4 ms·

> Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of giving up. I f

> Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of giving up. I feel like this misses the point. I don't expect people to complain much about IP being stolen by competitors - that feels like an security/internal problem. The issue with China seems to be that they force partnerships with Chinese companies, resulting in western companies having to share their IP, and when that IP is used outside of the constraints of whatever contract was created and the western company complains, the Chinese government colludes with the Chinese company to stymie or exploit the western company as much as can be done without breaking the relationship. I'm also not going to say whether this is right or wrong - just that the feeling I get from the whole thing (as someone who doesn't follow this stuff that closely) is that the government efforts go beyond what others have done in the past (which I understand to be more subsidizing industries to boot them up).

simion314 8y ago
Can't the companies just not do business in China if they don't like the contract? Other countries have similar laws, like it forces companies to hire local people or spend part of the money locally. If China can afford to not respect the IP laws then there is nothing what a company can do, eventually the secrets would be reversed engineered.
- api 8y ago
  They do. This is part of why we have such a large trade deficit with China. The real issue here is China's double-talk on trade. They talk about open free trade but in reality they practice intense nationalistic and protectionist trade tactics. They do everything possible to prevent foreign companies from selling anything in China, while at the same time doing everything they can to attract foreign labor outsourcing, capital, and of course IP. I can't blame them too much. These kinds of trade policies are how nations build strong domestic economies. The US did the same thing during its industrialization phase. Nevertheless it's horrible for American workers and the American middle class. It's literally the only thing I agree with Trump about -- that China needs to be taken to task for its extremely aggressive trade policies.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Might makes right, and you can only take someone to task if you have the power to do so. The US (or at least owners of equity in the US) are too dependent on the cheap labor and lax environmental rules of China, otherwise there is no reason for the most powerful country in the world to let another country take "advantage" of them.
    - api 8y ago
      China is equally dependent on foreign infusions of capital. The real issue I think is that labor arbitrage has been very good for upper income and wealthy Americans. Corporations and the rich have gotten much richer by shipping labor off to China and paying less for it and pocketing the difference. That's largely why there has been no political will to challenge this situation.
      - lotsofpulp 8y ago
        I find it funny that it's also the previous generations' middle class' 401(k)s and pensions that need the investment returns provided by cheap chinese labor and lax environmental rules, while at the same time ruining the future for their descendants.
      - Fjolsvith 8y ago
        To me, the lack of political will to change has been akin to the local business owner being afraid to tell the local mafia boss he no longer needs protection.
  - firethief 8y ago
    Technology has stretched scarcity-based economics to the kind of breaking point where we complain when we get the iPhones and they get the sweatshops.
  - fellellor 8y ago
    Have you considered maybe American companies simply aren't competitive enough compared to the local players. American products are often too expensive because the companies want high dollar profits to show their shareholders, even if the cost of production, which is often outsourced, doesn't justify the high market price. Also, as time goes on the skills of the entire world population is being equalized. That is to say, the skilled labor market is becoming global. When that happens American workers and middle class simply can't keep enjoying the high wages that are currently prevalent. Unless of course, you want to start a new era of imperialism and force developing economies to confine themselves to the lower end of the value chain.
- bluGill 8y ago
  You can. However 1 billion potential customers are dangerous to ignore. It isn't just that they don't buy from you, it is that they buy from your competition - which can include a brand new company they start locally - which gives your competition enough cash to design their next version better than yours.
  - throwaway2048 8y ago
    Its not dangerous to ignore if it results in your entire IP portfolio getting expropriated and used to crush you. Its a siren song that is enabled by increased quarterly profits, even knowing full well the risks, it will be another CEO and board before they come home to roost.
    - bluGill 8y ago
      It is a double edge sword for sure.
taobility 8y ago
That's so called exchange the technology by the market. If you are in the condition of China, what will you do to avoid yourself always stay in the lower level manufacture status? Imagine that's you as a human being, are you willing to always do the low pay labor work, or learning the knowledge and experience from your colleague secretly as they not willing to share with you, then try to position yourself a better career path?

simion314 8y ago

Can't the companies just not do business in China if they don't like the contract? Other countries have similar laws, like it forces companies to hire local people or spend part of the money locally. If China can afford to not respect the IP laws then there is nothing what a company can do, eventually the secrets would be reversed engineered.

api 8y ago
They do. This is part of why we have such a large trade deficit with China. The real issue here is China's double-talk on trade. They talk about open free trade but in reality they practice intense nationalistic and protectionist trade tactics. They do everything possible to prevent foreign companies from selling anything in China, while at the same time doing everything they can to attract foreign labor outsourcing, capital, and of course IP. I can't blame them too much. These kinds of trade policies are how nations build strong domestic economies. The US did the same thing during its industrialization phase. Nevertheless it's horrible for American workers and the American middle class. It's literally the only thing I agree with Trump about -- that China needs to be taken to task for its extremely aggressive trade policies.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Might makes right, and you can only take someone to task if you have the power to do so. The US (or at least owners of equity in the US) are too dependent on the cheap labor and lax environmental rules of China, otherwise there is no reason for the most powerful country in the world to let another country take "advantage" of them.
  - api 8y ago
    China is equally dependent on foreign infusions of capital. The real issue I think is that labor arbitrage has been very good for upper income and wealthy Americans. Corporations and the rich have gotten much richer by shipping labor off to China and paying less for it and pocketing the difference. That's largely why there has been no political will to challenge this situation.
    - lotsofpulp 8y ago
      I find it funny that it's also the previous generations' middle class' 401(k)s and pensions that need the investment returns provided by cheap chinese labor and lax environmental rules, while at the same time ruining the future for their descendants.
    - Fjolsvith 8y ago
      To me, the lack of political will to change has been akin to the local business owner being afraid to tell the local mafia boss he no longer needs protection.
- firethief 8y ago
  Technology has stretched scarcity-based economics to the kind of breaking point where we complain when we get the iPhones and they get the sweatshops.
- fellellor 8y ago
  Have you considered maybe American companies simply aren't competitive enough compared to the local players. American products are often too expensive because the companies want high dollar profits to show their shareholders, even if the cost of production, which is often outsourced, doesn't justify the high market price. Also, as time goes on the skills of the entire world population is being equalized. That is to say, the skilled labor market is becoming global. When that happens American workers and middle class simply can't keep enjoying the high wages that are currently prevalent. Unless of course, you want to start a new era of imperialism and force developing economies to confine themselves to the lower end of the value chain.
bluGill 8y ago
You can. However 1 billion potential customers are dangerous to ignore. It isn't just that they don't buy from you, it is that they buy from your competition - which can include a brand new company they start locally - which gives your competition enough cash to design their next version better than yours.
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  Its not dangerous to ignore if it results in your entire IP portfolio getting expropriated and used to crush you. Its a siren song that is enabled by increased quarterly profits, even knowing full well the risks, it will be another CEO and board before they come home to roost.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    It is a double edge sword for sure.

taobility 8y ago

That's so called exchange the technology by the market. If you are in the condition of China, what will you do to avoid yourself always stay in the lower level manufacture status? Imagine that's you as a human being, are you willing to always do the low pay labor work, or learning the knowledge and experience from your colleague secretly as they not willing to share with you, then try to position yourself a better career path?