4 ms·

it was no linked to the protocol and they wanted to keep it under wraps for a good reason.

nonbel 8y ago
From that link: >"a concern that people might have wrongly linked the therapy, which involved nerve stimulation, to the 35-year-old’s death from a lung infection." The vagus nerve also innervates the lungs, and performing a surgery to stimulate it could impact the lungs or immune system in general... so there is definitely reason to suspect a link. I mean he was kept alive for 15 years apparently and then died relatively shortly after this procedure. Just because there is no way to verify anything doesn't mean you can conclude "no link". If the doctors/researchers did actually make this claim (as opposed to the journalist), I would suspect this story about restored consciousness is more likely total BS than not. EDIT: There is a quote later on coming directly from the doctor, so looks like this study is probably BS.
- thomasfedb 8y ago
  I think you're wrong to link the implant to the lung infection on the basis that the vagus nerve "innervates the lungs" - which is a best an oversimplification. It's a very unlikely route for infection compared to standard hospital acquired or ventilator associated pneumonia. I'm a student doctor.
  - nonbel 8y ago
    I didn't "link" anything. I proposed a few possible links. And you don't think stimulating the vagus nerve could have some effect on the lung (eg secretions) which can result in infection? Here is a random article that gives plausibility to such a link: Vagus Nerve through α7 nAChR Modulates Lung Infection and Inflammation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4127262/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4127262/ I am certain there are many, many research articles like that.
    - thomasfedb 8y ago
      You suggested that the doctors were wrong to dismiss a causal relationship - I'll call that "link" and you can call or whatever you like. Don't weasel. Could the implant have had an impact on the infection? Yes, sure. In medicine the answer to "is it possible… ?" is always "yes". But is it likely to be a significant factor, I'd say not.
      - nonbel 8y ago
        >"You suggested that the doctors were wrong to dismiss a causal relationship - I'll call that "link" and you can call or whatever you like. Don't weasel." Where did I weasel? I said you can't disprove a link based on that information. They concluded no link... >'Could the implant have had an impact on the infection? Yes, sure."In medicine the answer to "is it possible… ?" is always "yes".' Yes, exactly my point. >"But is it likely to be a significant factor, I'd say not." This is a totally different thing than concluding "no link", as did the original doctors. But why not? They guy was kept alive for 15 years, they started doing this new procedure, and he was dead within a few months. Also, its reported elsewhere that vagus nerve activity, the mechanism by which this procedure is supposed to work, affects lung infection rates...
    - 14 8y ago
      I am going to have to agree with you and say that I too feel that it would be irresponsible for the study to conclude that there is "no" risk. I unsuccessfully tried to find out the side effects the clients experienced during this particular trial, but other patients who receive vagus nerve implants for conditions such as epilepsy or depression, they experienced many side effects such as coughing, breathing problems and difficulty swallowing. To me it seems that those three side effects alone could put a person in a coma at risk of aspiration and thus lung infection. https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/vagus-nerve-stimulation/about/pac-20384565 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/vagus-nerve-stim...
      - close04 8y ago
        > We respected the family decision to not communicate about the event You should know there's no "winning" when it comes to media. You'd have seen another article saying "Doctors don't obey family's wishes, broadcast death of patient". But I can understand why the doctors wouldn't want to share this with the world. The general audience is 99.9% made up of title readers and googlers. And since public opinion matters in such cases they were all but guaranteed to blow the research. And speaking of googlers, a word of advice for anybody who's not a doctor: finding "links" using Google and a handful of vague details in an article is a useless endeavor. You'll only conclude what you'd want/like the cause to be and even if you somehow get it right it will still be for the wrong reasons. P.S. > there is "no" risk I understood it as "there is no link between the study and the death". And one easy way to conclude this is to positively link the death to something else.

From that link: >"a concern that people might have wrongly linked the therapy, which involved nerve stimulation, to the 35-year-old’s death from a lung infection." The vagus nerve also innervates the lungs, and performing a surgery to stimulate it could impact the lungs or immune system in general... so there is definitely reason to suspect a link. I mean he was kept alive for 15 years apparently and then died relatively shortly after this procedure. Just because there is no way to verify anything doesn't mean you can conclude "no link". If the doctors/researchers did actually make this claim (as opposed to the journalist), I would suspect this story about restored consciousness is more likely total BS than not. EDIT: There is a quote later on coming directly from the doctor, so looks like this study is probably BS.

thomasfedb 8y ago
I think you're wrong to link the implant to the lung infection on the basis that the vagus nerve "innervates the lungs" - which is a best an oversimplification. It's a very unlikely route for infection compared to standard hospital acquired or ventilator associated pneumonia. I'm a student doctor.
- nonbel 8y ago
  I didn't "link" anything. I proposed a few possible links. And you don't think stimulating the vagus nerve could have some effect on the lung (eg secretions) which can result in infection? Here is a random article that gives plausibility to such a link: Vagus Nerve through α7 nAChR Modulates Lung Infection and Inflammation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4127262/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4127262/ I am certain there are many, many research articles like that.
  - thomasfedb 8y ago
    You suggested that the doctors were wrong to dismiss a causal relationship - I'll call that "link" and you can call or whatever you like. Don't weasel. Could the implant have had an impact on the infection? Yes, sure. In medicine the answer to "is it possible… ?" is always "yes". But is it likely to be a significant factor, I'd say not.
    - nonbel 8y ago
      >"You suggested that the doctors were wrong to dismiss a causal relationship - I'll call that "link" and you can call or whatever you like. Don't weasel." Where did I weasel? I said you can't disprove a link based on that information. They concluded no link... >'Could the implant have had an impact on the infection? Yes, sure."In medicine the answer to "is it possible… ?" is always "yes".' Yes, exactly my point. >"But is it likely to be a significant factor, I'd say not." This is a totally different thing than concluding "no link", as did the original doctors. But why not? They guy was kept alive for 15 years, they started doing this new procedure, and he was dead within a few months. Also, its reported elsewhere that vagus nerve activity, the mechanism by which this procedure is supposed to work, affects lung infection rates...
  - 14 8y ago
    I am going to have to agree with you and say that I too feel that it would be irresponsible for the study to conclude that there is "no" risk. I unsuccessfully tried to find out the side effects the clients experienced during this particular trial, but other patients who receive vagus nerve implants for conditions such as epilepsy or depression, they experienced many side effects such as coughing, breathing problems and difficulty swallowing. To me it seems that those three side effects alone could put a person in a coma at risk of aspiration and thus lung infection. https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/vagus-nerve-stimulation/about/pac-20384565 https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/vagus-nerve-stim...
    - close04 8y ago
      > We respected the family decision to not communicate about the event You should know there's no "winning" when it comes to media. You'd have seen another article saying "Doctors don't obey family's wishes, broadcast death of patient". But I can understand why the doctors wouldn't want to share this with the world. The general audience is 99.9% made up of title readers and googlers. And since public opinion matters in such cases they were all but guaranteed to blow the research. And speaking of googlers, a word of advice for anybody who's not a doctor: finding "links" using Google and a handful of vague details in an article is a useless endeavor. You'll only conclude what you'd want/like the cause to be and even if you somehow get it right it will still be for the wrong reasons. P.S. > there is "no" risk I understood it as "there is no link between the study and the death". And one easy way to conclude this is to positively link the death to something else.