9 ms·

'Super Mario Bros.' speedrunner hits nearly inhuman 4:55 world record

445 points by danso 8y ago

danso 8y ago
Explanatory comment from main r/speedrun thread: https://np.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/9ip34a/455_by_kosmic_smb1_wr_attempt_number_9/e6lfgwl/ https://np.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/9ip34a/455_by_kosm...
nsmith14 8y ago
How much time until it's proven he cheated? I give it one year. (This comment is in jest, but that has been my experience with the speedrunning community thus far.)
- guipsp 8y ago
  Kosmic is a seasoned speedrunner. I highly doubt he's cheating.
dabeeeenster 8y ago
This is a super interesting video about how things work internally - really fascinating. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw&t=3s
dinoqqq 8y ago
Here is the video that explains how he did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw Incredible how many hidden tricks/bugs/calculations went into that world record.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Dowwie 8y ago
This trivializes my childhood accomplishment. I don't like it! It blows my mind how speed runners learn to exploit the inner workings of a game, from timing hacks of the RNG to positioning actors on the screen to unlock design weaknesses. While it takes a lot of skill and many hours of practice to pull off these exploits, advancing through a game at record speeds through exploits takes away from the experience that was intended for play. Speedrunning is not playing the game better but rather playing exploits better.
- adrianN 8y ago
  It's a different game that uses the same cartidge. I don't think you should think of it as taking away from the experience, it rather adds another aspect of the game that you can enjoy.
- Hattes 8y ago
  Seems like a false dichotomy to me. This run has a fair amount of exploits, but also a lot of plain "being good at Mario". Compare to the any% run of Pokémon Red/Blue for instance (which uses an exploit to warp to the final screen of the game without any "traditional" gameplay).
- oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
  I think it's a bit of both. Clearly, the glitches weren't in the mind of the creators, so don't represent the 'proper' game. Still, this guy would clearly be insanely good at the game even if all the glitches were taken out — he's still playing the game better. It's also pretty difficult to define exactly where to draw the line on this one, so it's easier to just say "anything goes".
- moate 8y ago
  Think of the game as a deck of cards. You liked playing poker with the deck. These people are playing solitaire. It's a different game entirely using the same pieces. Your goal (to have fun) and their goal (to do something faster than any other person on the planet) both provided you with a sense of accomplishment, but you were never really trying to do the same things
- emodendroket 8y ago
  You can't do the speed run without first doing a regular run
mrob 8y ago
>When Kosmic says he's tied with the TAS run at 4-1, that means his inputs are matched up exactly with the program's and he can't physically do any better. It means he can't physically get a better time, but it does not mean his inputs are matched up exactly with the TAS. SMB1 level transitions are based around the "frame rule", which means you don't advance to the next level until the number of elapsed frames from the start of that level is a multiple of 21. This means it's possible to have slightly imperfect input on all levels except 8-4 (the last level, so no waiting to advance to the next level there) and still get the same time as the TAS (unless the TAS reached the end of the level with no frames to spare). The TAS aims to reach the end of each level as fast as possible even if it would mean no overall time saving because of the wait for the multiple of 21 frames. I think this mechanic has been very beneficial for speedrunning, because it gives clear sub-goals. When you hear runners talking about "saving a frame rule", that means reaching the end of the level in time for an earlier multiple of 21 frames.
- lars_francke 8y ago
  For anyone else wondering: TAS = Tool-assisted game movies http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    Tool Assisted Speedrun. It means you perform input to the game programmatically meaning you can set the input perfectly on a per-frame basis.
    - jamespo 8y ago
      what is the point of that
      - OscarCunningham 8y ago
        Just for fun, or to have a "theoretical optimum" to compare human speedruns to.
dzdt 8y ago
There is something amazing about artforms when the performers and spectators have an appreciation for the subtlest details. Mario speedruns are an oddball artform surely, but right now it has enough of a community to appreciate those details. For example, from the article I gather to "clip the wall to warp into the first level of world four" is a well-known and discussed precision move in the genre. It reminds me a lot of classical ballet. There the moves and forms have been developed over centuries. As a non-expert I can go to a show and see they dance beautifully. An expert may be disappointed by the same performance -- were the hands poised just so; were the movements optimally precise? It takes a lot of feedback between knowledgeable fans and expert performers to push an artform to its highest levels of excellence.
- colordrops 8y ago
  Naw, clipping the wall is taking advantage of a well known intentionally created bug where you walk through a wall to get to an area to skip levels. Every kid playing the game back in the 80s knew about it.
  - feanaro 8y ago
    How is this different from what the previous post said?
  - la_oveja 8y ago
    i think you're referring simply to the warp zones, which are accessible with normal jumps. With wall clipping you don't go on top the wall, you go through it. See 1:10 and 2:04 on his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gum4GI2Jr0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gum4GI2Jr0s
    - jancsika 8y ago
      No, I think he's referring to the technique of wall clipping you can use toward the end of 1-2 before you take the pipe back out to the flag. Back in the 80s/90s kids would show how you could clip through the wall to the warp zone for two purposes: 1. as an alternative to jumping from the platform to the top of the screen. 2. More importantly, to get to level -1. You can do this because clipping through the wall Mario can arrive at the first warp zone pipe before the game registers that pipe as one of the labeled warp zone pipes. If you instead walk to the warp zone from the top of the screen Mario has to go all the way to the left before dropping down. And that would trigger the normal warp zones everyone is familiar with. What the speed runners are doing is understanding the mechanics of wall clipping on a much deeper level. Rather than doing it to make Mario "moonwalk" or reach a special warp zone, they do it to push Mario forward on the screen. This allows them to do stuff like "wrong warp" and shave some frames off of their time to beat the game faster.
