20 ms·

Linus Torvalds: 'I'll never be cuddly but I can be more polite'

369 points by Flenser 8y ago

golergka 8y ago
> That has now been replaced by a more detailed Code of Conduct - which retains the acronym, but attempts to be more inclusive and eliminate insulting and derogatory comments and behaviour. To include only this short paragraph about the new CoC and omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated in the community is extremely biased reporting on BBC's part.
- cirgue 8y ago
  If you read what Linus himself had to say about it, it seems like BBC was honoring his interest in not having this piece contribute to the shouting match.
- woodie_w 8y ago
  Biased towards what, exactly?
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated That’s something that hasn’t happened, though. It’s a storm in a teacup, like all this stuff is.
  - eropple 8y ago
    Yes, and this is important to understand for those who happen to be browsing by: there is a political faction on the internet who really would like people to believe that there is some Huge Controversy about the Contributor Covenant or about any of the principals involved or this or that. But there isn't. Sure, there are some mad people. But they are a rounding error of give-a-shit and their political position, for it is a political position--specifically, status quo regressiveness camouflaged as neutrality[0]--depends on manufacturing consent that does not exist. [0] - I have yet to see someone claim that they're "not being political" who...isn't. Or somebody claim that somebody else is "being political" when that claimant is not advocating for some nasty stuff. The world's political and somebody trying to frame "politics" as a negative is trying to get you over a barrel.
- opencl 8y ago
  I think you stopped reading about halfway through the article. Because almost the entire second half of the article is about this.
- chimprich 8y ago
  > omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated in the community Which "community" though? Linus: > Have you read the Twitter feeds and other things by the people who seem to care more about the non-technical side? [...] It's a morass of nastiness. It sounds like Linus is saying that the argument is being carried out between groups who are not involved in kernel development.
pleasecalllater 8y ago
Some people are true leaders; some people are true bullies. This is a free world, you can choose your role. I'm choosing to stay away from bullies.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- baud147258 8y ago
  > I'm choosing to stay away from bullies. Who are the bullies in your opinion? Don't be shy, name and shame!
rectang 8y ago
It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.
- HenryBemis 8y ago
  He's an uncut (but polished) diamond, a bit rough around the edges but trully brilliant.
- asdkhadsj 8y ago
  This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux community inherently means he's a gifted communicator. Eg, I don't think I could behave like Linus and make a Linux-like community - I think his talent and intelligence carry his lack of communication skills. Which is not a discredit to him, we're all different. Thoughts?
  - matthewmacleod 8y ago
    Yes. That seems entirely plausible and even likely. Have you ever worked with someone who is both skilled and a good communicator? It’s an excellent experience, because good people skills are like a force multiplier on those technical skills.
  - Insanity 8y ago
    I also think Linux is successful because the tool and ideology appeals to people rather than Linus. In a huge part of development of distros you don't come into contact with Linus anyway, and they are part of the reason why Linux is popular. So I would not attribute the whole Linux effort and community to him. (He had a huge part in getting it off the ground though and I do not wish to minimize his influenve and input)
stemc43 8y ago
If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.
- mosselman 8y ago
  So you are either a truthful asshole or a kind liar? There are no people who are kind and honest?
  - temporary904 8y ago
    In the era of victimhood and "microaggressions" honesty does hurt people's feelings apparently. But we all know all that has nothing to do with honesty, it's about political control, in and outside a informal community. Open source is defacto an easy target since most projects don't have real organizations. The people who pull these stunts in the open source world have no power of persuasion in private businesses, they can't impose their dubious code of conducts,contributor covenants and other "post-meritocracy" manifesto there.
  - caf 8y ago
    I don't know, but the idioms of the "white lie" and "polite fiction" certainly imply some connection between impoliteness and truth-telling, don't they?
    - Nasrudith 8y ago
      Expectations of politeness generally involve letting people have their happy delusions if they aren't harming anyone. For instance for someone whose son went MIA in Vietnam and holds hopes that he will return one day telling them "He probably either died and his corpse was forgotten or in the off chance he is alive went AWOL with some peasant girl after getting fed up with the war and lives in fear that he will be found out.". Even if statistically it is 100% true that would be staggeringly rude to say to them.
    - catfish123 8y ago
      So what? There are also non benevolent lies and polite truth.
HugoDaniel 8y ago
Adding to the drama, I wonder what Stallman has to say about all this...
- DC-3 8y ago
  He wrote a very brief email. https://i.redd.it/1lbta0g910n11.png https://i.redd.it/1lbta0g910n11.png
  - zellyn 8y ago
    That email is just so Stallman. You have to enjoy his single-mindedness.
    - raxxorrax 8y ago
      Very true. That makes the mail kind of redundant.
      - inawarminister 8y ago
        No, it serves a purpose of driving Stallman's point more. Good enough.
        raxxorrax 8y ago
        True, that comment was just referencing his narrowing of the term Linux and that this is quite typical for him. I think his point is concise and I fully agree with it. "Be excellent to each other" is a vastly superior mission statement than the recent COCs in any form. The arguments of proponents aren't really convincing and I think they fail to recognize the essence of criticism against them.
    - DC-3 8y ago
      The world could descend into apocalypse and he'd still be typing curt dispatches about terminology from his libreboot thinkpad.
duxup 8y ago
"fake it" isn't even necessarily. Just finding new ways to express the same thing that is received differently and a different approach the sender takes when sending. It's all about learning skills and how to deploy them best. That's not to say it is EASY, but it isn't a monumental change IMO. It's just a personal API change ;)
nailer 8y ago
I remember looking at Linux's angrier style maybe 15 years ago (I would have been 22) and not being bothered. Someone made a stupid mistake and was getting a bollocking. Looking at it as a 37 year old last week, I'm surprised a grown man needed to be so aggressive. You can destroy the opinion or the behavior using reason without the aggression, which distracts. I like that Linux is changing this, though I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes (eg, recent harassment of Ted Tso).
- steve_taylor 8y ago
  > I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.
  - NikolaNovak 8y ago
    What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"? It sounds... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S
    - steve_taylor 8y ago
      The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org/ https://postmeritocracy.org/ Author and signatory #1 is the same as the Contributor Covenant, which is the CoC adopted by the Linux Kernel.
      - NikolaNovak 8y ago
        Thanks for the link! Upon my first read, as I frequently find is the case, I either agree or disagree with it, based on unfortunately unspecified context and goals. I feel in general many manifestos, value statements, etc (generally focusing on "how do we accomplish something") would benefit from stating goals ("what are we trying to accomplish"). Once we agree on the goals, we can more objectively (if not perfectly objectively) discuss do these methods and statements move us toward these goals. In general life, absolutely, I'll agree with most or maybe even all statements. I wouldn't even find them particularly controversial. Communication can be as important as technical skills - sure, I live that every day. We need to understand privilege, and enable everybody - absolutely. True on vast majority of projects in vast majority of contexts I've been part of. Etc But not all: If (for an extreme example) the context is a small highly proficient working group and goal is an unprecedented technical achievement, majority of these are either unproductive or counterproductive to the goal and the context. If you have three people in the world that understand math to accomplish this project, and your goal is to accomplish this project, you need to involve at least one of the three people in this project - their background, communication skillset, and other aspects notwithstanding. So stating goals is I find critical in evaluating methods to accomplish those goals.
to_bpr 8y ago
Another thing infested by, and in the process of being destroyed by, identity politics. What a shame.
navane 8y ago
I would like to see a scatter diagram with 'technical contribution' on one axis and 'CoC contribution' on the other axis, for all people involved.
- tao_oat 8y ago
  If an improved CoC means that more people feel able and encouraged to contribute, does that then count in favor of the 'technical contribution' axis for the people who wrote it? If not, your plot isn't all that useful.
- pavlov 8y ago
  That's like using "List of black Nobel Prize winners before 1950" as evidence that IQ correlates with skin pigment.
arayh 8y ago
I feel that Linus makes a good role model in the sense that he has real-world communication problems that he both recognizes and is attempting to overcome. This is not an easy thing to do and a lot of people undermine this reality.
yashap 8y ago
His quotes about political correctness are pretty interesting. Basically that neo-Nazis have tried to brand themselves as “just practical people against excessive political correctness,” but really that’s just a facade covering their true hate and racism. But now, if you’re ACTUALLY just someone who’s against excessive political correctness, you risk being associated with neo-Nazis. I’d consider myself pretty left-wing - for compassion towards others, very strongly against racism, sexism and homophobia, very pro immigration and multiculturalism. Still, I do often find current levels of political correctness a bit much - like if someone uses he/she, they’re almost never intentionally being anti-trans, so who cares? Or simply many on the left flying into outrage too easily. But it’s hard to express these views now, because neo-Nazis have been putting up this facade of “just against political correctness,” when in fact there’s real hate behind it. And now many on the left take any deviance from political correctness to indicate a neo-Nazi. Not a great situation, and certainly not one that encourages people to have productive conversations/disagreements.
- tomlock 8y ago
  Have you personally, in real life, encountered many people who were "outraged" by you using he/she?
  - yashap 8y ago
    In “real life,” no, but on the internet, yes.
    - tomlock 8y ago
      So my assumption then since you've said "many on the left" fly to outrage too easily, is that you don't know many people in real life who are on the left. Is that accurate?
      - yashap 8y ago
        Very wrong, I’m quite left wing myself, as are most of my friends/family. I’m really not sure why you’re jumping to these conclusions based on my post. In terms of “real life” vs. internet, people are just a lot more reasonable in person, with minimal outrage. But online, especially on discussion boards, people are constantly flying into outrage.
pytyper2 8y ago
There are a lot of us like Linus. The easy solution is not emotional counseling, it's an assistant/editor who can tone down his public comments. This is not a new problem.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  True. Have someone do a quick check before sending. "Do you really want to say it that way?"
davidkuhta 8y ago
Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."
- mcguire 8y ago
  They could have taken a quote from 2012: ""...should be retroactively aborted. Who the f+ck does idiotic things like that? How did they not die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?""
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - kyberias 8y ago
    That is just super funny. It always will be.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - mcguire 8y ago
      It is, absolutely. If you view software development as entertainment. If you view it asa profession, maybe not.
      - kyberias 8y ago
        Not true. The fact that professional software developer sometimes uses profane language does not mean it is not funny. I think Linus was actually trying to be funny with those statements. Some of us understand that humor, some of us don't.
l8again 8y ago
Here we go normalizing verbal abuses to just "not being polite enough". This culture is now so pervasive in our industry that people are wearing their rudeness to their fellow coworkers as a badge of honor. I have seen incredibly meek guys on the outside turn into monsters as soon as they get into their roles of lead devs or tech leads. Repeat after me - "Kindness is cool."
- zakm 8y ago
  I'm sure what you're talking about happens (although I personally haven't seen it). What also happens is that cultural differences lead to two people having different perceptions of the same event. One views it as "honest and blunt" and the other views it as "rude." I think a lot of the pushback comes from people who have personally delivered things they view as "honest and blunt" and have had others say that they are being "rude" or "mean-spirited," and they view things like this CoC as a push by the thin-skinned to institutionalizing niceness at the expense of honesty.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  There's a huge difference between being 'very frank' and being a true douche. Both can be perceived as jerkoff but I think only the later really counts as that. As far as 'meek guys' turning to jerks with a taste of power - it's very common for all types. Without going into my background I had a chance to witness 100's of young people come into, and go out of power. Almost everyone 'over identifies' with their power when they first get it. It takes 'coming out of power' to have self reflection and awareness about it. Tragically - so many people in their careers just go 'up' the power ladder and never develop any awareness. It takes going 'down' or 'laterally' a few notches to really internalize the lessons. The situation I was in, I witnessed a lot of 'power rotation' i.e. people taking turns being lead/manager. It was a really, really powerful thing. Though this was not in high tech and a completely different field, not sure it would work in tech.
  - jlawson 8y ago
    I'd love to read more about what you've seen with power rotation, with any specifics or stories you could give. It's not something I've heard before.
alfredmuffin 8y ago
I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST"). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  > That would simply not fly at my company. Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.
  - alfredmuffin 8y ago
