12 ms·

Manyverse – A social network off the grid

298 points by staltz 8y ago

Grumbledour 8y ago
I really do like SSB in concept, but I am kinda sad that it seems to fit mainly for social networks. I would like to see something more discussion/topic focused than user centric, but of course with the whole peer to peer and offline aspects.
- crypt0x 8y ago
  > I would like to see something more discussion/topic focused than user centric hmm.. at it's core it's just a database (that syncs across the friend graph), you might find cel's work on git-ssb and ssb-npm-registry interesting. you could just as well make something like discourse ontop of it. we are currently discussing something more _groupware_ like to remove the dependency on github for issue tracking.
- soapdog 8y ago
  I've seen multiple implementations of different paradigms on top of SSB. Even though most of the clients are providing you with a lens that makes it look like a social network, there is so much more to it. Check the application tab at http://scuttlebutt.nz http://scuttlebutt.nz The SSB protocol and feed database are both very flexible and can be used in the way you want if someone builds the app for it.
- staltz 8y ago
  One exciting use case of SSB that might interest you: https://github.com/cn-uofbasel/ssbdrv/ https://github.com/cn-uofbasel/ssbdrv/
- gregknicholson 8y ago
  You can use it for chess too! https://github.com/Happy0/ssb-chess https://github.com/Happy0/ssb-chess
  - ChristianBundy 8y ago
    Honestly the chess keeps me coming back. At first I was excited to be playing chess again, but it's a great way to have a casual chat and get to know each other a bit better. Can't recommend it enough.
    - gregknicholson 8y ago
      I prefer Go to chess, so I'm eagerly awaiting a version of https://github.com/maackle/ssb-igo https://github.com/maackle/ssb-igo that I can just install via Flatpak and use.
    - happynaut 8y ago
      aww, thanks :)
- rolleiflex 8y ago
  I’m working on exactly that, full time since March or so. About to launch. See a demo walkthrough (2:52m, silent) here. https://vimeo.com/287330735 https://vimeo.com/287330735
- marknadal 8y ago
  Discussion/topic based, as in like Reddit or HN? Not SSB, but NAB ( https://notabug.io/ https://notabug.io/ ) might be what you are looking for, also offline-first and P2P.
kickscondor 8y ago
One of my issues with Secure Scuttlebutt is that it is difficult to participate unless you already know other people there. I joined and began messaging other users and commenting on the community hashtags - only to discover that no one was going to get my messages until they subscribed to me. This means that I either need to message those users outside of the network - or I need to run into them irl. Is this a feature of SSB or a bug? I mean once I'm in the network and well-entrenched, I could see it being a feature. But how do I even get to that point? (Oh and does Manyverse address this at all? Sorry I don't have Android.)
- crypt0x 8y ago
  I think this is by design. andre summarizes this as pull vs push architectures. you need to be pulled in by some1. SSB is not supposed to be _yet another global room_ but open a way for many small islands.
- staltz 8y ago
  This is a good point that I address in a talk (that hasn't yet been published on YouTube), but to summarize: ideally we want SSB to be a decentralized invite-only networks, so that someone has to pull you into their social circles, or you pull in others into yours. It has upsides and downsides, but we think it more naturally corresponds to relationships outside tech. Manyverse is the first SSB app that implements DHT invites: https://gitlab.com/staltz/ssb-dht-invite https://gitlab.com/staltz/ssb-dht-invite and the plan is to make it easier for anyone to invite anyone else, so that we rely less on a single "cluster". We want to get to the point where there are isolated islands of SSB networks. But the point you seem to be talking about is also discovery, e.g. something like a "search" feature for friends. We don't have any idea in mind for that, and we also question whether that's necessary at all, specially as we seek to bring this app to countries with limited or no internet access.
  - kickscondor 8y ago
    Thankyou for taking the time to reply to me - it's very good to hear your thoughts and I very much respect what you and the other SSB 'builders' are doing out there. I totally see why you'd want the network to be this way. I can see that there is a good momentum and common interest alive on the network and it's a very strange feeling to be on the network, but unable to participate. In a way, I'm taking advantage of the fact that you're paying attention here on HN - because I cannot reach you on SSB. > Manyverse is the first SSB app that implements DHT invites Ok - this is cool! I can see how SSB/Patchwork/Manyverse could be used to replace old invite-only forums (which I've enjoyed with 'real life' friends in the past.) So, yes, I do think discovery is a huge problem for SSB (and Dat, too) because one of the blissful (and terrible) things about the Web is that arbitrary people can find each other. This seems to be an even bigger problem now that certain networks are massive in scale - so the 'island' approach is one that excites me. Not sure about 'isolated', though. With Patchwork, I begin to wonder why I'm able to read things that I can't respond to - and then I realize that I probably don't want to anyway. I may just not understand the whole thing tho. :)
b2ccb2 8y ago
