean financially more stable therefore more independant and less dependent on the partner’s income, or similar. Still fun ;)