4 ms·

What this article doesn't mention, is that Denmark is facing all these issues now, because Danske Bank's Estonian branch was used to move vast sums of money out

by krn 8y ago

What this article doesn't mention, is that Denmark is facing all these issues now, because Danske Bank's Estonian branch was used to move vast sums of money out of Russia by the people close to Russian government and Vladimir Putin himself, using the scheme called "The Russian Laundromat"[1]: > FSB representatives served on the board of at least one of banks that wired billions out of Russia as did Igor Putin, Putin’s cousin. He was a manager and executive board member in the Russian Land Bank. [1] https://www.occrp.org/en/laundromat/the-russian-laundromat-exposed/ https://www.occrp.org/en/laundromat/the-russian-laundromat-e...

gadders 8y ago
There is a theory that Vladimir Putin is the actual richest man in the world.
- arghwhat 8y ago
  Who can beat privately owning an entire country?
- saiya-jin 8y ago
  Probably not true, but he is indeed super rich. If common state-media-brainwashed folks in Russia knew how rich he is, and all of it is stolen from all Russian citizens bit by bit (actually billion by billion), they would hang him on the nearest street light unceremoniously. I would expect that he diversified his wealth all over the world via 'friends', stored in shady wealth management companies, well located banks, and probably few tonnes of good old $$ and gold. Some bankers in one Zurich bank might give you some info (but might not be alive to confirm it afterwards). But he has good PR - it often looks ridiculous to western eyes, but for most russians it hits some obscure sweet spot. And of course he is not some lone wolf, rather guy on top of a massive pyramid with tons of FSB people who know their stuff a bit too well. Who else would you be expecting to run huge broken country like Russia for so long so successfully? I mean, even Arafat died as a billionaire, and Palestine ain't some Eldorado to begin with.
  - bjourne 8y ago
    Arafat didn't. See f.e https://www.quora.com/Where-is-Yasser-Arafats-supposed-1-3-billion-wealth-before-he-died-today https://www.quora.com/Where-is-Yasser-Arafats-supposed-1-3-b.... Who knows how much money Putin has embezzled? Since no one has any idea, I think it is wrong to claim it must be this or that much. It's just shots in the dark.
    - wahern 8y ago
      The Panama Papers provide some concrete examples of how Putin siphons money and puts a rough floor on the dollar value he embezzled for his personal benefit or of his inner sanctum: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/panama-papers-money-hidden-offshore https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/panama-papers-m... That said, it's sort of beside the point. Unlike petty dictators, Putin holds real and substantial power--power that money can't buy outright, and power that he'll probably continue holding until his death. He doesn't need an exit strategy and a golden parachute. OTOH, he secured much of that power redirecting assets. It's less unbelievable that Putin has deliberately permitted $200 billion of embezzled funds to be redirected to those who do his bidding.
      - saiya-jin 8y ago
        I don't claim to know how much he stole (I don't think even he knows it personally, that's what you use accountants for), but that major Zurich bank I mentioned ain't some empty talk - I've met the a bit too talkative wife of one of those bankers, and these kind of deals are still not uncommon in wealth management. And this is just one out of many examples, Panama papers reveal more. He doesn't need the exit strategy now, but it would be stupid of him not to have one (probably more than one), because nobody knows what future will bring. You only need one charismatic opponent to undermine him. Overall I think he isn't a bad person for the position he has - he is definitely not outright evil, also definitely not weak and probably quite a patriot. But Russia could have achieved much more than where they are right now, with better leadership. At least in theory.
- drb91 8y ago
  Probably, even if not in asset value. He can make more money for himself if he wants.
- cryoshon 8y ago
  i've heard his wealth estimated at $200 billion USD. but at this point i don't think it matters. he has an entire country.
  - adventured 8y ago
    I've been reading about those claims for well over a decade now. Not one of them has ever explained where he could have come up with ~$200 billion (or the old numbers, which were more like $40b to $50b) from. There is no entity inside of Russia capable of spitting off that kind of hidden side profit - just for him - in the time frame in question. Their entire economy is a mere $1.5 trillion. If you figure most of the graft occured in the last 13 to 15 years, where was he siphoning $12+ billion per year from? Again, there are no entities in Russia capable of subtly delivering that sort of cash. If he owned 100% of Rosneft (or Lukoil) and Gazprom, he'd still be worth closer to ~$100b-$120b than $200b. Needless to say, he doesn't own those two. He'd have had to be taking a very large share of the annual total industrial profit of Russia, to squirrel away these sorts of numbers over time. The notion that Putin is secretly the richest person (they keep increasing the mythical sum over time to stay ahead of Gates etc), is nothing more than empty bravado that Russia likes to encourage to artificially prop up the projection of power that Putin relies upon to govern.
    - JetSpiegel 8y ago
      Putin de facto owns those companies and more, the oligarchs are in his pocket. He might not be on the corporate hierarchy, but his decisions override the board.
      - gadders 8y ago
        When he can have the CEO killed like Berezovsky, he pretty much has a veto over policy.
    - akiselev 8y ago
      I agree that the claim itself is probably propaganda, but claiming that there "is no entity inside of Russia capable of spitting off that kind of hidden side profit - just for him - in the time frame in question" is also a massive stretch. Russian Ministry of Defense officials estimate that about 25% of the military budget is literally stolen or lost to corruption while anti-corruption gov't auditors estimate the number is at least 40%. Even if Putin only ever gets 1% of that graft, that's $100-200 million a year in revenue from an industry that accounts for less than 5% of the GDP. That math almost certainly extends to most of the economy because this kind of corruption is damn-near omnipresent in Russian society. I'd need both hands to count the number of times my travel plans were disrupted because someone stole the funds for antifreeze (in Sheremetyevo International no less) or airport/train/border security. Likewise, you could see at Sochi just how vast the chasm was between what was budgeted for and what was actually built. The sheer scale of it is more than enough to generate a few hundred billion dollars for a single person, after paying off all the levels below to maintain power. Also, what evidence do we have that the stolen funds are even included in the GDP calculation? Are the indicators used to estimate GDP susceptible to the same corruption or can they effectively?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

by krn 8y ago

gadders 8y ago

There is a theory that Vladimir Putin is the actual richest man in the world.