    Can't speak for others, but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness. Naturally, the individuals who argued against these changes were older white male engineers too ingrained in their ways.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      > but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least he's honest" makes sense.
      - alfredmuffin 8y ago
        Employee happiness is directly correlated with productivity.
ritchiea 8y ago
The idea of faking it until you make it is exactly what Linus needs. Most of the point of communication is for the other person, especially giving feedback on patches. We all need to vent but we shouldn't vent at the people below us in an organization. Venting is for a counselor, and maybe a close peer? And it's ok if he's frustrated with people, he just shouldn't take it out on them. Maybe he could find someone to get his own frustrations out to, while only sharing the productive, practical code related aspects with his developers.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  Personally I consider fake it until you make it an incredibly dangerous ideal. That is how you get the Great Leap Forward, Banzai Charges, and Theranos. It leads to far too many delusions that become the seeds of downfall. Better to say in the case of Theranos state that the initial idea is proving non-viable but we have assembled a good talent base in biotech. We technically could liquidate the existing investment but that wouldn't work well for recovering the assets. We can pivot to find tests that do work on fingertip blood other than existing glucose or other areas of research instead would have kept Holmes out of prison and potentially gotten a success out of it. Failure happens and an honest postmortem with a way forward is better than going ponzi.
  - digitaLandscape 8y ago
    It takes a special kind of motivated stupidity to project from Linus' statement to Theranos. Stop trolling.
    - scrollaway 8y ago
      Holy hell, watch the aggression. The person you're replying to is addressing the specific "fake it till you make it" statement, not "Linus". Your post and attitude are completely inappropriate.
  - ritchiea 8y ago
    It is quite a stretch to compare making yourself be kind to a colleague or underling despite your own frustrations with defrauding investors.
tomlock 8y ago
Does anyone else find it weird how so many people can think Linus is utterly brilliant and thoughtful, can agree with him on almost everything he's done and said up to this point, but fall back on the belief that he's been conspired against and corrupted when he says things like: > "...I may have my reservations about excessive political correctness, but honestly, I absolutely do not want to be seen as being in the same camp as the low-life scum on the internet that think it's OK to be a white nationalist Nazi, and have some truly nasty misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic behaviour. And those people were complaining about too much political correctness too, and in the process just making my public stance look bad. > "And don't get me wrong, please - I'm not making excuses for some of my own rather strong language. But I do claim that it never ever was any of that kind of nastiness. I got upset with bad code, and people who made excuses for it, and used some pretty strong language in the process. Not good behaviour, but not the racist/etc claptrap some people spout. > "So in the end, my 'I really don't want to be too PC' stance simply became untenable. Partly because you definitely can find some emails from me that were simply completely unacceptable, and I need to fix that going forward. But to a large degree also because I don't want to be associated with a lot of the people who complain about excessive political correctness." I dunno, maybe if he was being brilliant and thoughtful for all those years, he's still... being brilliant and thoughtful now?
- krapp 8y ago
  Unfortunately, we've come to the point in online discourse where any form of self-restraint or politeness is seen by some as excessive political correctness, and accepting any form of nuance is giving in to SJW propaganda.
kristianc 8y ago
I think this comes across as incredibly nuanced and thoughtful. Often we only see the outer surface of what people are actually like, and make judgments on their character based on that.
Vinnl 8y ago
His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and the only reason Linus is now openly on "their side" (for lack of a term that better describes what I mean), is because the "other side" also was really nasty, pushing him away from them. It took a while for me to realise what privileges I have had that some others have not. The first step to realising that was being open to that even being possible, and shouting contests do not encourage that. I'd love it if Linus' approach here would lead to less-heated discussions and actual insights on the subject, but the hate and vitriol I've seen spewed in his direction after his announcement doesn't make me hopeful...
- werid 8y ago
  > However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. Doesn't sound like you actually supported the cause if you can be pushed away from it like that.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - cirgue 8y ago
    "If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" is a load of nonsense in any context, and doubly so in politics.
    - chooseaname 8y ago
      > "If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" Said every wife beater who ever lived.
      - Something1234 8y ago
RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago
> Because I may have my reservations about excessive political correctness, but honestly, I absolutely do not want to be seen as being in the same camp as the low-life scum on the internet that think it's OK to be a white nationalist Nazi, and have some truly nasty misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic behaviour. And those people were complaining about too much political correctness too, and in the process just making my public stance look bad. > ... > But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. So the obnoxious Manosphere who are the most (only?) vocal critics of the new CoC forced his hand in the first place. How fittingly ironic.
yosefzeev 8y ago
I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for alternatives that understand the division between spiritual beliefs and "forced agreement with an assertion by participation" that uses religious terminology that has quite a different meaning to me. So far, hurd and is promising.
- krapp 8y ago
  >I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. A "hacker ethos" is a political belief.
  - yosefzeev 8y ago
    It is but you don't need an OS to define it.
    - krapp 8y ago
      But it seems as if the politics being discussed here apply to the project and its contributors, it's not as if a Code of Conduct is being applied to you, the end user. Unless they add something political to the license itself, I don't see why it would matter.
      - yosefzeev 8y ago
        If it doesn't matter, why is Linus making it an issue?
        eropple 8y ago
        Oh, heck, I don't know. Maybe because he realizes he's been pissing in the pool, that others are also pissing in the pool, that nobody should be pissing in the pool, and the first step to creating a social understanding of "don't piss in the pool" is to put up a sign to that effect. Or maybe it's the evil, mustachio-twirling social justice warriors, somehow hectoring a project worth billions of dollars to its component contributors into listening to little old them. That is equally as plausible.
scott_s 8y ago
Something I don't think he has internalized yet is that it's not about "politeness" or "cursing." It's about abuse, which is still possible while being polite and without cursing.
- kyberias 8y ago
  Have you internalized that cursing is not necessarily abuse? Linus has basically just being angry to people and cursed.
  - scott_s 8y ago
    Insulting people based on the work they produce is abuse.
    - kyberias 8y ago
      Dictionary definition for abuse is: "treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." I don't think Linus has ever treated anyone with cruelty or violence. Saying to someone "shut up" or that their specific work item is garbage, is not abuse.
      - scott_s 8y ago
        Linus regularly and repeatedly was cruel to people when he perceived they made mistakes. Examples of his behavior are easy to find, and widely cited in any discussion on HN about it.
        kyberias 8y ago
        No, he wasn't cruel to people. If someone makes a mistake and one reacts to that with strong language is not cruel. It's actually love. People make stupid mistakes. Making them and everyone else understand that certain stuff is not acceptable is important. Was it absolutely necessary or optimal to react that strongly? No. But not cruel.
igtztorrero 8y ago
The root cause is the asperger syndrome AD that all good programer has. In our company have the same issue, coders we are so bad and cruel with sales and support departmants, they are not at our "level" this causes a lot of problems.
mfrw 8y ago
tl;dr > "Will everybody be happy? No. People who don't like my blunt behaviour even when I'm not being actively nasty about it will just see that as 'look, nothing changed'. I'm trying to get rid of my outbursts, and be more polite about things, but technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."
gambler 8y ago
>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make institutional changes to signal that they - personally - arent's "the disgusting underbelly of the internet". Pause and think about it.
- richard_todd 8y ago
  Yeah that’s what stood out to me when I read it, as well. Everything was sounding reasonable, and then he gets to this part I read as: “my anti-PC position was untenable because bad people are also anti-PC and I don’t want to be associated with them.” That’s just not a viable way to operate. I’m sure some of the most vile people on the planet use Linux... should he stop to avoid being associated with them? Besides, if your motivation is not liking when people compare you to a Nazi, then Godwin’s law says you can’t win no matter how hard you try. The lack of objective measures he referenced early in the article will allow his accusers to shift their criteria at will.
- iliketosleep 8y ago
  Actually, is this an example of what they call "virtue signaling"?
  - bluntfang 8y ago
    It's not virtue signaling because there's actually action behind the words. If there was just a statement without change or action, it would be virtue signaling.
    - iliketosleep 8y ago
      Thank you. I get it now. It's one of those terms I'd heard often but never completely understood.
notacoward 8y ago
IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you look at many of the anti-CoC comments (e.g. in the "killswitch" thread) you get to see a lot of that underbelly. There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. The other alternative is for an even bigger bully to keep them in line, but I shouldn't need to explain how "might makes right" is even more problematic. Linus is deliberately stepping away from that bigger-bully role to give the alternative a try, but in the above excerpt he makes it pretty clear that he thinks there's a problem to be addressed. The creeps should consider themselves on notice, whether there's a CoC or not.
- adamrezich 8y ago
  >There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots, expressing frustration at their inability to continue to act bigoted while within proximity to open-source? Either you've been going to wildly different parts of the Internet than I have recently, or your understanding of the side of the argument opposite you is based on a practically-nonexistent strawman, which is causing you to be completely unable to understand where "the other side" is actually coming from.
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    I've generally been against CoC in less-than-huge projects for practical reasons (as a founder and leader of several communities, both in FOSS and outside of software, I have my informed opinion on what works to maintain good community health). I can attest that the people GP refers to exist, but it's more complicated than that. Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the community in question, which raises the implication that the community hasn't been welcoming thus far (and often enough, that's wrong). They're also often seen as a way to legitimize a "we can silence you for any reason we choose" behaviour that is far too frequent in community moderators. This is all very context-dependant. Point is there are legitimate concerns over codes of conduct. Unfortunately, those concerns disproportionally affect the category of nasty people mentioned in GP, and that category gets way more defensive and, since this is the internet, tends to jump into these issues even when they're not part of the community in question and hijacking the topic. ... and since this is the internet, this also happens on the pro-CoC side. Which basically results in 95% outside noise on both sides of any sensitive topic that happens to catch public wind. It's super easy to point to nasty people on both sides of the issue. It's also very easy to get radicalized by seeing how nasty the "other side" is and becoming part of the problem. And those getting caught in that filter tend not to, as you say, "understand where the other side is coming from". ---- Edit: Downvotes are very telling of the behaviour I describe, btw. This post has gone between -3 and +3 and back without a single reply. It's not about discussion, it's just about whether people think I'm part of their "camp". No room for mixed arguments.
qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago
No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. If that person doesn't like working with someone, that's their problem and they should work elsewhere. I'm sick of this SJW stuff.
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  I'd avoid changing myself over one random person's opinion. If a large number of people held the same opinion about me, and that group contained numerous people whose opinions I tend to respect and agree with, I might consider the possibility that I'm not perfect and work to better myself.
  - qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago
    Let me nail down my point. If a certain group of people with a similar social or political ideology doesn't like me, I'm not changing. That's what this is all about. Edit: To discount all that LT has done and to what extent his work that de facto runs almost everything - is naive.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      > To discount all that LT has done As far as I can determine, literally no one is doing this.
- qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago
  And here come the SJW downvotes - you people are so predictable.
- jacobmoe 8y ago
  > No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. That's ridiculous. Every one of us changes our behavior because of someone else's opinions of us. It's the central mechanism for how humanity has been cooperating since the very beginning. Anyone who claims to not care about others opinions of them is likely trying to be liked by the kind of person who thinks it's cool to not care about others opinions. Every word you say is a virtue signal - you want others to think you're smart, to think you're good, to think you're the kind of person they should coorperate with. The only time you're not virtue signaling is when you're listening.
ayyyyylmao2000 8y ago