To anyone using a degoogled Android phone: A F-Droid release IS planned [1]. [1] https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044569401595514880 https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044569401595514880
- staltz 8y ago
  And in case people want the APK from other means, here in the source: https://gitlab.com/staltz/mmmmm-mobile/tags/v0.18.9-21.beta https://gitlab.com/staltz/mmmmm-mobile/tags/v0.18.9-21.beta Can also be installed via Dat Installer https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer (yep that's right, you can install a decentralized app through a decentralized app)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- imhoguy 8y ago
  Installs from F-Droid > Yalp Store [0] too. https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstor...
crypt0x 8y ago
podcastphile people new to the concept of ssb might find this episode interesting: https://stealthisshow.com/s04e04/ https://stealthisshow.com/s04e04/
travisluis 8y ago
Can anybody explain the important differences between this and Briar/Bramble[1]? [1] https://dymaxion.org/essays/briarvision.html https://dymaxion.org/essays/briarvision.html previously discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027949
- gregknicholson 8y ago
  How does Scuttlebutt (and Briar) relate to [Cabal]? [Cabal]: https://cabal-club.github.io/ https://cabal-club.github.io/ There seems to be a large overlap between the SSB and Cabal communities.
  - ahdinosaur 8y ago
    hi gregknicholson, i'll try! =^.^= Scuttlebutt is a social network platform where each uxer has a personal diary where each page is a signed message that links to the previous page. to receive updates on someone's diary, you follow the person. on each page, content is free-form. the most common message type is 'post', but there's a chat app (similar to Cabal) that uses message type 'scat_message': https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#scat https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#scat. Cabal is a chat app, built using the Dat protocol (https://datproject.org/ https://datproject.org/). Dat has a similar architecture, except the diaries (sigchains) are centered on content rather than people. so to receive updates on a diary, you follow the _content_, which in Cabal is a chat group similar to a Slack group.
    - e12e 8y ago
      I looked at the faq, but it's rather non-technical. Is there a security/privacy faq? My initial reading is that it's a lot like Twitter or things shouted out in a pub that films and archives everything that goes on? : no expectation of privacy, no secure private messages, no deniabilty? Ed: looks like https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/blob/master/README.md has a bit more meat. Still happy to hear any comments. Especially I assume any recipient can prove to a third party that someone said something?
TACIXAT 8y ago
I've installed this, if anyone wants a friend, email me an invite thing or I can email you one. Email in bio.
- staltz 8y ago
  Some people in the community have generous internet servers (pubs) also giving invites to people, but that can only work up until some point. Here's a way to easily setup a server yourself on DigitalOcean: http://butt.nz/install?url=https://github.com/ahdinosaur/ssb-pub http://butt.nz/install?url=https://github.com/ahdinosaur/ssb...
  - TACIXAT 8y ago
    I have a generous email.
    - ChristianBundy 8y ago
      https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/wiki/Pub-Servers https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/wiki/Pub-Servers
ndarilek 8y ago
Does SSB still make it impossible to share a single identity across multiple devices? (I.e. I'd like to log into my identity from my laptop but see that same identity's feed on my phone.) I want to participate, but periodically I check https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices.html https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices... and it hasn't changed, and for me, having a single device to which the entirety of my identity is tied is a non-starter. Even so, the tech seems interesting, and I hope that limitation goes away one day.
- sktrdie 8y ago
  Wow that seems like a pretty weird limitation. Wouldn't you be able to use the same password on a different device?
  - lucideer 8y ago
    SSB uses a simple immutable ledger per identity; merging isn't something that's supported architecturally. Their plan is to support this at a client level: you create multiple identities with metadata indicating that all are the same person on different devices, which clients can then use to group them appropriately in whatever way makes sense. UX wise, it may make sense for some clients to obscure this architecture from new users somewhat and treat them visually as the same identity, but that's down the line (and I'm sure some purist clients will never want to do this).
    - staltz 8y ago
      And progress has been to get there with the recent v3 of [ssb-friends](https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/ https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/)
      - marknadal 8y ago
        I've been telling Dominic and Juan (even Feross, Mathias, etc.) that there is a simple fix for this with CRDTs (GUN's or not) since 2014 - Dominic (SSB) has been the most cutting edge, he adopted some CRDTs I think for log relay, why not also for identity? Skip to 11:45 into the video, the algorithm/cryptography for it isn't that hard either: https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorithms-for-a-decentralized-webthe-gun-stack/ https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorith... you could do it in SSB without needing gun!