arghwhat 8y ago
Who can beat privately owning an entire country?
saiya-jin 8y ago
Probably not true, but he is indeed super rich. If common state-media-brainwashed folks in Russia knew how rich he is, and all of it is stolen from all Russian citizens bit by bit (actually billion by billion), they would hang him on the nearest street light unceremoniously. I would expect that he diversified his wealth all over the world via 'friends', stored in shady wealth management companies, well located banks, and probably few tonnes of good old $$ and gold. Some bankers in one Zurich bank might give you some info (but might not be alive to confirm it afterwards). But he has good PR - it often looks ridiculous to western eyes, but for most russians it hits some obscure sweet spot. And of course he is not some lone wolf, rather guy on top of a massive pyramid with tons of FSB people who know their stuff a bit too well. Who else would you be expecting to run huge broken country like Russia for so long so successfully? I mean, even Arafat died as a billionaire, and Palestine ain't some Eldorado to begin with.
- bjourne 8y ago
  Arafat didn't. See f.e https://www.quora.com/Where-is-Yasser-Arafats-supposed-1-3-billion-wealth-before-he-died-today https://www.quora.com/Where-is-Yasser-Arafats-supposed-1-3-b.... Who knows how much money Putin has embezzled? Since no one has any idea, I think it is wrong to claim it must be this or that much. It's just shots in the dark.
  - wahern 8y ago
    The Panama Papers provide some concrete examples of how Putin siphons money and puts a rough floor on the dollar value he embezzled for his personal benefit or of his inner sanctum: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/panama-papers-money-hidden-offshore https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/panama-papers-m... That said, it's sort of beside the point. Unlike petty dictators, Putin holds real and substantial power--power that money can't buy outright, and power that he'll probably continue holding until his death. He doesn't need an exit strategy and a golden parachute. OTOH, he secured much of that power redirecting assets. It's less unbelievable that Putin has deliberately permitted $200 billion of embezzled funds to be redirected to those who do his bidding.
    - saiya-jin 8y ago
      I don't claim to know how much he stole (I don't think even he knows it personally, that's what you use accountants for), but that major Zurich bank I mentioned ain't some empty talk - I've met the a bit too talkative wife of one of those bankers, and these kind of deals are still not uncommon in wealth management. And this is just one out of many examples, Panama papers reveal more. He doesn't need the exit strategy now, but it would be stupid of him not to have one (probably more than one), because nobody knows what future will bring. You only need one charismatic opponent to undermine him. Overall I think he isn't a bad person for the position he has - he is definitely not outright evil, also definitely not weak and probably quite a patriot. But Russia could have achieved much more than where they are right now, with better leadership. At least in theory.
drb91 8y ago
Probably, even if not in asset value. He can make more money for himself if he wants.
cryoshon 8y ago
i've heard his wealth estimated at $200 billion USD. but at this point i don't think it matters. he has an entire country.
- adventured 8y ago
  I've been reading about those claims for well over a decade now. Not one of them has ever explained where he could have come up with ~$200 billion (or the old numbers, which were more like $40b to $50b) from. There is no entity inside of Russia capable of spitting off that kind of hidden side profit - just for him - in the time frame in question. Their entire economy is a mere $1.5 trillion. If you figure most of the graft occured in the last 13 to 15 years, where was he siphoning $12+ billion per year from? Again, there are no entities in Russia capable of subtly delivering that sort of cash. If he owned 100% of Rosneft (or Lukoil) and Gazprom, he'd still be worth closer to ~$100b-$120b than $200b. Needless to say, he doesn't own those two. He'd have had to be taking a very large share of the annual total industrial profit of Russia, to squirrel away these sorts of numbers over time. The notion that Putin is secretly the richest person (they keep increasing the mythical sum over time to stay ahead of Gates etc), is nothing more than empty bravado that Russia likes to encourage to artificially prop up the projection of power that Putin relies upon to govern.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    Putin de facto owns those companies and more, the oligarchs are in his pocket. He might not be on the corporate hierarchy, but his decisions override the board.
    - gadders 8y ago
      When he can have the CEO killed like Berezovsky, he pretty much has a veto over policy.
  - akiselev 8y ago
    I agree that the claim itself is probably propaganda, but claiming that there "is no entity inside of Russia capable of spitting off that kind of hidden side profit - just for him - in the time frame in question" is also a massive stretch. Russian Ministry of Defense officials estimate that about 25% of the military budget is literally stolen or lost to corruption while anti-corruption gov't auditors estimate the number is at least 40%. Even if Putin only ever gets 1% of that graft, that's $100-200 million a year in revenue from an industry that accounts for less than 5% of the GDP. That math almost certainly extends to most of the economy because this kind of corruption is damn-near omnipresent in Russian society. I'd need both hands to count the number of times my travel plans were disrupted because someone stole the funds for antifreeze (in Sheremetyevo International no less) or airport/train/border security. Likewise, you could see at Sochi just how vast the chasm was between what was budgeted for and what was actually built. The sheer scale of it is more than enough to generate a few hundred billion dollars for a single person, after paying off all the levels below to maintain power. Also, what evidence do we have that the stolen funds are even included in the GDP calculation? Are the indicators used to estimate GDP susceptible to the same corruption or can they effectively?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]