7 ms·
X1 Carbon 6th gen about 50% slower on Linux
- nixpulvis 8y agoAt first was prepared to be upset by this post (as a user of a 6th gen ThinkPad), but now I'm quite happy. I already knew about the thermal setting difference between Windows and Linux and I've been VERY irritated by the sleep state issue. I didn't know there was a BIOS update! Thank for the heads up.
- preek 8y agoYou’re very welcome^^
- garyfirestorm 8y agoI was considering buying this machine as opposed to the XPS 13 Dev edition. I'm a little disappointed to hear about this. Fast forward few years and more updates and we will see new issues which won't receive this sorta attention.
- jdhawk 8y agowell, the fix on the GitHub Repo also has the XPS 9370 listed...its just a config file change. https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix
- garyfirestorm 8y agoI'm more worried about the noise from headphone jack.
- nixpulvis 8y agoOMG I CAN CLOSE AND OPEN MY LAPTOP SCREEN! <3333
- Amygaz 8y agoCurrent 5th gen user, coming from a MacBook Air 2013, I can’t believe people think the thinkpad is a great laptop. Running Linux on this never even crossed my mind. (Edit: specified Mac vs thinkpad I don’t like)
- nixpulvis 8y agoAre you saying the Thinkpad is a bad laptop? I'm a bit confused. I also have the 5th edition (my first new Linux laptop) and I can't even begin to say how happy with it I've been. Setting up all my UIs and learning how to use Linux as a "User" not an "Administrator" has been a lot of fun. I now start the network instinctively with a quick terminal command (fish history is great). I quickly got used to (and now much prefer) a tiling window manager like i3. And above all, I've gotten used to the extra work of reading through changes to packages as they come in with Arch. This laptop feels "just right" as a recent Apple user. It's got that anti-apple vibe, without feeling like a crap piece of plastic. Now all Lenovo/Linux needs to do is match Apple's trackpad feel, and I'll call this is wash.
- lgunsch 8y agoI second this setup! I run Arch Linux on a Lenovo X1 Carbon 5th gen, I use i3 wm, and my shell is Fish. I've used Arch, i3, and Fish for about 4 years now.
- strzibny 8y agoI have it too, running Fedora on it. It's not my first Thinkpad but certainly the best (and overall best laptop I ever had).
- Brakenshire 8y agoX1 Carbon 5th gen is a fantastic laptop in my experience, the only thing I don’t like is the shallow keyboard, but that is the same for all laptops now.
- nixpulvis 8y agoYea, it's not the best... but WORLDS better than the new macbook so here I am.
- jopsen 8y agoWow, I guess the bios update came too late for me.. I returned my 6th gen and got my money back because I was unhappy with sleep state not working.
- Symmetry 8y agoIt's not unusual for things to still be getting sorted out on Linux a few months after a new laptop hits the market but to me this seems awfully late for these issues to not be sorted out yet. Didn't this laptop come out early in the spring?
- preek 8y agoI agree that this is typically the case and generally is totally OK! I was assuming that the issue has been fixed because BIOS version 1.28 said something about "power issues" that were fixed, but didn't go into detail. However, it's obviously still an issue - and I know of people who asked support weeks ago and haven't heard back, yet. So it's good to have a reminder out. The fix is rather easy to apply and it's worth it - considering the gains(; The 6th gen came out in January '18: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon#2018_%E2%80%93_6th_generation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_X1_Carbon#2018_%E2%80...
- Retr0spectrum 8y ago[comment complaining about low contrast text] Edit: I'm curious - this comment has a good number of upvotes, but it's sitting right at the bottom of the page, below greyed-out downvoted comments. Do moderators have a "super downvote" option or something? To be clear, I'm not complaining about moderation (this is a low quality comment), just curious exactly how this works.
- pbhjpbhj 8y agoTLDR - due to conservative temperature levels at which to initiate CPU throttling; and the article links to a fix (as well as saying sleep is fixed with a "BIOS" update).
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- carlivar 8y agoSo for those that don't do cpu intensive tasks on their laptop, there is no performance difference? Works for me.
- Retr0spectrum 8y agoIs this sarcasm? Why spend $$$$ on a laptop with a beefy CPU if you aren't going to use it?
- Brakenshire 8y agoA beefy CPU which quickly hits its thermal limit is pointless.
- Retr0spectrum 8y agoI'm not disagreeing with that.
- Brakenshire 8y agoThat often seems to be the case with ultrabook type laptops. They try to charge $100 more for a CPU you can only use for 2 minutes.
- ska 8y agoIt's true, beefy CPUs and laptops have some conflicting design goals.
- derekp7 8y agoThere are a fair number of tasks that can stress the CPU for short periods of time. But If I can turn an occasional 10 second task into a 3 second task, that is where a CPU that can throttle up temporarily really helps (things like generating crypto keys, or some short-burst javascript on some web sites). But for video transcoding that may take 3 hours, that's something I would do on a remote server anyway.
- carlivar 8y ago
- rayascott 8y agoWhat software is that on the right in the screenshots with the graphs? Anyone know?