pattle 8y ago
If anyone is interested in speed runs I really recommend this YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w Thy're a series of videos on how world records have been lowered over time on various games. It's fascinating watching particularity the one on Super Mario 64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s
- joshschreuder 8y ago
  Love the SummoningSalt vids and second the recommendation. I just wish there was more as they are so interesting!
  - kennyadam 8y ago
    There's a guy on YouTube & Twitch, who posts N64 Goldeneye speedrunning breakdowns at the start of each month. Very specific niche but oddly interesting! RWhiteGoose is his username.
    - songshu 8y ago
      I love RWhiteGoose and the GoldenEye speedrun community generally. There's a core group of 50 or so people who've spent literally man-decades optimizing that game. If you haven't seen his "speedlore" series on YouTube I recommend it, he goes through the history of optimizations of a particular level. There are many parallels with the experience of optimizing software systems and the cycle of breakthrough and consolidation we go through there.
      - trey-jones 8y ago
        I am not a speedrunner and I don't really follow any speedrunning community, but this takes me back to 1998 doing the Facility in time for the Invincibility cheat. If I still remember it 20 years later, I must have done it a few times.
tribby 8y ago
super impressive stuff. I'm generally unfamiliar with speedrunning, but I am familiar with the billy mitchell controversies, so I'm surprised that people accept the legitimacy of streamed runs. wouldn't it be trivial-enough to fake? tangental: my personal favorite mario-related feat is sethbling injecting flappy bird into super mario world manually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0
- ngokevin 8y ago
  Would it be fair to say similar scandals have happened in actual sports (PEDs, judge corruption)? Cheating is often caught and corrected in the speedrunning community.
  - MiddleEndian 8y ago
    As a regular fan of MMA and occasional watcher of boxing, I can't think of a single example of the sports' governing bodies overturning a corrupt result, even in the Olympics. Occasionally judges will be fired later; that's it. PEDs are enforced almost sporadically; I wish they didn't bother. Edit: By corrupt result I meant corrupt or inaccurate judging.
    - kod 8y ago
      Cormier vs Jones 2
      - MiddleEndian 8y ago
        That fight was overturned due to Jones popping for PEDs, not due to improper judging. When I said "corrupt result" I meant corrupt judging. Sorry I was unclear.
- mrob 8y ago
  It's possible to fake streamed runs, e.g. by miming over pre-recorded spliced/TASed runs, but Kosmic has played at live events where this would be impossible, and there's no doubt that he has the skill to do this legitimately.
dzek69 8y ago
On the video I see pausing of the timer on 0:36 (video time, not timer time). What's going on there?
- wnkrshm 8y ago
  Looks like the game is losing focus but it's pausing inbetween the clicks - at first I thought it didn't pause but you can look at the score being counted up in the game, it pauses with the pauses in the timer, so I think there is no mistake.
- daxterspeed 8y ago
  In the top left of the video feed there's supposed to be an active input display (showing what buttons are being pressed on the controller). At this point in the video he fixes the input display, causing the capture of the timer to stagger a little bit. As you'll notice by the end of the video the timer doesn't actually display 4:55.913, even though that's his record time - this is because the entire run has been re-timed (more accurately) after the record was set.
  - oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
    How did he know, live, that he'd beaten the time?
    - wingerlang 8y ago
      Probably the rough timer he uses combined with knowing that he nailed most tricks.
    - danso 8y ago
      I had wondered about this too and asked about it in r/speedruns [0] I originally assumed that speedrunners used some kind of special software/hardware that provide the watch counters displayed during their streams, but apparently, the displayed timer is controlled manually, via something like a foot pedal, and is not meant to be the official time (which is verified later through analysis) But for a game like SMB, in which there is a hardcoded "window" (the 21-frame rule), it seems like it's fairly easy for a speedrunner to know if they've performed optimally when they finish each level. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9iturn/super_mario_bros_speedrunner_hits_nearly_inhuman/e6mn2bk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9iturn/super_mario_b... Helpful comment: > Additionally for Super Mario Bros. there is a thing called the frame rule that basically means that you can only beat a level (except the last level) on certain frames. If you beat the level before the frame rule then the game waits until the next frame rule before starting the next level. It's something like every 20 frames, I'm not exactly sure. So for most of the levels you only really need to know which frame rule you hit, which is fairly easy even with manual timing. The end of the last level needs to be measured precisely though.
lysp 8y ago
A great explanation of all the tricks used is this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw They basically go through Kosmic's (4:56.462 WR) run earlier in the year. Showing a few replays explaining each of the tricks/techniques used. There are quite a lot of places where you literally need to be perfect to the pixel to get a good run.
RGamma 8y ago
The current world record in tool-assisted speedrunning is at http://tasvideos.org/1715M.html http://tasvideos.org/1715M.html beating the game in 4:54.03 (RTA timing, measured from start menu) or 04:57.31 (TAS timing, measured from console power-on)
foobaw 8y ago
Can't wait until I see new exploits!
jancsika 8y ago
Anyone have a link to the explanation someone did to explain the 21-frame event callbacks in terms of a bus stop? I thought it was pretty clever.
- I-M-S 8y ago
  https://youtu.be/i1AHCaokqhg?t=10m47s https://youtu.be/i1AHCaokqhg?t=10m47s
nerdnumerouno 8y ago
Isn't this the guy that switched genders and ticked off his community? What an interesting group of folks these speedrunners are!
artsyxxx 8y ago
Is this an emulator run?
rofo1 8y ago
Here's a Half-Life 1 speed run (best time afaik): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY I can't even begin to describe how much skill and movement precision is in this video :)