superkuh 8y ago
This actually sounds like a pretty great idea. Self hosting content is the only reliable way to prevent the perverse incentives and costs of centralization. But only having mobile apps for it makes it useless.
- gregknicholson 8y ago
  Then you're in luck! Patchwork is a fairly-mature desktop Scuttlebutt app. https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#patchwork https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#patchwork
  - superkuh 8y ago
    I know I'm moving the goalposts here but do you know of any native applications instead of javascript web apps packaged with a headless browser?
    - nanomonkey 8y ago
      There are a number of applications built upon the scuttlebutt protocol, most use some nodejs somewhere. https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications
    - crypt0x 8y ago
      Out of curiosity: which UI toolkit would you like to see? Qt/gnome/..? There now is a python and Go base and rust is starting as well.
    - fenwick67 8y ago
      All of the actual applications are listed here, there's nothing with winforms or whatever: https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications The core implementation is written in javascript so it's not surprising it uses Electron, it's a pragmatic option.
      - jpetso 8y ago
ron0c 8y ago
But what if your friends are boring?
- ChristianBundy 8y ago
  Make new ones! But really though, this is the first social network where I've been able to deeply connect with complete strangers. Some of my friends are on there too, but the sense of community is strong and contagious.
- jeswin 8y ago
  The default configuration syncs up to 3 connections away (friends of friends of friends). So you'd be able to find lots of interesting content and discussions in the extended network. In Patchwork (the most popular client), just go to the menu item labeled "Extended Network". Also, you could join as many "pubs" as you like - based on your interests. You'll start receiving feeds from other people who share the pub, and their friends as well.
- davidcollantes 8y ago
  You seek to add those non-friends who aren't. :-)
- e12e 8y ago
  Not to worry, it's a social network. They'll pretend to be interesting.
fareesh 8y ago
What are some solutions to posting something that you later regret? Pretty much nothing is my guess since it's like sending an email and regretting it later. Does the sync allow for deletion too?
- AndrewSChapman 8y ago
  It sounds a lot like a blockchain: "Your log is immutable and message order is preserved - every message+previous_hash is signed" which means no deletions, ever.
  - fenwick67 8y ago
    You can append a "delete" message and the clients won't display it going forward. The data is still there though.
    - ChristianBundy 8y ago
      There are solutions to this (check the #offchain-content channel) in the works, but currently it's true: anything you post will continue to be replicated by your friends.
- ahdinosaur 8y ago
  hi fareesh, as with real-life, you can't take back what you said, you can only apologize (in a new post). :) there's talk of moving message content out of the sigchain so you could "delete" (ask your peers to delete) a post: %QJEpN8LN1t3BrIkUQ3WoOMWRsMArbVUZCpTeBYcuqfw=.sha256
  - _kwmj 8y ago
    To be fair to real life there's a reasonable chance of forgetting :)
- marknadal 8y ago
  As far as I know, only (disclaimer: mine) GUN supports mutable (which enables deleting or changing data) updates in a P2P/decentralized network. Other systems all use some variant of immutable data structures (hashes, append-only logs, DAGs, etc.) vs CRDTs which can do immutable OR mutable data.
eximius 8y ago
Hm, if the author happens to be on here: I can't seem to email bug reports. "Unfortunately, your email to GitLab could not be processed. We couldn't find the project. Please check if there's any typo." Also, are issues turned off on the repo?
- staltz 8y ago
  Hi! Issues are on: https://gitlab.com/staltz/manyverse/issues https://gitlab.com/staltz/manyverse/issues The email bug report got broken when I renamed the app from mmmmm-mobile to manyverse, I thought GitLab would handle it still. I'll release a new version. For now you can open issues or tweet to me
sne11ius 8y ago
I like the concept and installed the android app. Unfortunately, I wouldn't call it a beta version. I would say alpha since it seems to ... lack a lot. I was even unable to report a bug via the in-app mail link. Got a response that there is no such project on gitlab ;)
- staltz 8y ago
  Released a new version that fixes that https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044634093181448197 https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044634093181448197
Jahak 8y ago
the source code of the server is closed?
- ahdinosaur 8y ago
  hi Jahak, the server code for each peer in the social network is here: https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/ https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/
- kn8 8y ago
  There isn't really any server, it's based on p2p / device to device log syncing.
ahdinosaur 8y ago
hi, if anyone wants to start with a public social network (instead of building one with your existing friends), here's an invite: many.butt.nz:8008:@o3OcykTU7zdsm+WKoGl74XAoyDI/SWlVbIeyHHinQXQ=.ed25519~Se1dEm/vb/9c/pKs9eqGY7514p0b7KdR5/+myMIKCKo= welcome to the 'verse! ️️