Linus had to step away likely because some paid agent gained dirt on him (I wouldn't be surprised if hired by Intel). Eventually, some woman may have had five minutes alone with him, where nothing happened, but enough time to be able to slander him if she so wishes. And having a family, he had to step back to avoid damage. As a reminder, both Linus and his second in-command Tso have rejected numerous backdoor attempts by Intel. This Code-of-Conduct debacle is a political weapon to expel the original contributors of open-source projects who pose an obstacle to multinational technology corporations. Linux was developed in a mailing list with complete anonymity. Race or religion are only brought into play if someone decides to provide personal details. The more interesting thing is that on Reddit, all discussion about this was censored. Furthermore, to top it off, the individual responsible for this public witch hunt has been caught tweeting on how glorious it is that developers of Linux will start going out en mass. https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/ https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controve... EDIT: to the down-voting shills, please do provide constructive commentary on this idea, valid as any other.
matz1 8y ago
I don't understand, what forced him to have to change his behavior? As far as i know he has the highest authority of linux kernel. To me he his kind of guy who can say fuck you, my way or highway. Which i admire that.
- panzagl 8y ago
  Because he knows it's only a matter of time until someone grabs an email of his from 1998 and uses it as the centerpiece of a twitter shitstorm.
ericdykstra 8y ago
The "Contributor Covenant" is just the method of covert conquest of open source projects by people who have never contributed to them. It's possible to have a Code of Conduct without giving it the power to be a selectively-used cudgel written and pushed by people who want to do just that. For example, I think the Ruby Community Conduct Guideline is a great document: https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/ https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/
- 7000skeletons 8y ago
  I've never read Ruby's Conduct Guidelines before, but they look really well-suited to open source projects. Short, simple, to the point.
throwaway456321 8y ago
Unbelievable that a man who has given as much to the industry as Torvalds, for relatively little reward, is forced to take part in this self-abasement.
doktrin 8y ago
Fair enough, honestly. As someone who's broadly sympathetic to his managerial style, I totally understand the desire to distance himself from those in the 'underbelly of the internet' who use an 'anti PC / SJW' stance to (poorly) mask their own bigotry.
conradfr 8y ago
To the person who said (since deleted or moderated) that Linus changed because "they" had dirt on him : his daughter signed the "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" and is into "intersectional feminism" so I think a more pragmatic answer is that she convinced him to change.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  There's no need for intersectionalism in this at all. In fact, I'd argue it's wrong. Intersectionalism would argue that peoople of different backgrounds must have special treatment. There's no need for that whatsoever. All we need is for people to not personally attack or demean others. After that ... people should be free to be more 'candid' at the possibly cost of upsetting someone, or more 'sensitive' at the possibly cost of the message being lost in sugar coating as they feel suited. Linus can be harsh as long as it's valid criticism of a subject (or maybe big corp), not a person. Beyond that he's fully within his rights to say whatever. He does not need to treat people different given whatever background they have.
mishurov 8y ago
How will Linux ever recover? I want kernel to be based and red-pilled.
another-cuppa 8y ago
I guarantee this will not increase kernel quality, nor will it increase the number of contributions from women.
- aembleton 8y ago
  Why not?
mike22223333 8y ago
I'm probably a person with not so great social skills. I'm a person of color. I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture. All of a sudden this movement to add "diversity" and other crap is just not right. I agree there is some casual racism/racism for the sake of racism in the community, but I am personally not even bothered and it has never affected me (I ignored them and they stopped and some of them now are my close friends). When I joined the industry, I felt a bit unwelcome, but just in a months no problem was ever there. I saw that people had a different culture then me, so I just over few months I adapted the same culture subconsciously. The maintainers should always value merit over "diversity" or "women in tech" agendas and other stupid similar things. We're not a playground for your political agendas. My personal contributions have been blocked several times, but it never bothered me. I did what I loved, and my contributions were committed after trying for a few times. Instead of wondering why my commits weren't merged and blaming on xenophobia/racism/fascism/blameism/bla bla bla , I decided to look at the patterns of commits that were successfully accepted. Every community has a different culture so if you cannot adopt what everyone is following, maybe this industry is not right for you.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
  >I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture. All the SJW issues are like that, a group of people who feel they need to defend someone else. Like these people have solved all their own problems and can move on to "helping" everyone else. I'm not going to get too fired up about it. But... I really cringe when I read "We're trying to change the predominately white face of programming". But, they aren't saying they'll do that by promoting people of color, or by opening a new distro that designed to be contributed more by people focused on social justice. IDK... At some point I wonder why the color of my skin is so important to the people "trying to help". edit: LOL shy downvotes. Because you can't tell me my skin color or physical features are important to my work - but you can't say that's not what this is all about either. Hackernews is becoming more and more like reddit :(
  - 13years 8y ago
    The problem is this entire ideology is paradox. Improving inclusivity through exclusivity filters. Being accepting of everyone by closely monitoring all parameters of all individuals to determine if they should be accepted.
whiddershins 8y ago
The article literally quotes him out of context, then prints his full email showing they quoted him out of context, and hopes you won’t notice???? He didn’t call the Linux community “a morass of nastiness" ... he was referring to Twitter mobs. How could the article get that so wrong?
JohnBooty 8y ago
> I'm still not exactly the most empathetic person. > But I'm hoping I can at least 'fake it until I > make it'. This is great! If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. What do you think "actually" being a helpful or empathetic person is like? It's basically just continually expending the effort to be helpful and empathetic. Let's say my brother calls me up on a Saturday morning. He needs help moving some furniture. Do I really feel like doing that? Fuuuuuuuuuck no. Will I say "yes" anyway? Probably, because even though I'd rather play tennis or sleep or play video games I want to help him. So I will consciously expend the effort to go do the good thing for him. Am I being "actually" good there or am I just "faking it"? I don't really think there's a difference. Nobody really wants to spend a day off moving furniture for free. Same thing with reviewing a pull request. I am not known as a caustic reviewer, but that's because I spend the effort to try and make sure I'm not caustic. What is the difference between me consciously expending the effort and Linus consciously expending the effort? (I mean, y'know, besides Linus being 1000x more productive and talented than me) Is one of us more "authentic?" I would say there's no difference.
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  The best part was the next sentence: > Part of that 'faking it' is definitely going to be a filter on my outgoing emails That's about 95% of what people asked for over the decades. You can get your point across without incendiary language and belittling comments, and merely scanning for sensitive words is enough for most cases
  - JohnBooty 8y ago
    FWIW - I don't know if there are FOSS implementations, but beyond simple word scanning (which I agree could be pretty effective!) there are also sentiment analysis tools out there.
- taeric 8y ago
  Depends entirely on how good you are at faking it. That is, if it can be easily seen that you are faking; then no, it is not as good. Not even close. Your brother scenario is silly. If someone calls and I don't want to help, but can. I'll be honest and make my own choice. If they ask if this is what I'd truly like to be doing, I'll always say no. However, in most cases, I don't actually care what I'm doing. Could I come up with something more fun? Maybe, but just being social in any way is typically its own ends.
modzu 8y ago
damn. we need more linus, not less.
wayne_skylar 8y ago
This is something that has always bothered me about Linus. There are other extremely gifted programmers out there that don't seem to need to resort to this kind of persona. I always enjoyed hearing John Carmack speak because he is extremely smart and knowledgable and he doesn't look like he has a superiority complex. But the real problem with Linus is the example he sets. I am not a kernel dev, so I don't know the validity of his rants but I assume he is mostly right. But this certainly sends a message to less-talented developers that it's okay to be a dick when you are right. Ultimately I feel that the most important thing I have learned as a developer is to never associate your ego with your code. I've done that in the past and take great pains to not repeat it. Don't look at your PR as some great work of art that should be perfect. If both sides of the code review treat it as a collaborative process then you can both learn something from it.
- Boulth 8y ago
  Note that Linus has to deal with a lot of random people on the mailing list while Carmack doesn't have this kind of job. Also, I don't think Linus has superiority complex, although I don't know him personally. I guess it's just a classic example of technical person that has weak soft skills.
- ordu 8y ago
  What really bothers me, it when people start to speak about someone who "sends message", "sets wrong example" and so on. It bothers me, when people think about others, like they are less intelligent. If you can see, that Linus's behaviour is wrong and shouldn't be followed, why do you think, that other could not see it? It is because all others are stupid children and they need to be led to the right direction, isn't it? You know, I'm russian, and I see a lot of this thinking around me, all the deeply patriotic and deeply religious people around me thinks like that. "We should restrict access to internet, for others do not get information they are too stupid to understand properly". I hate it, and probably extra-sensitive for such a thinking, and it really bothers me when I see it. I can suggest different way of thinking: if Linus's behaviour is wrong, then it gives you endless opportunity to illustrate your point with real world examples. You can compare Carmack with Torvalds because Torvalds exists and being himself.
smoothy2 8y ago
The only functional change out of this whole drama is that now every project will eventually come to be run by SJWs. Looks like the main change that the COC will introduce from previous status quo is that anyone anytime can be Brendan Eiche'd out of an open source project whereas previously the understanding was that you could accept code contribution from Alex Jones himself as long as the code contribution to project itself was reasonable. Edit: I should add that I'm a non-white person. Shameful that adding this piece of information might bring some more credibility to my input.
ryandrake 8y ago
I’m all for civility, but we (tech culture, primarily Silicon Valley) are starting to move past civility, towards expecting everyone to self-censor and walk around on eggshells in order to avoid even potentially offending someone. I’ve worked with my share of unpleasant assholes, and am glad that professional, civil conversation is back on the menu, but the pendulum is still swinging. Worried about where it will end up.
luord 8y ago
As someone who doesn't give a damn about other people so I treat everyone (except family and the few friends I have) with the same curtness, here's hoping what Linus said here is just an "extra mile" thing (but even that sets a not necessarily good example). I never insult anyone, but I'm also never friendly to anyone, beyond a perfunctory smile when buying something from a cashier for example. I'm similarly short on text. Linus saying that he could be more polite tells me that even that is not "PC" enough and, if so, that's a problem. Nobody is owed any friendliness or niceness, just acknowledgement, and even that only if the other person needs us. In short, I thought he just needed to stop insulting people, but that that aside, there was no problem with his communication, apparently that's not the general consensus. Or I'm hoping I'm reading the situation wrong.
dbuder 8y ago
I think it's a pity he has been made to kowtow, I hope it doesn't diminish his productivity, some of his behaviour was bad but I'm always willing to give rockstars a pass up until a point. Things are in a different phase for OSS and Linus and maybe it won't affect him.
gwbas1c 8y ago
I'm far from perfect and have made plenty of poor comments. IMO, these happen when there is an underlying organizational problem. It's not tolerance of bad behavior that's the problem, tolerance of bad behavior just means that the organization is unwilling to address the real problems. In my direct experience, I was part of an organization that didn't train newcomers in process or define clear divisions of labor. The organization made no effort to accommodate it's need for uninterrupted programmer time. As the organization fixed its management problems, I got less feedback about these kind of remarks. It also helped that when these kinds of remarks happen, management realized it is not doing its part to direct the organization well.
devit 8y ago
I think the explanation for Linus' behavior is this: when he looks at works that he believes are technically wrong, he's probably displeased, frustrated and afraid that other contributions with the same technical issues might go through unnoticed. As a result, he sometimes insults the code and the person, probably because that relieves those negative emotions, "compensates" for the pain he had to endure reviewing the technically wrong work and makes his opinion as loud as possible so that the likelihood that other contributions have the same issues is minimized. The solution is for him to be more emotionally accepting of the fact that some people are technically less skilled and some contributions are not well done and just accept the negative feelings without having to insult others to compensate, while also expressing better when he feels that a mistake should be carefully avoided in the future as it might otherwise happen again.
rick22 8y ago
Its confusing. Linus is ok to have the post-meritocratic COC at the same time will not accept the code that is low quality code. So he is saying you can have all the COC but i will not follow it.
greenhatman 8y ago
We couldn't have hoped for a better outcome, I think. This is the perfect outcome.
SocialPath 8y ago
This Code of Conduct is just a power grab. But none of you nerds seem to get it. Which is understandable, since nerds don't understand social dynamics and power structure.