- sandov 8y agoCan anyone point me to a good resource on updating the BIOS/firmware under Linux?. I know absolutely nothing about it, and it looks like the user has to manually do it. And the obvious question: How do Windows users do it? When they are even less knowledgeable than me (generally speaking).
- preek 8y agoThere are links in the article showing how to update the BIOS from Linux. It involves downloading the firmware (a couple of megabytes in a .cab file) and flashing that onto a USB stick from which you can boot. Windows users do it differently. The carbon has an auto-update service installed which will offer to update the BIOS when it finds a new version available.
- halfastack 8y agoThere was some unofficial tool to flash firmware on Linux. When I took my Carbon to IT, they just booted Windows off of an external SSD disk. Also, LVFS: https://fwupd.org/lvfs/component/1023/all https://fwupd.org/lvfs/component/1023/all <- to me, personally, this didn't work. I suspect it had to do with UEFI mode.
- nixpulvis 8y ago`man fwupdmgr` I ran the few commands in the link [1] and it worked just fine, lots of beeping scared my coworkers tho. Just don't forget to change the Power setting in your BIOS to Linux, as mentioned in the link as well. [1]: https://github.com/fiji-flo/x1carbon2018s3#via-lvfs https://github.com/fiji-flo/x1carbon2018s3#via-lvfs
- bubblethink 8y agoNewer laptops supported by fwupd (fwupd.org) are more straightforward on linux. For the older ones, you take their windows bios image, and use Geteltorito (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Flashing_BIOS_from_Linux https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Flashing_BIOS_from_Linu...). Windows users open an exe file.
- Thaxll 8y agoUsually you put the firmware file inside the UEFI partition and then update from the bios. It's very simple.
- Havoc 8y agoThat's an issue for sure, the logic here is pretty damn terrible though. For a <1 min test yeah it's slower. (Essentially a race from "cold" temp to the respective temp limits - the one has more runway). Run both at full throttle for 5 mins and I suspect you'll find they'll both perform equally (since they're both repeatedly bumping up against their respective thermal throttling). ...still shouldn't be happening at all though.
- preek 8y agoActually, it's exactly the same - and mentioned in the article. I ran the tests for 20min, as well. But then the screen shot of s-tui won't cover the whole length of the test, so I chose to show those screen shots while only mentioning that longer benchmarks perform exactly the same.
- jryan49 8y agoThings like this is one of the reasons why I gave up trying to put linux on laptops.
- Brakenshire 8y agoBeen running the 5th gen for 6 months with zero problems. In my experience, laptops that don’t have discrete graphics just work.
- jryan49 8y agoYeah I had an Acer before my two thinkpads that has discrete and it was a problem. This was also back in the day when X11 was actually kind of a pain to configure properly. Things are miles better today, but I think after 10 years of messing around with it all I just kind of got burnt out.
- cannonedhamster 8y agoNever had a problem with my Thinkpad or my System76 laptop. If something has Windows support directly it's not surprising that it it would run better than something done in the spare time of developers. I've never had terrible luck with any linux on laptops though, aside from the Macbook. What kinds of problems did you run into and on what types of laptops?
- jryan49 8y agoTwo think pads. They just didn't even come close to the battery life that Windows did. And I'm a very advanced used, been using Arch Linux since 2008, and have every part of my system tweaked. It just seemed like the hardware support and drivers weren't there. Specifically the T440s. I forget what model it was before that one. I'd also get suspend issues on both. I dumped a lot of time into it.
- mbell 8y agoThis should make for an interesting test of the level of anti-Apple group think out there as this is the same fundamental issue that caused the 2018 MBP fiasco. MBP power limit was set too high, this laptop has it set too low.
- nixpulvis 8y agoExcept, correct me if I'm wrong. Here it's much MUCH easier to fix/change yourself.
- mbell 8y agoIn the MBP case you just waited for ~7 days for the fix to be delivered to you automatically. In this case you figure out how to update your BIOS under linux which is often non-trivial and then figure out how to install this which has a bunch of caveats: https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix https://github.com/erpalma/lenovo-throttling-fix . There doesn't seem to be any indication what a 'real' fix is and whom is going to provide it. Which one is 'MUCH easier' is up to you.
- nixpulvis 8y agoDepending on others is an option for sure, just leaves you feeling rather powerless doesn't it?
- berbec 8y agoI'm all in with team penguin, but a windows 10 to go usb isn't that hard to make
- kjeetgill 8y agoHow well did Linux run out of the box on the new MacBooks on shipping day?
- RL_Quine 8y agoThey simply don't, and are unlikely to every comfortably do so due to how custom the hardware is getting (ie, the keyboard is a SPI device).
- desireco42 8y agoI actually think that having a cooler laptop is advantage and often I would like to be able to make the choice. So to me, this is not a bad thing, wish there was a setting where you can say how cool/hot you would allow your laptop to run.
- preek 8y agoActually there is - look at the last paragraph of the article. You can configure the max temperature for when you're connected to power and working on the battery.
- cannonedhamster 8y agoYou can write a script to check the CPU temps in linux and set the fans to kick on at different power levels for certain temps and just run it as a timer event. I did this for a Macbook I had Arch running on when it was running hotter than I liked.