445 points by danso 8y ago

Explanatory comment from main r/speedrun thread: https://np.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/9ip34a/455_by_kosmic_smb1_wr_attempt_number_9/e6lfgwl/ https://np.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/9ip34a/455_by_kosm...

nsmith14 8y ago

How much time until it's proven he cheated? I give it one year. (This comment is in jest, but that has been my experience with the speedrunning community thus far.)

guipsp 8y ago
Kosmic is a seasoned speedrunner. I highly doubt he's cheating.

dabeeeenster 8y ago

This is a super interesting video about how things work internally - really fascinating. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw&t=3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw&t=3s

dinoqqq 8y ago

Here is the video that explains how he did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw Incredible how many hidden tricks/bugs/calculations went into that world record.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Dowwie 8y ago

This trivializes my childhood accomplishment. I don't like it! It blows my mind how speed runners learn to exploit the inner workings of a game, from timing hacks of the RNG to positioning actors on the screen to unlock design weaknesses. While it takes a lot of skill and many hours of practice to pull off these exploits, advancing through a game at record speeds through exploits takes away from the experience that was intended for play. Speedrunning is not playing the game better but rather playing exploits better.

adrianN 8y ago
It's a different game that uses the same cartidge. I don't think you should think of it as taking away from the experience, it rather adds another aspect of the game that you can enjoy.
Hattes 8y ago
Seems like a false dichotomy to me. This run has a fair amount of exploits, but also a lot of plain "being good at Mario". Compare to the any% run of Pokémon Red/Blue for instance (which uses an exploit to warp to the final screen of the game without any "traditional" gameplay).
oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
I think it's a bit of both. Clearly, the glitches weren't in the mind of the creators, so don't represent the 'proper' game. Still, this guy would clearly be insanely good at the game even if all the glitches were taken out — he's still playing the game better. It's also pretty difficult to define exactly where to draw the line on this one, so it's easier to just say "anything goes".
moate 8y ago
Think of the game as a deck of cards. You liked playing poker with the deck. These people are playing solitaire. It's a different game entirely using the same pieces. Your goal (to have fun) and their goal (to do something faster than any other person on the planet) both provided you with a sense of accomplishment, but you were never really trying to do the same things
emodendroket 8y ago
You can't do the speed run without first doing a regular run