369 points by Flenser 8y ago

> That has now been replaced by a more detailed Code of Conduct - which retains the acronym, but attempts to be more inclusive and eliminate insulting and derogatory comments and behaviour. To include only this short paragraph about the new CoC and omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated in the community is extremely biased reporting on BBC's part.

cirgue 8y ago
If you read what Linus himself had to say about it, it seems like BBC was honoring his interest in not having this piece contribute to the shouting match.
woodie_w 8y ago
Biased towards what, exactly?
matthewmacleod 8y ago
omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated That’s something that hasn’t happened, though. It’s a storm in a teacup, like all this stuff is.
- eropple 8y ago
  Yes, and this is important to understand for those who happen to be browsing by: there is a political faction on the internet who really would like people to believe that there is some Huge Controversy about the Contributor Covenant or about any of the principals involved or this or that. But there isn't. Sure, there are some mad people. But they are a rounding error of give-a-shit and their political position, for it is a political position--specifically, status quo regressiveness camouflaged as neutrality[0]--depends on manufacturing consent that does not exist. [0] - I have yet to see someone claim that they're "not being political" who...isn't. Or somebody claim that somebody else is "being political" when that claimant is not advocating for some nasty stuff. The world's political and somebody trying to frame "politics" as a negative is trying to get you over a barrel.
opencl 8y ago
I think you stopped reading about halfway through the article. Because almost the entire second half of the article is about this.
chimprich 8y ago
> omit any reference to the huge controversy this have generated in the community Which "community" though? Linus: > Have you read the Twitter feeds and other things by the people who seem to care more about the non-technical side? [...] It's a morass of nastiness. It sounds like Linus is saying that the argument is being carried out between groups who are not involved in kernel development.

pleasecalllater 8y ago

Some people are true leaders; some people are true bullies. This is a free world, you can choose your role. I'm choosing to stay away from bullies.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
baud147258 8y ago
> I'm choosing to stay away from bullies. Who are the bullies in your opinion? Don't be shy, name and shame!

rectang 8y ago

It's interesting that Torvalds describes himself as "not a people person", when he's a gifted communicator who has been tremendously successful at managing the community around Linux over many years. His current refinements are making a great thing even better.

