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I get all the hate for Oracle the company, but they've taken the time to systematically open source every closed source thing they've had: JFR, ZGC, GraalVM (pa

I get all the hate for Oracle the company, but they've taken the time to systematically open source every closed source thing they've had: JFR, ZGC, GraalVM (partially), and finally the crown jewel the TCK. They've even been involved in getting the open community up and running. I sincerely can't imagine what more you could want from a corporate steward.

Ygg2 8y ago
> I sincerely can't imagine what more you could want from a corporate steward. To generally not try to pull the rug from under you by changing licenses?
- jerven 8y ago
  This was not pulling the rug from under you. This was them clearly stating they where going to pull the rug, you ignoring all their shouts, signs and warnings and then blundering. I think the onus is on us for not reading and listening.
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    Meanwhile .NET Core is MIT Licensed and the language spec for C# is still standardized and open to re-implement (hence something like Vala is possible). If you didn't want to drink Microsoft's koolaid it's free as in free beer and as in freedom, can't say the same about Oracles.
    - solarkraft 8y ago
      Can you explain how Vala builds on C#?
      - giancarlostoro 8y ago
        It's mostly inspired by the syntax of C# but the spec of C# is standardized so I could see them or someone else going further with it. The real value in C# is the underlying stack aka the .NET Framework that gives you all the tools and toys to get things done.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      .NET Core is a nice step from Microsoft, but even 2.1 still only supports a fraction of .NET enterprise software, let alone Java comparable software solutions and host platforms.
      - giancarlostoro 8y ago
        We're roughly what 3 years in? It's to be expected, but what it does currently support is fairly impressive. Having used ASP .NET Core on a couple of projects I would say it covers enough for web development, right after Python I'd much rather do web development in C# as a result. I do agree though it isn't a completed product yet, but what's already there is fairly capable depending on what you're working on.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        It is impressive, and I do spend most of my time on it, but there is still lots of work to be done. .NET 3.0 will close the gap, but there are lots of .NET Framework features that aren't even on the migration roadmap. Enterprise stacks are a different animal than plain web sites, where integration between existing platforms plays a major role. The likes of SAP, Oracle, Rational, Enterprise Architect and similar software are not yet there.
    - saturn_vk 8y ago
      You are thinking of Mono. Vala is a completely different language
      - giancarlostoro 8y ago
        Mono recreates the framework, I'm thinking of the syntax of C# not the run-time.
    - filomeno 8y ago
      Well, OpenJDK is also free in both ways, GPL licensed, so I don't think there's any difference.
- pron 8y ago
  The change of license was closed source -> open source. It's legitimate that you don't like open source but still, how is that "pulling the rug"?
CaptainZapp 8y ago
I sincerely can't imagine what more you could want from a corporate steward. A different business model than suing their customers?
- threeseed 8y ago
  They are only suing customers who refuse to pay licensing fees or remove offending software. Don't forget many of their customers are pretty dodgy/incompetent also.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    They are only suing customers who refuse to pay licensing fees or remove offending software https://www.businessinsider.com/oracles-cloud-sales-2015-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/oracles-cloud-sales-2015-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-customer-explains-audit-threats-2015-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-customer-explains-aud... Enterprise licensing is extremely complex. Add to that that vendors often play hardball with customers. If I, as a vendor, want to find you in breach of the licensing agreement. I will. Source: I worked for a database vendor and was stunned about the dirty tricks pulled in enterprise software sales.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    > They are only suing customers who refuse to pay licensing fees or remove offending software. That's the point: they are suing users because they demand those users pay licensing fees. What other programming language and/or software stack comes with that risk?
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Delphi, Common Lisp, C, C++, .NET, Smalltalk, SQL Server, Informix, DB 2, Informix, Rational, WebSphere, IBM i, IBM z, ClearPath, Aix, HP-UX,INTEGRITY OS,..... Basically any software stack sold with a commercial license.
      - scarface74 8y ago
kodablah 8y ago
> but they've taken the time to systematically open source Most of that is so they could wash their hands from the maintenance burden. > finally the crown jewel the TCK Can you give me more info here? I heard about EE, but I was not aware the full Java TCK (i.e. the one denied to Apache Harmony) is completely open now. > I sincerely can't imagine what more you could want from a corporate steward Simple, don't try to profit from the language itself. Imagine a commercial Go version, or imagine if some AOT parts of the .Net compiler were part of an enterprise edition, or imagine if a test suite for WASM compliance were selectively given only to some, etc.