mrob 8y ago

>When Kosmic says he's tied with the TAS run at 4-1, that means his inputs are matched up exactly with the program's and he can't physically do any better. It means he can't physically get a better time, but it does not mean his inputs are matched up exactly with the TAS. SMB1 level transitions are based around the "frame rule", which means you don't advance to the next level until the number of elapsed frames from the start of that level is a multiple of 21. This means it's possible to have slightly imperfect input on all levels except 8-4 (the last level, so no waiting to advance to the next level there) and still get the same time as the TAS (unless the TAS reached the end of the level with no frames to spare). The TAS aims to reach the end of each level as fast as possible even if it would mean no overall time saving because of the wait for the multiple of 21 frames. I think this mechanic has been very beneficial for speedrunning, because it gives clear sub-goals. When you hear runners talking about "saving a frame rule", that means reaching the end of the level in time for an earlier multiple of 21 frames.

lars_francke 8y ago
For anyone else wondering: TAS = Tool-assisted game movies http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-super-mario-bros.html
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  Tool Assisted Speedrun. It means you perform input to the game programmatically meaning you can set the input perfectly on a per-frame basis.
  - jamespo 8y ago
    what is the point of that
    - OscarCunningham 8y ago
      Just for fun, or to have a "theoretical optimum" to compare human speedruns to.

dzdt 8y ago

There is something amazing about artforms when the performers and spectators have an appreciation for the subtlest details. Mario speedruns are an oddball artform surely, but right now it has enough of a community to appreciate those details. For example, from the article I gather to "clip the wall to warp into the first level of world four" is a well-known and discussed precision move in the genre. It reminds me a lot of classical ballet. There the moves and forms have been developed over centuries. As a non-expert I can go to a show and see they dance beautifully. An expert may be disappointed by the same performance -- were the hands poised just so; were the movements optimally precise? It takes a lot of feedback between knowledgeable fans and expert performers to push an artform to its highest levels of excellence.

colordrops 8y ago
Naw, clipping the wall is taking advantage of a well known intentionally created bug where you walk through a wall to get to an area to skip levels. Every kid playing the game back in the 80s knew about it.
- feanaro 8y ago
  How is this different from what the previous post said?
- la_oveja 8y ago
  i think you're referring simply to the warp zones, which are accessible with normal jumps. With wall clipping you don't go on top the wall, you go through it. See 1:10 and 2:04 on his video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gum4GI2Jr0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gum4GI2Jr0s
  - jancsika 8y ago
    No, I think he's referring to the technique of wall clipping you can use toward the end of 1-2 before you take the pipe back out to the flag. Back in the 80s/90s kids would show how you could clip through the wall to the warp zone for two purposes: 1. as an alternative to jumping from the platform to the top of the screen. 2. More importantly, to get to level -1. You can do this because clipping through the wall Mario can arrive at the first warp zone pipe before the game registers that pipe as one of the labeled warp zone pipes. If you instead walk to the warp zone from the top of the screen Mario has to go all the way to the left before dropping down. And that would trigger the normal warp zones everyone is familiar with. What the speed runners are doing is understanding the mechanics of wall clipping on a much deeper level. Rather than doing it to make Mario "moonwalk" or reach a special warp zone, they do it to push Mario forward on the screen. This allows them to do stuff like "wrong warp" and shave some frames off of their time to beat the game faster.

pattle 8y ago

If anyone is interested in speed runs I really recommend this YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w Thy're a series of videos on how world records have been lowered over time on various games. It's fascinating watching particularity the one on Super Mario 64 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7ePi38LnrA&t=16s

joshschreuder 8y ago
Love the SummoningSalt vids and second the recommendation. I just wish there was more as they are so interesting!
- kennyadam 8y ago
  There's a guy on YouTube & Twitch, who posts N64 Goldeneye speedrunning breakdowns at the start of each month. Very specific niche but oddly interesting! RWhiteGoose is his username.
  - songshu 8y ago
    I love RWhiteGoose and the GoldenEye speedrun community generally. There's a core group of 50 or so people who've spent literally man-decades optimizing that game. If you haven't seen his "speedlore" series on YouTube I recommend it, he goes through the history of optimizations of a particular level. There are many parallels with the experience of optimizing software systems and the cycle of breakthrough and consolidation we go through there.
    - trey-jones 8y ago
      I am not a speedrunner and I don't really follow any speedrunning community, but this takes me back to 1998 doing the Facility in time for the Invincibility cheat. If I still remember it 20 years later, I must have done it a few times.