- ahdinosaur 8y ago
  this invite will no longer work, but unfortunately i can't delete the post. find me at dinosaur.is, send me an email or a twitter dm if you want an invite. =^.^=
  - balladeer 8y ago
    What that invite will do? Will it let me join a public network or a private? What does it mean? Is it like an IRC channel or a reddit subreddit (pub/pvt)? Or it will let me just connect to you and some degree of your connections (like a network of people knowing each other -- kind of a pub/pvt club)? I am sorry to ask these (I guess mundane) questions here but I tried the docs and it isn't really clear. Also patchwork desktop app brought my laptop to a standstill so couldn't explore much.
    - ahdinosaur 8y ago
      hi balladeer, the invite is created by my pub (a peer that has a public ip address and is always online), when you use the invite: - the pub will post a message to follow you - you will post a message to follow the pub - you will post a message advertising the pub on your feed basically this mean you will become connected to the pub's social graph (by following the pub) and vise versa the pub will replicate your messages (by the pub following you). also to note, in the future we will change the pub invite story: invites are directed from one user to another user and pubs are only a messenger (%LMYARKcJ5/HVrkfyGo0oSV4j/whFmpeiJlQnvPw53PE=.sha256), and pubs will become just another device controlled by a specific user (%Gwqklkj0b2CBT5tPiz5170NWsPp3xiuLbOImEaG/e+4=.sha256) happy to answer any questions! also, i know the initial sync is pretty intense at the moment (joining most public pubs means joining an active community with years of content!), but once it's done it's done, later you only sync what you missed since you last sync'd.
personjerry 8y ago
As a normal user, I have seen 0 reasons to switch off of Facebook here that I care about, and I don't even understand how it works.
- geff82 8y ago
  When you are part of this Community here at HN, you are no normal user, but, compared to most of the 7 billion other people, member of the tech elite, even when not in SV. As a member of that group, one should be a bit more open to new ideas, way of doing things and exploring where the world might move to. Currently, after years of ignorance, decentralized networks start to become a thing and now is the time to be one of the early explorers of that scene (similar to E-Mail in 1978, PC programming in 1982, net surfing in 1994, App programming in 2008). Sure, the fully surveilled, full commercial networks like Facebook or Twitter still offer a lot of use. But yet we as „tech elitists“ should not ignore the growing subcultural trend to decentralization.
  - personjerry 8y ago
    Ok, as "a member of the tech elite", I still have no interest in joining this after reading the features and description, and have little understanding of what it is exactly (sure it's "decentralized" and "private", but even if I cared / believed it could deliver on these promises, these points have little meaning UX wise -- what the heck is it going to look like / use like on my phone?). I'm mainly making the point that their landing page has done a pretty bad job of explaining and selling the product.
- mleland 8y ago
  What would need to happen is that all of "my" friends would have to start using another service.
  - balladeer 8y ago
    This is what I am struggling with after quitting WhatsApp 2 weeks ago. No one joined Matrix or even Telegram and the only people I can message now are the ones using an iOS device because of iMessage. Not even SMS - no one sends or replies to one.
camdenlock 8y ago
“Off the grid”... but only offering an app for the Google person-tracking platform (Android)...?
- kseistrup 8y ago
  It's also available via the “DAT Installer”. The DAT link is dat://520a00daf0a309bef7722b3f3338854e9da667d01e48dc7b83b118d86354d6d3 The DAT Installer is here: https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer
  - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
    So, only offering an app for Android. :)
    - newnewpdro 8y ago
      You do realize these things take significant time to develop, right?
      - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
        Sure, but the OP was pointing out (albeit somewhat snarkily) that this was only available for Android. The post I responded to said, more or less, "The Android version is also available from this other installer!", which may be good information but isn't really relevant. (Also, this project does look like it's been going on since mid-2014, so I'm not entirely convinced the lack of an iOS client is due to a lack of time. A lack of available/interested iOS developers seems more likely.)
        kseistrup 8y ago
        Perhaps I misunderstood OP, but I thought he was pointing out the irony that the author is offereing an off-grid and offline-first app through a highly centralized outlet. I was merely pointing out that the app is also installable via the DAT installer, which is fully decentralized so that the app is also available for degoogled phones.
sktrdie 8y ago
What about illegal content? Say an identity decides to simply post weekly torrent dumps. Can authorities prevent this?
- fenwick67 8y ago
  It's signed plaintext messages over distributed channels. An authority could shut down a pub, or stop a feed from propogating if they really wanted to, over a channel they control. But they can't really stop every single comms channel.