- oever 8y agoCould you share your setup? There are so many tools available for tuning of power use and fans. It's hard to pick the right one. I'd prefer to run my laptop with as few fan activity as possible without overheating. So when the CPU gets too hot, clock it down instead of starting the fan.
- opcenter 8y agoI completely agree with that when I'm using the laptop unplugged, especially if it's on my lap and I want to get maximum battery life. However, if I'm sitting at a desk where it's plugged in I would like to get as much performance out of it as I can.
- angelsl 8y agoAs far as I understand, the thermal limit at 80C and TDP limit at 15W on Linux is what Lenovo actually intended, and the limits on Windows are broken. At least according to this Ubuntu maintainer: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1763144/comments/28 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1763144...
- nixpulvis 8y agoIn tomorrow's news: "Lenovo's recent BIOS patch reduces performance of 6th gen ThinkPads by up to 50%!"
- mooman219 8y agoNext week: "Lenovo doubles 6th gen ThinkPad performance in recent BIOS patch"
- bubblethink 8y agoThat seems like only half of the story. Earlier in that thread, there's this quote from lenovo: " Due to "DPTF" function will act on Windows system by BIOS/Driver support, the system will turn to cool mode when keep high temperature several minutes. But Linux system didn't have driver support DPTF function, it only have TDP limit on platform. So user should have different between Windows and Linux system as normal behavior." So lenovo is doing something conservative because DPTF isn't officially supported on linux. There seems to be a DPTF repo here: https://github.com/intel/dptf https://github.com/intel/dptf
- nikki93 8y agoThe T480s is a great alternative, been using it for a bit, no Linux issues at all. Works great with NixOS.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- archi42 8y agoI think ThinkPads are renown for the earlier products (eg T410 or the x200 series). Much like the Dell D630 used to be a Linux favourite. The BIOS sleep state issue seems common with modern Lenovos though (my 2nd Gen Helix is also a mess), which is a real shame because the hardware is great.
- jimnotgym 8y agoWhich is why I still use my T410 with Kubuntu as my home PC
- dfox 8y agoIt is funny how the definition of what is "the last true ThinkPad" shifts with time.
- berbec 8y agoUsed to be the E series. The the T60p. Then the x260. Soon The X1 Carbon Extreme will be the last jedi
- dfox 8y agoIt used to be "anything before letter-series", then T42, then X41, then T60, then X200... In essence the main thing that tends to shift is what is the "defining feature" of thinkpad. For T42 an X41 it was keyboard without windows keys and with textured trackpoint buttons, then it was 5-row keyboard and so on... Another point in regards to this is that at least for me the really good ThinkPads started with the letter series, which is also the time when IBM started to outsource both design and manufacture. And the difference is plainly visible with traditional IBM's overengineering (eg. 600E, which is supposed to be low-cost model, is pain to disassemble and contains two handfuls of various weird and wonderful machined aluminium brackets, mainframe-style) being replaced with design that meaningfully balances cost, reliability and serviceability.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y agoWell, they keep making new ones ...
- amluto 8y agoWait, what? From reading the git repos a bit, it seems that Lenovo and Intel have created some framework that is, in its default state, modifying the thermal MSRs every five seconds via SMI (presumably). Let that sink in. Somehow, rather than letting the CPU run with reasonable parameters and letting the EC control fans as needed, they are forcing the system into SMM (which interrupts everything on all cores) to fiddle with thermal parameters. And they want some ridiculous user space library (DPTF) to reconfigure this mess to actually do something sensible. WTF edit: Wow, the Intel code in question is hilariously enterprisey. Check this out: https://github.com/intel/dptf/blob/master/DPTF/Sources/Policies/ActivePolicy/ActivePolicy.cpp https://github.com/intel/dptf/blob/master/DPTF/Sources/Polic... and that repo is full of files like SuchAndSuchFacadeInterface.h. I swear that at least 95% of the code doesn’t do anything. Maybe 99%.
- nixpulvis 8y agoI'm not even surprised anymore. Just consistently horrified and considering a new line of work.
- m_mueller 8y agoI’ve looked at this code a bit and.... seems relatively straightforward to me. Am I too much used to enterprise code? Do you just mean the verbose naming?
- amluto 8y agoI mean the sheer amount of abstraction. On a brief inspection, this code essentially does: when temp > upper_threshold: turn fan on until temp < lower_threshold For a vendor-provided set of tuples (temperature, fan, upper_threshold, lower_threshold). And it’s not really clear whether the code is intended to handle the same temperature or fan occurring more than once. This logic could be written in maybe 100 lines of code if all the abstraction were removed, and that’s if full support for repeats is needed. Instead there are layers and layers of abstraction. Also, this code doesn’t belong in a user program or even on the main CPU at all. It belongs in the embedded controller.
- Bayart 8y agoOn an unrelated note, what's the monitoring software you've been using on the right ? It seems quite nice.
- mifix 8y agoIt is s-tui (https://github.com/amanusk/s-tui https://github.com/amanusk/s-tui).
- rickdg 8y agoWhy is AMD taking so long to beat up Intel and take their lunch money?