HenryBemis 8y ago
He's an uncut (but polished) diamond, a bit rough around the edges but trully brilliant.
asdkhadsj 8y ago
This is more of a question than a critique on your comment, but: Couldn't he still not be a people person _(perhaps a poor communicator)_, and still manage a successful community? I say that because historically it's been a bit of a meme around how forceful and abrasive Linus is. Yet, he's often right, or at the very least very informed. He's a very smart man who has done very smart things. I'm not sure if the Linux community inherently means he's a gifted communicator. Eg, I don't think I could behave like Linus and make a Linux-like community - I think his talent and intelligence carry his lack of communication skills. Which is not a discredit to him, we're all different. Thoughts?
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  Yes. That seems entirely plausible and even likely. Have you ever worked with someone who is both skilled and a good communicator? It’s an excellent experience, because good people skills are like a force multiplier on those technical skills.
- Insanity 8y ago
  I also think Linux is successful because the tool and ideology appeals to people rather than Linus. In a huge part of development of distros you don't come into contact with Linus anyway, and they are part of the reason why Linux is popular. So I would not attribute the whole Linux effort and community to him. (He had a huge part in getting it off the ground though and I do not wish to minimize his influenve and input)

stemc43 8y ago

If not for this guy - we wouldn't have Linux. I'd much rather work with honest person that can tell me how he really feels then nice spoken liars.

mosselman 8y ago
So you are either a truthful asshole or a kind liar? There are no people who are kind and honest?
- temporary904 8y ago
  In the era of victimhood and "microaggressions" honesty does hurt people's feelings apparently. But we all know all that has nothing to do with honesty, it's about political control, in and outside a informal community. Open source is defacto an easy target since most projects don't have real organizations. The people who pull these stunts in the open source world have no power of persuasion in private businesses, they can't impose their dubious code of conducts,contributor covenants and other "post-meritocracy" manifesto there.
- caf 8y ago
  I don't know, but the idioms of the "white lie" and "polite fiction" certainly imply some connection between impoliteness and truth-telling, don't they?
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    Expectations of politeness generally involve letting people have their happy delusions if they aren't harming anyone. For instance for someone whose son went MIA in Vietnam and holds hopes that he will return one day telling them "He probably either died and his corpse was forgotten or in the off chance he is alive went AWOL with some peasant girl after getting fed up with the war and lives in fear that he will be found out.". Even if statistically it is 100% true that would be staggeringly rude to say to them.
  - catfish123 8y ago
    So what? There are also non benevolent lies and polite truth.

HugoDaniel 8y ago

Adding to the drama, I wonder what Stallman has to say about all this...

DC-3 8y ago
He wrote a very brief email. https://i.redd.it/1lbta0g910n11.png https://i.redd.it/1lbta0g910n11.png
- zellyn 8y ago
  That email is just so Stallman. You have to enjoy his single-mindedness.
  - raxxorrax 8y ago
    Very true. That makes the mail kind of redundant.
    - inawarminister 8y ago
      No, it serves a purpose of driving Stallman's point more. Good enough.
      - raxxorrax 8y ago
        True, that comment was just referencing his narrowing of the term Linux and that this is quite typical for him. I think his point is concise and I fully agree with it. "Be excellent to each other" is a vastly superior mission statement than the recent COCs in any form. The arguments of proponents aren't really convincing and I think they fail to recognize the essence of criticism against them.
  - DC-3 8y ago
    The world could descend into apocalypse and he'd still be typing curt dispatches about terminology from his libreboot thinkpad.

duxup 8y ago

"fake it" isn't even necessarily. Just finding new ways to express the same thing that is received differently and a different approach the sender takes when sending. It's all about learning skills and how to deploy them best. That's not to say it is EASY, but it isn't a monumental change IMO. It's just a personal API change ;)

nailer 8y ago

I remember looking at Linux's angrier style maybe 15 years ago (I would have been 22) and not being bothered. Someone made a stupid mistake and was getting a bollocking. Looking at it as a 37 year old last week, I'm surprised a grown man needed to be so aggressive. You can destroy the opinion or the behavior using reason without the aggression, which distracts. I like that Linux is changing this, though I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes (eg, recent harassment of Ted Tso).

steve_taylor 8y ago
> I do have concerns about the CoC being used for political purposes That's the CoC's entire purpose. Its author (the same person behind the post-meritocracy manifesto) has said that yes, the CoC is a political document.
- NikolaNovak 8y ago
  What is a "post-meritocracy manifesto"? It sounds... opposite from everything I thought we've all been fighting for in the tech community, but I could be wrong? :-S
  - steve_taylor 8y ago
    The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org/ https://postmeritocracy.org/ Author and signatory #1 is the same as the Contributor Covenant, which is the CoC adopted by the Linux Kernel.
    - NikolaNovak 8y ago
      Thanks for the link! Upon my first read, as I frequently find is the case, I either agree or disagree with it, based on unfortunately unspecified context and goals. I feel in general many manifestos, value statements, etc (generally focusing on "how do we accomplish something") would benefit from stating goals ("what are we trying to accomplish"). Once we agree on the goals, we can more objectively (if not perfectly objectively) discuss do these methods and statements move us toward these goals. In general life, absolutely, I'll agree with most or maybe even all statements. I wouldn't even find them particularly controversial. Communication can be as important as technical skills - sure, I live that every day. We need to understand privilege, and enable everybody - absolutely. True on vast majority of projects in vast majority of contexts I've been part of. Etc But not all: If (for an extreme example) the context is a small highly proficient working group and goal is an unprecedented technical achievement, majority of these are either unproductive or counterproductive to the goal and the context. If you have three people in the world that understand math to accomplish this project, and your goal is to accomplish this project, you need to involve at least one of the three people in this project - their background, communication skillset, and other aspects notwithstanding. So stating goals is I find critical in evaluating methods to accomplish those goals.

to_bpr 8y ago

Another thing infested by, and in the process of being destroyed by, identity politics. What a shame.

navane 8y ago

I would like to see a scatter diagram with 'technical contribution' on one axis and 'CoC contribution' on the other axis, for all people involved.

tao_oat 8y ago
If an improved CoC means that more people feel able and encouraged to contribute, does that then count in favor of the 'technical contribution' axis for the people who wrote it? If not, your plot isn't all that useful.
pavlov 8y ago
That's like using "List of black Nobel Prize winners before 1950" as evidence that IQ correlates with skin pigment.

arayh 8y ago

I feel that Linus makes a good role model in the sense that he has real-world communication problems that he both recognizes and is attempting to overcome. This is not an easy thing to do and a lot of people undermine this reality.

yashap 8y ago

His quotes about political correctness are pretty interesting. Basically that neo-Nazis have tried to brand themselves as “just practical people against excessive political correctness,” but really that’s just a facade covering their true hate and racism. But now, if you’re ACTUALLY just someone who’s against excessive political correctness, you risk being associated with neo-Nazis. I’d consider myself pretty left-wing - for compassion towards others, very strongly against racism, sexism and homophobia, very pro immigration and multiculturalism. Still, I do often find current levels of political correctness a bit much - like if someone uses he/she, they’re almost never intentionally being anti-trans, so who cares? Or simply many on the left flying into outrage too easily. But it’s hard to express these views now, because neo-Nazis have been putting up this facade of “just against political correctness,” when in fact there’s real hate behind it. And now many on the left take any deviance from political correctness to indicate a neo-Nazi. Not a great situation, and certainly not one that encourages people to have productive conversations/disagreements.

tomlock 8y ago
Have you personally, in real life, encountered many people who were "outraged" by you using he/she?
- yashap 8y ago
  In “real life,” no, but on the internet, yes.
  - tomlock 8y ago
    So my assumption then since you've said "many on the left" fly to outrage too easily, is that you don't know many people in real life who are on the left. Is that accurate?
    - yashap 8y ago
      Very wrong, I’m quite left wing myself, as are most of my friends/family. I’m really not sure why you’re jumping to these conclusions based on my post. In terms of “real life” vs. internet, people are just a lot more reasonable in person, with minimal outrage. But online, especially on discussion boards, people are constantly flying into outrage.

pytyper2 8y ago

There are a lot of us like Linus. The easy solution is not emotional counseling, it's an assistant/editor who can tone down his public comments. This is not a new problem.

maxxxxx 8y ago
True. Have someone do a quick check before sending. "Do you really want to say it that way?"

davidkuhta 8y ago

Anyone else get a chuckle that out of the myriad of relevant quotes, the author selected, "He... once [described] an Intel fix as 'complete and utter garbage'". Good for Linus, I'm happy that he's not looking to adjust his technical expectations: "technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

mcguire 8y ago
They could have taken a quote from 2012: ""...should be retroactively aborted. Who the f+ck does idiotic things like that? How did they not die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?""
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kyberias 8y ago
  That is just super funny. It always will be.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - mcguire 8y ago
    It is, absolutely. If you view software development as entertainment. If you view it asa profession, maybe not.
    - kyberias 8y ago
      Not true. The fact that professional software developer sometimes uses profane language does not mean it is not funny. I think Linus was actually trying to be funny with those statements. Some of us understand that humor, some of us don't.