Ygg2 8y ago

> I sincerely can't imagine what more you could want from a corporate steward. To generally not try to pull the rug from under you by changing licenses?

jerven 8y ago
This was not pulling the rug from under you. This was them clearly stating they where going to pull the rug, you ignoring all their shouts, signs and warnings and then blundering. I think the onus is on us for not reading and listening.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  Meanwhile .NET Core is MIT Licensed and the language spec for C# is still standardized and open to re-implement (hence something like Vala is possible). If you didn't want to drink Microsoft's koolaid it's free as in free beer and as in freedom, can't say the same about Oracles.
  - solarkraft 8y ago
    Can you explain how Vala builds on C#?
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      It's mostly inspired by the syntax of C# but the spec of C# is standardized so I could see them or someone else going further with it. The real value in C# is the underlying stack aka the .NET Framework that gives you all the tools and toys to get things done.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    .NET Core is a nice step from Microsoft, but even 2.1 still only supports a fraction of .NET enterprise software, let alone Java comparable software solutions and host platforms.
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      We're roughly what 3 years in? It's to be expected, but what it does currently support is fairly impressive. Having used ASP .NET Core on a couple of projects I would say it covers enough for web development, right after Python I'd much rather do web development in C# as a result. I do agree though it isn't a completed product yet, but what's already there is fairly capable depending on what you're working on.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        It is impressive, and I do spend most of my time on it, but there is still lots of work to be done. .NET 3.0 will close the gap, but there are lots of .NET Framework features that aren't even on the migration roadmap. Enterprise stacks are a different animal than plain web sites, where integration between existing platforms plays a major role. The likes of SAP, Oracle, Rational, Enterprise Architect and similar software are not yet there.
  - saturn_vk 8y ago
    You are thinking of Mono. Vala is a completely different language
    - giancarlostoro 8y ago
      Mono recreates the framework, I'm thinking of the syntax of C# not the run-time.
  - filomeno 8y ago
    Well, OpenJDK is also free in both ways, GPL licensed, so I don't think there's any difference.
pron 8y ago
The change of license was closed source -> open source. It's legitimate that you don't like open source but still, how is that "pulling the rug"?

CaptainZapp 8y ago

I sincerely can't imagine what more you could want from a corporate steward. A different business model than suing their customers?

threeseed 8y ago
They are only suing customers who refuse to pay licensing fees or remove offending software. Don't forget many of their customers are pretty dodgy/incompetent also.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  They are only suing customers who refuse to pay licensing fees or remove offending software https://www.businessinsider.com/oracles-cloud-sales-2015-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/oracles-cloud-sales-2015-7 https://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-customer-explains-audit-threats-2015-9 https://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-customer-explains-aud... Enterprise licensing is extremely complex. Add to that that vendors often play hardball with customers. If I, as a vendor, want to find you in breach of the licensing agreement. I will. Source: I worked for a database vendor and was stunned about the dirty tricks pulled in enterprise software sales.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  > They are only suing customers who refuse to pay licensing fees or remove offending software. That's the point: they are suing users because they demand those users pay licensing fees. What other programming language and/or software stack comes with that risk?
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Delphi, Common Lisp, C, C++, .NET, Smalltalk, SQL Server, Informix, DB 2, Informix, Rational, WebSphere, IBM i, IBM z, ClearPath, Aix, HP-UX,INTEGRITY OS,..... Basically any software stack sold with a commercial license.
    - scarface74 8y ago

kodablah 8y ago

> but they've taken the time to systematically open source Most of that is so they could wash their hands from the maintenance burden. > finally the crown jewel the TCK Can you give me more info here? I heard about EE, but I was not aware the full Java TCK (i.e. the one denied to Apache Harmony) is completely open now. > I sincerely can't imagine what more you could want from a corporate steward Simple, don't try to profit from the language itself. Imagine a commercial Go version, or imagine if some AOT parts of the .Net compiler were part of an enterprise edition, or imagine if a test suite for WASM compliance were selectively given only to some, etc.