298 points by staltz 8y ago

I really do like SSB in concept, but I am kinda sad that it seems to fit mainly for social networks. I would like to see something more discussion/topic focused than user centric, but of course with the whole peer to peer and offline aspects.

crypt0x 8y ago
> I would like to see something more discussion/topic focused than user centric hmm.. at it's core it's just a database (that syncs across the friend graph), you might find cel's work on git-ssb and ssb-npm-registry interesting. you could just as well make something like discourse ontop of it. we are currently discussing something more _groupware_ like to remove the dependency on github for issue tracking.
soapdog 8y ago
I've seen multiple implementations of different paradigms on top of SSB. Even though most of the clients are providing you with a lens that makes it look like a social network, there is so much more to it. Check the application tab at http://scuttlebutt.nz http://scuttlebutt.nz The SSB protocol and feed database are both very flexible and can be used in the way you want if someone builds the app for it.
staltz 8y ago
One exciting use case of SSB that might interest you: https://github.com/cn-uofbasel/ssbdrv/ https://github.com/cn-uofbasel/ssbdrv/
gregknicholson 8y ago
You can use it for chess too! https://github.com/Happy0/ssb-chess https://github.com/Happy0/ssb-chess
- ChristianBundy 8y ago
  Honestly the chess keeps me coming back. At first I was excited to be playing chess again, but it's a great way to have a casual chat and get to know each other a bit better. Can't recommend it enough.
  - gregknicholson 8y ago
    I prefer Go to chess, so I'm eagerly awaiting a version of https://github.com/maackle/ssb-igo https://github.com/maackle/ssb-igo that I can just install via Flatpak and use.
  - happynaut 8y ago
    aww, thanks :)
rolleiflex 8y ago
I’m working on exactly that, full time since March or so. About to launch. See a demo walkthrough (2:52m, silent) here. https://vimeo.com/287330735 https://vimeo.com/287330735
marknadal 8y ago
Discussion/topic based, as in like Reddit or HN? Not SSB, but NAB ( https://notabug.io/ https://notabug.io/ ) might be what you are looking for, also offline-first and P2P.

kickscondor 8y ago

One of my issues with Secure Scuttlebutt is that it is difficult to participate unless you already know other people there. I joined and began messaging other users and commenting on the community hashtags - only to discover that no one was going to get my messages until they subscribed to me. This means that I either need to message those users outside of the network - or I need to run into them irl. Is this a feature of SSB or a bug? I mean once I'm in the network and well-entrenched, I could see it being a feature. But how do I even get to that point? (Oh and does Manyverse address this at all? Sorry I don't have Android.)

crypt0x 8y ago
I think this is by design. andre summarizes this as pull vs push architectures. you need to be pulled in by some1. SSB is not supposed to be _yet another global room_ but open a way for many small islands.
staltz 8y ago
This is a good point that I address in a talk (that hasn't yet been published on YouTube), but to summarize: ideally we want SSB to be a decentralized invite-only networks, so that someone has to pull you into their social circles, or you pull in others into yours. It has upsides and downsides, but we think it more naturally corresponds to relationships outside tech. Manyverse is the first SSB app that implements DHT invites: https://gitlab.com/staltz/ssb-dht-invite https://gitlab.com/staltz/ssb-dht-invite and the plan is to make it easier for anyone to invite anyone else, so that we rely less on a single "cluster". We want to get to the point where there are isolated islands of SSB networks. But the point you seem to be talking about is also discovery, e.g. something like a "search" feature for friends. We don't have any idea in mind for that, and we also question whether that's necessary at all, specially as we seek to bring this app to countries with limited or no internet access.
- kickscondor 8y ago
  Thankyou for taking the time to reply to me - it's very good to hear your thoughts and I very much respect what you and the other SSB 'builders' are doing out there. I totally see why you'd want the network to be this way. I can see that there is a good momentum and common interest alive on the network and it's a very strange feeling to be on the network, but unable to participate. In a way, I'm taking advantage of the fact that you're paying attention here on HN - because I cannot reach you on SSB. > Manyverse is the first SSB app that implements DHT invites Ok - this is cool! I can see how SSB/Patchwork/Manyverse could be used to replace old invite-only forums (which I've enjoyed with 'real life' friends in the past.) So, yes, I do think discovery is a huge problem for SSB (and Dat, too) because one of the blissful (and terrible) things about the Web is that arbitrary people can find each other. This seems to be an even bigger problem now that certain networks are massive in scale - so the 'island' approach is one that excites me. Not sure about 'isolated', though. With Patchwork, I begin to wonder why I'm able to read things that I can't respond to - and then I realize that I probably don't want to anyway. I may just not understand the whole thing tho. :)

b2ccb2 8y ago

To anyone using a degoogled Android phone: A F-Droid release IS planned [1]. [1] https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044569401595514880 https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044569401595514880

staltz 8y ago
And in case people want the APK from other means, here in the source: https://gitlab.com/staltz/mmmmm-mobile/tags/v0.18.9-21.beta https://gitlab.com/staltz/mmmmm-mobile/tags/v0.18.9-21.beta Can also be installed via Dat Installer https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer (yep that's right, you can install a decentralized app through a decentralized app)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
imhoguy 8y ago
Installs from F-Droid > Yalp Store [0] too. https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstor...