l8again 8y ago

Here we go normalizing verbal abuses to just "not being polite enough". This culture is now so pervasive in our industry that people are wearing their rudeness to their fellow coworkers as a badge of honor. I have seen incredibly meek guys on the outside turn into monsters as soon as they get into their roles of lead devs or tech leads. Repeat after me - "Kindness is cool."

zakm 8y ago
I'm sure what you're talking about happens (although I personally haven't seen it). What also happens is that cultural differences lead to two people having different perceptions of the same event. One views it as "honest and blunt" and the other views it as "rude." I think a lot of the pushback comes from people who have personally delivered things they view as "honest and blunt" and have had others say that they are being "rude" or "mean-spirited," and they view things like this CoC as a push by the thin-skinned to institutionalizing niceness at the expense of honesty.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
There's a huge difference between being 'very frank' and being a true douche. Both can be perceived as jerkoff but I think only the later really counts as that. As far as 'meek guys' turning to jerks with a taste of power - it's very common for all types. Without going into my background I had a chance to witness 100's of young people come into, and go out of power. Almost everyone 'over identifies' with their power when they first get it. It takes 'coming out of power' to have self reflection and awareness about it. Tragically - so many people in their careers just go 'up' the power ladder and never develop any awareness. It takes going 'down' or 'laterally' a few notches to really internalize the lessons. The situation I was in, I witnessed a lot of 'power rotation' i.e. people taking turns being lead/manager. It was a really, really powerful thing. Though this was not in high tech and a completely different field, not sure it would work in tech.
- jlawson 8y ago
  I'd love to read more about what you've seen with power rotation, with any specifics or stories you could give. It's not something I've heard before.

alfredmuffin 8y ago

I question the professional experience of those suggesting that continuing to be an asshole is the preferable situation here ("but at least he's HONEST"). That would simply not fly at my company. It is absolutely possible to be kind when giving honest and constructive feedback and criticism. Empathy is a skill this industry needs to develop.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> That would simply not fly at my company. Sure, but that's a terrible example because a lot of what goes on in companies is more about appearance than substance.
- alfredmuffin 8y ago
  Can't speak for others, but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness. Naturally, the individuals who argued against these changes were older white male engineers too ingrained in their ways.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    > but at my large tech company the push for empathy has demonstrably increased employee happiness That says nothing bout the efficacy of the policy in terms of getting things done though. It is true that it is usually possible to be honest without being abrasive, however it is my experience that abrasive honesty is worth a lot more than polite dishonesty when it comes to getting things done. So in that way, "at least he's honest" makes sense.
    - alfredmuffin 8y ago
      Employee happiness is directly correlated with productivity.

ritchiea 8y ago

The idea of faking it until you make it is exactly what Linus needs. Most of the point of communication is for the other person, especially giving feedback on patches. We all need to vent but we shouldn't vent at the people below us in an organization. Venting is for a counselor, and maybe a close peer? And it's ok if he's frustrated with people, he just shouldn't take it out on them. Maybe he could find someone to get his own frustrations out to, while only sharing the productive, practical code related aspects with his developers.

Nasrudith 8y ago
Personally I consider fake it until you make it an incredibly dangerous ideal. That is how you get the Great Leap Forward, Banzai Charges, and Theranos. It leads to far too many delusions that become the seeds of downfall. Better to say in the case of Theranos state that the initial idea is proving non-viable but we have assembled a good talent base in biotech. We technically could liquidate the existing investment but that wouldn't work well for recovering the assets. We can pivot to find tests that do work on fingertip blood other than existing glucose or other areas of research instead would have kept Holmes out of prison and potentially gotten a success out of it. Failure happens and an honest postmortem with a way forward is better than going ponzi.
- digitaLandscape 8y ago
  It takes a special kind of motivated stupidity to project from Linus' statement to Theranos. Stop trolling.
  - scrollaway 8y ago
    Holy hell, watch the aggression. The person you're replying to is addressing the specific "fake it till you make it" statement, not "Linus". Your post and attitude are completely inappropriate.
- ritchiea 8y ago
  It is quite a stretch to compare making yourself be kind to a colleague or underling despite your own frustrations with defrauding investors.

tomlock 8y ago

Does anyone else find it weird how so many people can think Linus is utterly brilliant and thoughtful, can agree with him on almost everything he's done and said up to this point, but fall back on the belief that he's been conspired against and corrupted when he says things like: > "...I may have my reservations about excessive political correctness, but honestly, I absolutely do not want to be seen as being in the same camp as the low-life scum on the internet that think it's OK to be a white nationalist Nazi, and have some truly nasty misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic behaviour. And those people were complaining about too much political correctness too, and in the process just making my public stance look bad. > "And don't get me wrong, please - I'm not making excuses for some of my own rather strong language. But I do claim that it never ever was any of that kind of nastiness. I got upset with bad code, and people who made excuses for it, and used some pretty strong language in the process. Not good behaviour, but not the racist/etc claptrap some people spout. > "So in the end, my 'I really don't want to be too PC' stance simply became untenable. Partly because you definitely can find some emails from me that were simply completely unacceptable, and I need to fix that going forward. But to a large degree also because I don't want to be associated with a lot of the people who complain about excessive political correctness." I dunno, maybe if he was being brilliant and thoughtful for all those years, he's still... being brilliant and thoughtful now?

krapp 8y ago
Unfortunately, we've come to the point in online discourse where any form of self-restraint or politeness is seen by some as excessive political correctness, and accepting any form of nuance is giving in to SJW propaganda.

kristianc 8y ago

I think this comes across as incredibly nuanced and thoughtful. Often we only see the outer surface of what people are actually like, and make judgments on their character based on that.

Vinnl 8y ago

His feelings about two of the "sides" of this argument are so recognisable. I'm generally in favour of going out of my way e.g. to make minorities feel more welcome to compensate for the natural tendency to make them feel less welcome. However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. In effect, they're really counterproductive, and the only reason Linus is now openly on "their side" (for lack of a term that better describes what I mean), is because the "other side" also was really nasty, pushing him away from them. It took a while for me to realise what privileges I have had that some others have not. The first step to realising that was being open to that even being possible, and shouting contests do not encourage that. I'd love it if Linus' approach here would lead to less-heated discussions and actual insights on the subject, but the hate and vitriol I've seen spewed in his direction after his announcement doesn't make me hopeful...

werid 8y ago
> However, the nastiness of some of the people in "my camp" pushes me away from it and makes me reluctant to openly support that cause. Doesn't sound like you actually supported the cause if you can be pushed away from it like that.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- cirgue 8y ago
  "If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" is a load of nonsense in any context, and doubly so in politics.
  - chooseaname 8y ago
    > "If you don't love me at my worst, you can't have me at my best" Said every wife beater who ever lived.
    - Something1234 8y ago

RVuRnvbM2e 8y ago

> Because I may have my reservations about excessive political correctness, but honestly, I absolutely do not want to be seen as being in the same camp as the low-life scum on the internet that think it's OK to be a white nationalist Nazi, and have some truly nasty misogynistic, homophobic or transphobic behaviour. And those people were complaining about too much political correctness too, and in the process just making my public stance look bad. > ... > But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. So the obnoxious Manosphere who are the most (only?) vocal critics of the new CoC forced his hand in the first place. How fittingly ironic.

yosefzeev 8y ago

I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. I will be keeping my eyes peeled for alternatives that understand the division between spiritual beliefs and "forced agreement with an assertion by participation" that uses religious terminology that has quite a different meaning to me. So far, hurd and is promising.

krapp 8y ago
>I don't need my computer tools to define my political/spiritual beliefs. In fact, I think Torvalds adopting something like this in relation to Linux is a deep betrayal of a hacker ethos. A "hacker ethos" is a political belief.
- yosefzeev 8y ago
  It is but you don't need an OS to define it.
  - krapp 8y ago
    But it seems as if the politics being discussed here apply to the project and its contributors, it's not as if a Code of Conduct is being applied to you, the end user. Unless they add something political to the license itself, I don't see why it would matter.
    - yosefzeev 8y ago
      If it doesn't matter, why is Linus making it an issue?
      - eropple 8y ago
        Oh, heck, I don't know. Maybe because he realizes he's been pissing in the pool, that others are also pissing in the pool, that nobody should be pissing in the pool, and the first step to creating a social understanding of "don't piss in the pool" is to put up a sign to that effect. Or maybe it's the evil, mustachio-twirling social justice warriors, somehow hectoring a project worth billions of dollars to its component contributors into listening to little old them. That is equally as plausible.

scott_s 8y ago

Something I don't think he has internalized yet is that it's not about "politeness" or "cursing." It's about abuse, which is still possible while being polite and without cursing.