tribby 8y ago

super impressive stuff. I'm generally unfamiliar with speedrunning, but I am familiar with the billy mitchell controversies, so I'm surprised that people accept the legitimacy of streamed runs. wouldn't it be trivial-enough to fake? tangental: my personal favorite mario-related feat is sethbling injecting flappy bird into super mario world manually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6eY73sLV0

ngokevin 8y ago
Would it be fair to say similar scandals have happened in actual sports (PEDs, judge corruption)? Cheating is often caught and corrected in the speedrunning community.
- MiddleEndian 8y ago
  As a regular fan of MMA and occasional watcher of boxing, I can't think of a single example of the sports' governing bodies overturning a corrupt result, even in the Olympics. Occasionally judges will be fired later; that's it. PEDs are enforced almost sporadically; I wish they didn't bother. Edit: By corrupt result I meant corrupt or inaccurate judging.
  - kod 8y ago
    Cormier vs Jones 2
    - MiddleEndian 8y ago
      That fight was overturned due to Jones popping for PEDs, not due to improper judging. When I said "corrupt result" I meant corrupt judging. Sorry I was unclear.
mrob 8y ago
It's possible to fake streamed runs, e.g. by miming over pre-recorded spliced/TASed runs, but Kosmic has played at live events where this would be impossible, and there's no doubt that he has the skill to do this legitimately.

dzek69 8y ago

On the video I see pausing of the timer on 0:36 (video time, not timer time). What's going on there?

wnkrshm 8y ago
Looks like the game is losing focus but it's pausing inbetween the clicks - at first I thought it didn't pause but you can look at the score being counted up in the game, it pauses with the pauses in the timer, so I think there is no mistake.
daxterspeed 8y ago
In the top left of the video feed there's supposed to be an active input display (showing what buttons are being pressed on the controller). At this point in the video he fixes the input display, causing the capture of the timer to stagger a little bit. As you'll notice by the end of the video the timer doesn't actually display 4:55.913, even though that's his record time - this is because the entire run has been re-timed (more accurately) after the record was set.
- oneeyedpigeon 8y ago
  How did he know, live, that he'd beaten the time?
  - wingerlang 8y ago
    Probably the rough timer he uses combined with knowing that he nailed most tricks.
  - danso 8y ago
    I had wondered about this too and asked about it in r/speedruns [0] I originally assumed that speedrunners used some kind of special software/hardware that provide the watch counters displayed during their streams, but apparently, the displayed timer is controlled manually, via something like a foot pedal, and is not meant to be the official time (which is verified later through analysis) But for a game like SMB, in which there is a hardcoded "window" (the 21-frame rule), it seems like it's fairly easy for a speedrunner to know if they've performed optimally when they finish each level. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9iturn/super_mario_bros_speedrunner_hits_nearly_inhuman/e6mn2bk/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/9iturn/super_mario_b... Helpful comment: > Additionally for Super Mario Bros. there is a thing called the frame rule that basically means that you can only beat a level (except the last level) on certain frames. If you beat the level before the frame rule then the game waits until the next frame rule before starting the next level. It's something like every 20 frames, I'm not exactly sure. So for most of the levels you only really need to know which frame rule you hit, which is fairly easy even with manual timing. The end of the last level needs to be measured precisely though.

lysp 8y ago

A great explanation of all the tricks used is this video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FQJEzJ_cQw They basically go through Kosmic's (4:56.462 WR) run earlier in the year. Showing a few replays explaining each of the tricks/techniques used. There are quite a lot of places where you literally need to be perfect to the pixel to get a good run.

RGamma 8y ago

The current world record in tool-assisted speedrunning is at http://tasvideos.org/1715M.html http://tasvideos.org/1715M.html beating the game in 4:54.03 (RTA timing, measured from start menu) or 04:57.31 (TAS timing, measured from console power-on)

foobaw 8y ago

Can't wait until I see new exploits!

jancsika 8y ago

Anyone have a link to the explanation someone did to explain the 21-frame event callbacks in terms of a bus stop? I thought it was pretty clever.

I-M-S 8y ago
https://youtu.be/i1AHCaokqhg?t=10m47s https://youtu.be/i1AHCaokqhg?t=10m47s

nerdnumerouno 8y ago

Isn't this the guy that switched genders and ticked off his community? What an interesting group of folks these speedrunners are!

artsyxxx 8y ago

Is this an emulator run?

rofo1 8y ago

Here's a Half-Life 1 speed run (best time afaik): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtI5HM7GVGY I can't even begin to describe how much skill and movement precision is in this video :)