crypt0x 8y ago

podcastphile people new to the concept of ssb might find this episode interesting: https://stealthisshow.com/s04e04/ https://stealthisshow.com/s04e04/

travisluis 8y ago

Can anybody explain the important differences between this and Briar/Bramble[1]? [1] https://dymaxion.org/essays/briarvision.html https://dymaxion.org/essays/briarvision.html previously discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18027949

gregknicholson 8y ago
How does Scuttlebutt (and Briar) relate to [Cabal]? [Cabal]: https://cabal-club.github.io/ https://cabal-club.github.io/ There seems to be a large overlap between the SSB and Cabal communities.
- ahdinosaur 8y ago
  hi gregknicholson, i'll try! =^.^= Scuttlebutt is a social network platform where each uxer has a personal diary where each page is a signed message that links to the previous page. to receive updates on someone's diary, you follow the person. on each page, content is free-form. the most common message type is 'post', but there's a chat app (similar to Cabal) that uses message type 'scat_message': https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#scat https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#scat. Cabal is a chat app, built using the Dat protocol (https://datproject.org/ https://datproject.org/). Dat has a similar architecture, except the diaries (sigchains) are centered on content rather than people. so to receive updates on a diary, you follow the _content_, which in Cabal is a chat group similar to a Slack group.
  - e12e 8y ago
    I looked at the faq, but it's rather non-technical. Is there a security/privacy faq? My initial reading is that it's a lot like Twitter or things shouted out in a pub that films and archives everything that goes on? : no expectation of privacy, no secure private messages, no deniabilty? Ed: looks like https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/blob/master/README.md has a bit more meat. Still happy to hear any comments. Especially I assume any recipient can prove to a third party that someone said something?

TACIXAT 8y ago

I've installed this, if anyone wants a friend, email me an invite thing or I can email you one. Email in bio.

staltz 8y ago
Some people in the community have generous internet servers (pubs) also giving invites to people, but that can only work up until some point. Here's a way to easily setup a server yourself on DigitalOcean: http://butt.nz/install?url=https://github.com/ahdinosaur/ssb-pub http://butt.nz/install?url=https://github.com/ahdinosaur/ssb...
- TACIXAT 8y ago
  I have a generous email.
  - ChristianBundy 8y ago
    https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/wiki/Pub-Servers https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/wiki/Pub-Servers

ndarilek 8y ago

Does SSB still make it impossible to share a single identity across multiple devices? (I.e. I'd like to log into my identity from my laptop but see that same identity's feed on my phone.) I want to participate, but periodically I check https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices.html https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/faq/applications/multiple-devices... and it hasn't changed, and for me, having a single device to which the entirety of my identity is tied is a non-starter. Even so, the tech seems interesting, and I hope that limitation goes away one day.

sktrdie 8y ago
Wow that seems like a pretty weird limitation. Wouldn't you be able to use the same password on a different device?
- lucideer 8y ago
  SSB uses a simple immutable ledger per identity; merging isn't something that's supported architecturally. Their plan is to support this at a client level: you create multiple identities with metadata indicating that all are the same person on different devices, which clients can then use to group them appropriately in whatever way makes sense. UX wise, it may make sense for some clients to obscure this architecture from new users somewhat and treat them visually as the same identity, but that's down the line (and I'm sure some purist clients will never want to do this).
  - staltz 8y ago
    And progress has been to get there with the recent v3 of [ssb-friends](https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/ https://github.com/ssbc/ssb-friends/)
    - marknadal 8y ago
      I've been telling Dominic and Juan (even Feross, Mathias, etc.) that there is a simple fix for this with CRDTs (GUN's or not) since 2014 - Dominic (SSB) has been the most cutting edge, he adopted some CRDTs I think for log relay, why not also for identity? Skip to 11:45 into the video, the algorithm/cryptography for it isn't that hard either: https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorithms-for-a-decentralized-webthe-gun-stack/ https://www.decentralizedweb.net/videos/talk-better-algorith... you could do it in SSB without needing gun!