kyberias 8y ago
Have you internalized that cursing is not necessarily abuse? Linus has basically just being angry to people and cursed.
- scott_s 8y ago
  Insulting people based on the work they produce is abuse.
  - kyberias 8y ago
    Dictionary definition for abuse is: "treat with cruelty or violence, especially regularly or repeatedly." I don't think Linus has ever treated anyone with cruelty or violence. Saying to someone "shut up" or that their specific work item is garbage, is not abuse.
    - scott_s 8y ago
      Linus regularly and repeatedly was cruel to people when he perceived they made mistakes. Examples of his behavior are easy to find, and widely cited in any discussion on HN about it.
      - kyberias 8y ago
        No, he wasn't cruel to people. If someone makes a mistake and one reacts to that with strong language is not cruel. It's actually love. People make stupid mistakes. Making them and everyone else understand that certain stuff is not acceptable is important. Was it absolutely necessary or optimal to react that strongly? No. But not cruel.

igtztorrero 8y ago

The root cause is the asperger syndrome AD that all good programer has. In our company have the same issue, coders we are so bad and cruel with sales and support departmants, they are not at our "level" this causes a lot of problems.

mfrw 8y ago

tl;dr > "Will everybody be happy? No. People who don't like my blunt behaviour even when I'm not being actively nasty about it will just see that as 'look, nothing changed'. I'm trying to get rid of my outbursts, and be more polite about things, but technically wrong is still technically wrong, and I won't start accepting bad code just to make people feel better about themselves."

gambler 8y ago

>But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing. And here is a perfect example of why so many people are alarmed by his CoC adoption. This. The idea that community leaders must make institutional changes to signal that they - personally - arent's "the disgusting underbelly of the internet". Pause and think about it.

richard_todd 8y ago
Yeah that’s what stood out to me when I read it, as well. Everything was sounding reasonable, and then he gets to this part I read as: “my anti-PC position was untenable because bad people are also anti-PC and I don’t want to be associated with them.” That’s just not a viable way to operate. I’m sure some of the most vile people on the planet use Linux... should he stop to avoid being associated with them? Besides, if your motivation is not liking when people compare you to a Nazi, then Godwin’s law says you can’t win no matter how hard you try. The lack of objective measures he referenced early in the article will allow his accusers to shift their criteria at will.
iliketosleep 8y ago
Actually, is this an example of what they call "virtue signaling"?
- bluntfang 8y ago
  It's not virtue signaling because there's actually action behind the words. If there was just a statement without change or action, it would be virtue signaling.
  - iliketosleep 8y ago
    Thank you. I get it now. It's one of those terms I'd heard often but never completely understood.

notacoward 8y ago

IMO the most interesting part - especially relative to the discussions I've seen right here - is near the end. "But if people at least realise that I'm not part of the disgusting underbelly of the internet that thinks it's OK to show the kind of behaviour you will find if you really have been reading up on the 'discussions' about the code of conduct, then even that will be a really good thing." Yes indeed, if you look at many of the anti-CoC comments (e.g. in the "killswitch" thread) you get to see a lot of that underbelly. There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. The other alternative is for an even bigger bully to keep them in line, but I shouldn't need to explain how "might makes right" is even more problematic. Linus is deliberately stepping away from that bigger-bully role to give the alternative a try, but in the above excerpt he makes it pretty clear that he thinks there's a problem to be addressed. The creeps should consider themselves on notice, whether there's a CoC or not.

adamrezich 8y ago
>There are people who will oppose any kind of general rule restraining behavior, because that would prevent them from exercising their own more personal and arguably more subtle kind of coercion against those they don't like for whatever reason. Do you really, truly believe this is the reason why so many people are against Codes of Conduct in open-source projects? Can you point me to this mass of disillusioned bigots, expressing frustration at their inability to continue to act bigoted while within proximity to open-source? Either you've been going to wildly different parts of the Internet than I have recently, or your understanding of the side of the argument opposite you is based on a practically-nonexistent strawman, which is causing you to be completely unable to understand where "the other side" is actually coming from.
- scrollaway 8y ago
  I've generally been against CoC in less-than-huge projects for practical reasons (as a founder and leader of several communities, both in FOSS and outside of software, I have my informed opinion on what works to maintain good community health). I can attest that the people GP refers to exist, but it's more complicated than that. Codes of Conduct are established sometimes without a problem actually existing in the community in question, which raises the implication that the community hasn't been welcoming thus far (and often enough, that's wrong). They're also often seen as a way to legitimize a "we can silence you for any reason we choose" behaviour that is far too frequent in community moderators. This is all very context-dependant. Point is there are legitimate concerns over codes of conduct. Unfortunately, those concerns disproportionally affect the category of nasty people mentioned in GP, and that category gets way more defensive and, since this is the internet, tends to jump into these issues even when they're not part of the community in question and hijacking the topic. ... and since this is the internet, this also happens on the pro-CoC side. Which basically results in 95% outside noise on both sides of any sensitive topic that happens to catch public wind. It's super easy to point to nasty people on both sides of the issue. It's also very easy to get radicalized by seeing how nasty the "other side" is and becoming part of the problem. And those getting caught in that filter tend not to, as you say, "understand where the other side is coming from". ---- Edit: Downvotes are very telling of the behaviour I describe, btw. This post has gone between -3 and +3 and back without a single reply. It's not about discussion, it's just about whether people think I'm part of their "camp". No room for mixed arguments.

qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago

No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. If that person doesn't like working with someone, that's their problem and they should work elsewhere. I'm sick of this SJW stuff.

ceejayoz 8y ago
I'd avoid changing myself over one random person's opinion. If a large number of people held the same opinion about me, and that group contained numerous people whose opinions I tend to respect and agree with, I might consider the possibility that I'm not perfect and work to better myself.
- qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago
  Let me nail down my point. If a certain group of people with a similar social or political ideology doesn't like me, I'm not changing. That's what this is all about. Edit: To discount all that LT has done and to what extent his work that de facto runs almost everything - is naive.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    > To discount all that LT has done As far as I can determine, literally no one is doing this.
qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago
And here come the SJW downvotes - you people are so predictable.
jacobmoe 8y ago
> No one should ever - EVER - change because of someone else's opinion of them. That's ridiculous. Every one of us changes our behavior because of someone else's opinions of us. It's the central mechanism for how humanity has been cooperating since the very beginning. Anyone who claims to not care about others opinions of them is likely trying to be liked by the kind of person who thinks it's cool to not care about others opinions. Every word you say is a virtue signal - you want others to think you're smart, to think you're good, to think you're the kind of person they should coorperate with. The only time you're not virtue signaling is when you're listening.

ayyyyylmao2000 8y ago

Linus had to step away likely because some paid agent gained dirt on him (I wouldn't be surprised if hired by Intel). Eventually, some woman may have had five minutes alone with him, where nothing happened, but enough time to be able to slander him if she so wishes. And having a family, he had to step back to avoid damage. As a reminder, both Linus and his second in-command Tso have rejected numerous backdoor attempts by Intel. This Code-of-Conduct debacle is a political weapon to expel the original contributors of open-source projects who pose an obstacle to multinational technology corporations. Linux was developed in a mailing list with complete anonymity. Race or religion are only brought into play if someone decides to provide personal details. The more interesting thing is that on Reddit, all discussion about this was censored. Furthermore, to top it off, the individual responsible for this public witch hunt has been caught tweeting on how glorious it is that developers of Linux will start going out en mass. https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controversy-1252/ https://lulz.com/linux-devs-threaten-killswitch-coc-controve... EDIT: to the down-voting shills, please do provide constructive commentary on this idea, valid as any other.

matz1 8y ago

I don't understand, what forced him to have to change his behavior? As far as i know he has the highest authority of linux kernel. To me he his kind of guy who can say fuck you, my way or highway. Which i admire that.

panzagl 8y ago
Because he knows it's only a matter of time until someone grabs an email of his from 1998 and uses it as the centerpiece of a twitter shitstorm.

ericdykstra 8y ago

The "Contributor Covenant" is just the method of covert conquest of open source projects by people who have never contributed to them. It's possible to have a Code of Conduct without giving it the power to be a selectively-used cudgel written and pushed by people who want to do just that. For example, I think the Ruby Community Conduct Guideline is a great document: https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/ https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/conduct/

7000skeletons 8y ago
I've never read Ruby's Conduct Guidelines before, but they look really well-suited to open source projects. Short, simple, to the point.

throwaway456321 8y ago

Unbelievable that a man who has given as much to the industry as Torvalds, for relatively little reward, is forced to take part in this self-abasement.

doktrin 8y ago

Fair enough, honestly. As someone who's broadly sympathetic to his managerial style, I totally understand the desire to distance himself from those in the 'underbelly of the internet' who use an 'anti PC / SJW' stance to (poorly) mask their own bigotry.

conradfr 8y ago

To the person who said (since deleted or moderated) that Linus changed because "they" had dirt on him : his daughter signed the "Post-Meritocracy Manifesto" and is into "intersectional feminism" so I think a more pragmatic answer is that she convinced him to change.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
There's no need for intersectionalism in this at all. In fact, I'd argue it's wrong. Intersectionalism would argue that peoople of different backgrounds must have special treatment. There's no need for that whatsoever. All we need is for people to not personally attack or demean others. After that ... people should be free to be more 'candid' at the possibly cost of upsetting someone, or more 'sensitive' at the possibly cost of the message being lost in sugar coating as they feel suited. Linus can be harsh as long as it's valid criticism of a subject (or maybe big corp), not a person. Beyond that he's fully within his rights to say whatever. He does not need to treat people different given whatever background they have.

mishurov 8y ago

How will Linux ever recover? I want kernel to be based and red-pilled.

another-cuppa 8y ago

I guarantee this will not increase kernel quality, nor will it increase the number of contributions from women.

aembleton 8y ago
Why not?

mike22223333 8y ago

I'm probably a person with not so great social skills. I'm a person of color. I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture. All of a sudden this movement to add "diversity" and other crap is just not right. I agree there is some casual racism/racism for the sake of racism in the community, but I am personally not even bothered and it has never affected me (I ignored them and they stopped and some of them now are my close friends). When I joined the industry, I felt a bit unwelcome, but just in a months no problem was ever there. I saw that people had a different culture then me, so I just over few months I adapted the same culture subconsciously. The maintainers should always value merit over "diversity" or "women in tech" agendas and other stupid similar things. We're not a playground for your political agendas. My personal contributions have been blocked several times, but it never bothered me. I did what I loved, and my contributions were committed after trying for a few times. Instead of wondering why my commits weren't merged and blaming on xenophobia/racism/fascism/blameism/bla bla bla , I decided to look at the patterns of commits that were successfully accepted. Every community has a different culture so if you cannot adopt what everyone is following, maybe this industry is not right for you.