superkuh 8y ago

This actually sounds like a pretty great idea. Self hosting content is the only reliable way to prevent the perverse incentives and costs of centralization. But only having mobile apps for it makes it useless.

gregknicholson 8y ago
Then you're in luck! Patchwork is a fairly-mature desktop Scuttlebutt app. https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#patchwork https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications#patchwork
- superkuh 8y ago
  I know I'm moving the goalposts here but do you know of any native applications instead of javascript web apps packaged with a headless browser?
  - nanomonkey 8y ago
    There are a number of applications built upon the scuttlebutt protocol, most use some nodejs somewhere. https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications
  - crypt0x 8y ago
    Out of curiosity: which UI toolkit would you like to see? Qt/gnome/..? There now is a python and Go base and rust is starting as well.
  - fenwick67 8y ago
    All of the actual applications are listed here, there's nothing with winforms or whatever: https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications https://www.scuttlebutt.nz/applications The core implementation is written in javascript so it's not surprising it uses Electron, it's a pragmatic option.
    - jpetso 8y ago

ron0c 8y ago

But what if your friends are boring?

ChristianBundy 8y ago
Make new ones! But really though, this is the first social network where I've been able to deeply connect with complete strangers. Some of my friends are on there too, but the sense of community is strong and contagious.
jeswin 8y ago
The default configuration syncs up to 3 connections away (friends of friends of friends). So you'd be able to find lots of interesting content and discussions in the extended network. In Patchwork (the most popular client), just go to the menu item labeled "Extended Network". Also, you could join as many "pubs" as you like - based on your interests. You'll start receiving feeds from other people who share the pub, and their friends as well.
davidcollantes 8y ago
You seek to add those non-friends who aren't. :-)
e12e 8y ago
Not to worry, it's a social network. They'll pretend to be interesting.

fareesh 8y ago

What are some solutions to posting something that you later regret? Pretty much nothing is my guess since it's like sending an email and regretting it later. Does the sync allow for deletion too?

AndrewSChapman 8y ago
It sounds a lot like a blockchain: "Your log is immutable and message order is preserved - every message+previous_hash is signed" which means no deletions, ever.
- fenwick67 8y ago
  You can append a "delete" message and the clients won't display it going forward. The data is still there though.
  - ChristianBundy 8y ago
    There are solutions to this (check the #offchain-content channel) in the works, but currently it's true: anything you post will continue to be replicated by your friends.
ahdinosaur 8y ago
hi fareesh, as with real-life, you can't take back what you said, you can only apologize (in a new post). :) there's talk of moving message content out of the sigchain so you could "delete" (ask your peers to delete) a post: %QJEpN8LN1t3BrIkUQ3WoOMWRsMArbVUZCpTeBYcuqfw=.sha256
- _kwmj 8y ago
  To be fair to real life there's a reasonable chance of forgetting :)
marknadal 8y ago
As far as I know, only (disclaimer: mine) GUN supports mutable (which enables deleting or changing data) updates in a P2P/decentralized network. Other systems all use some variant of immutable data structures (hashes, append-only logs, DAGs, etc.) vs CRDTs which can do immutable OR mutable data.

eximius 8y ago

Hm, if the author happens to be on here: I can't seem to email bug reports. "Unfortunately, your email to GitLab could not be processed. We couldn't find the project. Please check if there's any typo." Also, are issues turned off on the repo?

staltz 8y ago
Hi! Issues are on: https://gitlab.com/staltz/manyverse/issues https://gitlab.com/staltz/manyverse/issues The email bug report got broken when I renamed the app from mmmmm-mobile to manyverse, I thought GitLab would handle it still. I'll release a new version. For now you can open issues or tweet to me

sne11ius 8y ago

I like the concept and installed the android app. Unfortunately, I wouldn't call it a beta version. I would say alpha since it seems to ... lack a lot. I was even unable to report a bug via the in-app mail link. Got a response that there is no such project on gitlab ;)

staltz 8y ago
Released a new version that fixes that https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044634093181448197 https://twitter.com/manyver_se/status/1044634093181448197

Jahak 8y ago

the source code of the server is closed?

ahdinosaur 8y ago
hi Jahak, the server code for each peer in the social network is here: https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/ https://github.com/ssbc/scuttlebot/
kn8 8y ago
There isn't really any server, it's based on p2p / device to device log syncing.

ahdinosaur 8y ago

hi, if anyone wants to start with a public social network (instead of building one with your existing friends), here's an invite: many.butt.nz:8008:@o3OcykTU7zdsm+WKoGl74XAoyDI/SWlVbIeyHHinQXQ=.ed25519~Se1dEm/vb/9c/pKs9eqGY7514p0b7KdR5/+myMIKCKo= welcome to the 'verse! ️️

ahdinosaur 8y ago
this invite will no longer work, but unfortunately i can't delete the post. find me at dinosaur.is, send me an email or a twitter dm if you want an invite. =^.^=
- balladeer 8y ago
  What that invite will do? Will it let me join a public network or a private? What does it mean? Is it like an IRC channel or a reddit subreddit (pub/pvt)? Or it will let me just connect to you and some degree of your connections (like a network of people knowing each other -- kind of a pub/pvt club)? I am sorry to ask these (I guess mundane) questions here but I tried the docs and it isn't really clear. Also patchwork desktop app brought my laptop to a standstill so couldn't explore much.
  - ahdinosaur 8y ago
    hi balladeer, the invite is created by my pub (a peer that has a public ip address and is always online), when you use the invite: - the pub will post a message to follow you - you will post a message to follow the pub - you will post a message advertising the pub on your feed basically this mean you will become connected to the pub's social graph (by following the pub) and vise versa the pub will replicate your messages (by the pub following you). also to note, in the future we will change the pub invite story: invites are directed from one user to another user and pubs are only a messenger (%LMYARKcJ5/HVrkfyGo0oSV4j/whFmpeiJlQnvPw53PE=.sha256), and pubs will become just another device controlled by a specific user (%Gwqklkj0b2CBT5tPiz5170NWsPp3xiuLbOImEaG/e+4=.sha256) happy to answer any questions! also, i know the initial sync is pretty intense at the moment (joining most public pubs means joining an active community with years of content!), but once it's done it's done, later you only sync what you missed since you last sync'd.

personjerry 8y ago

As a normal user, I have seen 0 reasons to switch off of Facebook here that I care about, and I don't even understand how it works.

geff82 8y ago
When you are part of this Community here at HN, you are no normal user, but, compared to most of the 7 billion other people, member of the tech elite, even when not in SV. As a member of that group, one should be a bit more open to new ideas, way of doing things and exploring where the world might move to. Currently, after years of ignorance, decentralized networks start to become a thing and now is the time to be one of the early explorers of that scene (similar to E-Mail in 1978, PC programming in 1982, net surfing in 1994, App programming in 2008). Sure, the fully surveilled, full commercial networks like Facebook or Twitter still offer a lot of use. But yet we as „tech elitists“ should not ignore the growing subcultural trend to decentralization.
- personjerry 8y ago
  Ok, as "a member of the tech elite", I still have no interest in joining this after reading the features and description, and have little understanding of what it is exactly (sure it's "decentralized" and "private", but even if I cared / believed it could deliver on these promises, these points have little meaning UX wise -- what the heck is it going to look like / use like on my phone?). I'm mainly making the point that their landing page has done a pretty bad job of explaining and selling the product.
mleland 8y ago
What would need to happen is that all of "my" friends would have to start using another service.
- balladeer 8y ago
  This is what I am struggling with after quitting WhatsApp 2 weeks ago. No one joined Matrix or even Telegram and the only people I can message now are the ones using an iOS device because of iMessage. Not even SMS - no one sends or replies to one.

camdenlock 8y ago

“Off the grid”... but only offering an app for the Google person-tracking platform (Android)...?

kseistrup 8y ago
It's also available via the “DAT Installer”. The DAT link is dat://520a00daf0a309bef7722b3f3338854e9da667d01e48dc7b83b118d86354d6d3 The DAT Installer is here: https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer https://github.com/staltz/dat-installer
- chipotle_coyote 8y ago
  So, only offering an app for Android. :)
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    You do realize these things take significant time to develop, right?
    - chipotle_coyote 8y ago
      Sure, but the OP was pointing out (albeit somewhat snarkily) that this was only available for Android. The post I responded to said, more or less, "The Android version is also available from this other installer!", which may be good information but isn't really relevant. (Also, this project does look like it's been going on since mid-2014, so I'm not entirely convinced the lack of an iOS client is due to a lack of time. A lack of available/interested iOS developers seems more likely.)
      - kseistrup 8y ago
        Perhaps I misunderstood OP, but I thought he was pointing out the irony that the author is offereing an off-grid and offline-first app through a highly centralized outlet. I was merely pointing out that the app is also installable via the DAT installer, which is fully decentralized so that the app is also available for degoogled phones.

sktrdie 8y ago

What about illegal content? Say an identity decides to simply post weekly torrent dumps. Can authorities prevent this?

fenwick67 8y ago
It's signed plaintext messages over distributed channels. An authority could shut down a pub, or stop a feed from propogating if they really wanted to, over a channel they control. But they can't really stop every single comms channel.