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
>I do not need SJW's to defend me. Please do not destroy our culture. All the SJW issues are like that, a group of people who feel they need to defend someone else. Like these people have solved all their own problems and can move on to "helping" everyone else. I'm not going to get too fired up about it. But... I really cringe when I read "We're trying to change the predominately white face of programming". But, they aren't saying they'll do that by promoting people of color, or by opening a new distro that designed to be contributed more by people focused on social justice. IDK... At some point I wonder why the color of my skin is so important to the people "trying to help". edit: LOL shy downvotes. Because you can't tell me my skin color or physical features are important to my work - but you can't say that's not what this is all about either. Hackernews is becoming more and more like reddit :(
- 13years 8y ago
  The problem is this entire ideology is paradox. Improving inclusivity through exclusivity filters. Being accepting of everyone by closely monitoring all parameters of all individuals to determine if they should be accepted.

whiddershins 8y ago

The article literally quotes him out of context, then prints his full email showing they quoted him out of context, and hopes you won’t notice???? He didn’t call the Linux community “a morass of nastiness" ... he was referring to Twitter mobs. How could the article get that so wrong?

JohnBooty 8y ago

> I'm still not exactly the most empathetic person. > But I'm hoping I can at least 'fake it until I > make it'. This is great! If you ask me, "faking it" is really just as good as "actually" being a more helpful or empathetic person. What do you think "actually" being a helpful or empathetic person is like? It's basically just continually expending the effort to be helpful and empathetic. Let's say my brother calls me up on a Saturday morning. He needs help moving some furniture. Do I really feel like doing that? Fuuuuuuuuuck no. Will I say "yes" anyway? Probably, because even though I'd rather play tennis or sleep or play video games I want to help him. So I will consciously expend the effort to go do the good thing for him. Am I being "actually" good there or am I just "faking it"? I don't really think there's a difference. Nobody really wants to spend a day off moving furniture for free. Same thing with reviewing a pull request. I am not known as a caustic reviewer, but that's because I spend the effort to try and make sure I'm not caustic. What is the difference between me consciously expending the effort and Linus consciously expending the effort? (I mean, y'know, besides Linus being 1000x more productive and talented than me) Is one of us more "authentic?" I would say there's no difference.

TAForObvReasons 8y ago
The best part was the next sentence: > Part of that 'faking it' is definitely going to be a filter on my outgoing emails That's about 95% of what people asked for over the decades. You can get your point across without incendiary language and belittling comments, and merely scanning for sensitive words is enough for most cases
- JohnBooty 8y ago
  FWIW - I don't know if there are FOSS implementations, but beyond simple word scanning (which I agree could be pretty effective!) there are also sentiment analysis tools out there.
taeric 8y ago
Depends entirely on how good you are at faking it. That is, if it can be easily seen that you are faking; then no, it is not as good. Not even close. Your brother scenario is silly. If someone calls and I don't want to help, but can. I'll be honest and make my own choice. If they ask if this is what I'd truly like to be doing, I'll always say no. However, in most cases, I don't actually care what I'm doing. Could I come up with something more fun? Maybe, but just being social in any way is typically its own ends.

modzu 8y ago

damn. we need more linus, not less.

wayne_skylar 8y ago

This is something that has always bothered me about Linus. There are other extremely gifted programmers out there that don't seem to need to resort to this kind of persona. I always enjoyed hearing John Carmack speak because he is extremely smart and knowledgable and he doesn't look like he has a superiority complex. But the real problem with Linus is the example he sets. I am not a kernel dev, so I don't know the validity of his rants but I assume he is mostly right. But this certainly sends a message to less-talented developers that it's okay to be a dick when you are right. Ultimately I feel that the most important thing I have learned as a developer is to never associate your ego with your code. I've done that in the past and take great pains to not repeat it. Don't look at your PR as some great work of art that should be perfect. If both sides of the code review treat it as a collaborative process then you can both learn something from it.

Boulth 8y ago
Note that Linus has to deal with a lot of random people on the mailing list while Carmack doesn't have this kind of job. Also, I don't think Linus has superiority complex, although I don't know him personally. I guess it's just a classic example of technical person that has weak soft skills.
ordu 8y ago
What really bothers me, it when people start to speak about someone who "sends message", "sets wrong example" and so on. It bothers me, when people think about others, like they are less intelligent. If you can see, that Linus's behaviour is wrong and shouldn't be followed, why do you think, that other could not see it? It is because all others are stupid children and they need to be led to the right direction, isn't it? You know, I'm russian, and I see a lot of this thinking around me, all the deeply patriotic and deeply religious people around me thinks like that. "We should restrict access to internet, for others do not get information they are too stupid to understand properly". I hate it, and probably extra-sensitive for such a thinking, and it really bothers me when I see it. I can suggest different way of thinking: if Linus's behaviour is wrong, then it gives you endless opportunity to illustrate your point with real world examples. You can compare Carmack with Torvalds because Torvalds exists and being himself.

smoothy2 8y ago

The only functional change out of this whole drama is that now every project will eventually come to be run by SJWs. Looks like the main change that the COC will introduce from previous status quo is that anyone anytime can be Brendan Eiche'd out of an open source project whereas previously the understanding was that you could accept code contribution from Alex Jones himself as long as the code contribution to project itself was reasonable. Edit: I should add that I'm a non-white person. Shameful that adding this piece of information might bring some more credibility to my input.

ryandrake 8y ago

I’m all for civility, but we (tech culture, primarily Silicon Valley) are starting to move past civility, towards expecting everyone to self-censor and walk around on eggshells in order to avoid even potentially offending someone. I’ve worked with my share of unpleasant assholes, and am glad that professional, civil conversation is back on the menu, but the pendulum is still swinging. Worried about where it will end up.

luord 8y ago

As someone who doesn't give a damn about other people so I treat everyone (except family and the few friends I have) with the same curtness, here's hoping what Linus said here is just an "extra mile" thing (but even that sets a not necessarily good example). I never insult anyone, but I'm also never friendly to anyone, beyond a perfunctory smile when buying something from a cashier for example. I'm similarly short on text. Linus saying that he could be more polite tells me that even that is not "PC" enough and, if so, that's a problem. Nobody is owed any friendliness or niceness, just acknowledgement, and even that only if the other person needs us. In short, I thought he just needed to stop insulting people, but that that aside, there was no problem with his communication, apparently that's not the general consensus. Or I'm hoping I'm reading the situation wrong.

dbuder 8y ago

I think it's a pity he has been made to kowtow, I hope it doesn't diminish his productivity, some of his behaviour was bad but I'm always willing to give rockstars a pass up until a point. Things are in a different phase for OSS and Linus and maybe it won't affect him.

gwbas1c 8y ago

I'm far from perfect and have made plenty of poor comments. IMO, these happen when there is an underlying organizational problem. It's not tolerance of bad behavior that's the problem, tolerance of bad behavior just means that the organization is unwilling to address the real problems. In my direct experience, I was part of an organization that didn't train newcomers in process or define clear divisions of labor. The organization made no effort to accommodate it's need for uninterrupted programmer time. As the organization fixed its management problems, I got less feedback about these kind of remarks. It also helped that when these kinds of remarks happen, management realized it is not doing its part to direct the organization well.

devit 8y ago

I think the explanation for Linus' behavior is this: when he looks at works that he believes are technically wrong, he's probably displeased, frustrated and afraid that other contributions with the same technical issues might go through unnoticed. As a result, he sometimes insults the code and the person, probably because that relieves those negative emotions, "compensates" for the pain he had to endure reviewing the technically wrong work and makes his opinion as loud as possible so that the likelihood that other contributions have the same issues is minimized. The solution is for him to be more emotionally accepting of the fact that some people are technically less skilled and some contributions are not well done and just accept the negative feelings without having to insult others to compensate, while also expressing better when he feels that a mistake should be carefully avoided in the future as it might otherwise happen again.

rick22 8y ago

Its confusing. Linus is ok to have the post-meritocratic COC at the same time will not accept the code that is low quality code. So he is saying you can have all the COC but i will not follow it.

greenhatman 8y ago

We couldn't have hoped for a better outcome, I think. This is the perfect outcome.

SocialPath 8y ago

This Code of Conduct is just a power grab. But none of you nerds seem to get it. Which is understandable, since nerds don't understand social dynamics and power structure.