11 ms·

China’s Giant Market for Really Tiny Cars

41 points by prostoalex 8y ago

neonate 8y ago
http://archive.is/OU42o http://archive.is/OU42o
- harias 8y ago
  Adding outline.com before the actual URL works oo : https://www.outline.com/www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-giant-market-for-tiny-cars-1537538585 https://www.outline.com/www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-giant-ma...
csours 8y ago
1. Oh my god those are so cute! It's like a kid's car, but for adults. I can only imagine trying to fit in one, my head would probably have to be stuck out the window. 2. “It’s safe,” said Ms. Li: “It doesn’t go fast enough to be dangerous.” - Oh no, not good at all! It doesn't matter how fast you are going, it matters how fast the other guy is going! The crash safety of modern cars is not an accident. It takes a lot of money to do the engineering, buy the proper materials, and put it together correctly.
- duxup 8y ago
  Maybe they're using lap belts but the little kids certainly weren't buckled in :(
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >It doesn't matter how fast you are going, it matters how fast the other guy is going! The crash safety of modern cars is not an accident. It takes a lot of money to do the engineering, buy the proper materials, and put it together correctly. I think the safety complaint is irrelevant when the alternative is a bike or moped. It does also very much matter how fast you're going because a huge fraction of crashes only involve one vehicle.
  - syntaxing 8y ago
    I think it concerning because people probably think its more safe than it actually is. This is definitely no safer than a bike or moped but the outer car housing gives a much stronger false sense of safety for the user.
    - romwell 8y ago
      >This is definitely no safer than a bike or moped Any tri- or quadricycle is most definitely safer than a bike or a moped. You can't fall off it when it's not moving, for starters.
      - Doxin 8y ago
        On the other hand you can, for example, get trapped inside it while it is on fire. There's tradeoffs here and it's not at all obvious which of the two options is safer.
- wang0109 8y ago
  I'd say it's good enough. The average speed on a town road is like 30 to 35kph (or 18mph), much "safer" than an ebike/bike which is the primary peer traffic in these kind of places. On faster roads, these guys drive "on the shoulder" so to speak, due to their speed they cannot stay in the main road.
syntaxing 8y ago
I like how the mother is holding the child while driving around the 1 min mark of the video. That being said, how is the charging infrastructure in China (In the Shan Dong area)? I know the more populated area is more apartment style than house style. Edit: Interesting to see the car in the rest of video. I like how it uses 10 Lead Acid Batteries for the power bank.Though is concerning since it looks like an aluminum box with wheels with no safety. The extremely short bumper zone is so concerning (and no air bags). But at least its affordable enough for people to buy.
- forkLding 8y ago
  Hard to answer that one as Shandong province is the most populous province in China. Its also the third richest, the eastern parts especially so while other parts of Shandong not so much.
singularity2001 8y ago
PS: There are now 200,000,000 electro scooters in use in China.
- kurthr 8y ago
  Many of those are actually trikes used for moving small loads around. I don't know that the 200M number is right, but at least in Shanghai and Beijing the 2Cycle gas scooters were banned, and that's not the case in the interior provinces.
  - singularity2001 8y ago
    I just read 200M today, before I had 100M in my notes: https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheelers-china-promise-progress-potential/ https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheele...
clairity 8y ago
and in the US, our only option is the smart fortwo, which is starts at $25K. granted, it's better engineered, but i doubt it's 16 times better.
- syntaxing 8y ago
  It actually might be better than 16x...Engineering (especially mechanical) takes a lot of time and upfront money. For instant, the smart car has a highly rated roll cage for safety [1]. It takes a lot of time and money to design and get certifications. Companies need to recover their cost somehow and make a profit. [1] https://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm https://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm
  - kurthr 8y ago
    Exactly, if your medical bills can easily exceed the cost of the car, safety should be a bigger concern.
- devy 8y ago
  I am not sure if it's true or not but I have anecdotally heard from a local car dealer that exported large volumes of compliance EVs to EU telling me that Mercedes actually owns the lithium battery in the Smart fortwo eletric drive as a purchaser you are "leasing" the lithium ion battery. So the actually cost of the vehicle is more like upper bound of 30k, close to 40k range, far exceeding the MSRP.
- jaclaz 8y ago
  In Europe smaller "cars" (they are not actually cars) do exist, they are limited in speed/power (they can be electric or gasoline or diesel) to be compliant to the Law and they can be driven (it depends I believe in which states) either without license or with a "simplified" driving license that you can get as early as 14 years (or 16 years for the more performing types). BUT they tend to be very expensive (when compared to what they offer) and - basically - are mainly "toys" for rich kids or in some cases, used by people that for one reason or the other cannot have a "full" driving license. Only as an example/reference: https://www.aixam.com/en/ https://www.aixam.com/en/
fh973 8y ago
And they look like a BMW, Mini or Jeep!
Tiktaalik 8y ago
Meanwhile in North America we have a arms race where everyone is buying bigger and bigger trucks for "safety" reasons, even though they're proven to be more wildly more lethal to pedestrians in collisions. There's no end in sight and I don't know how we turn around from this trend, but I do feel that NA cities would be a lot safer and more efficient if we and our cities were trending toward the compact sort of small kei cars (and compact, thin streets) that they have in Japan.
- syntaxing 8y ago
  Agreed, but I am not sure how receptive small cars are in the Americas just from a practicality point of view. I've sat in many vans/sedans and they feel much more cramped. My family tends to have a significantly smaller frame and we still feel cramped. I cannot imagine a typical American family fitting comfortably in there for a 10+ hr roadtrip.
  - romwell 8y ago
    >I cannot imagine a typical American family fitting comfortably in there for a 10+ hr roadtrip. From my experience, a Honda Fit is more than enough for 2 people + more stuff than two people may possibly need for a week-long road trip. And it's the same length as a VW Beetle New. The average US household size is about 2.5[1], and the median is 2[2]. Again, to emphasize: over half the country are either living by themselves, or with one other person. So, a typical American family would do well with a subcompact. [1]https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h... [2]https://www.statista.com/statistics/242189/disitribution-of-households-in-the-us-by-household-size/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/242189/disitribution-of-...
  - thucydidesofusa 8y ago
    Curious. I'm a large person - 6'4" and I weight train extensively and my experience has been that pickup trucks and cars are the only vehicles that can comfortably fit in. And I'm usually in agreement with other large people. CUVs have a squished passenger compartment and the seating is very high off the floor pan. 4 people like me could comfortably fit inside a Corolla or a Civic but not a RAV4 or CRV. My hunch is the CUVs have some amazing appeal for people who don't want hassle in general and don't care about the additional costs. And some people think they're cool. It's easier to grab stuff out of the back of a SUV than rummage through a sedan's trunk although they're comparably voluminous And if your knees are weak, it's nice to shimmy into a CUV than squat into a car. But you see so many people with large guts schlepping themselves into CUVs and scraping their carcases out of the seats they're sweat-welded too and the things loose their cool image. And you can run winter tires and get your accord through the snowy and icy weather or you can just pay the extra money for AWD and let Jesus take the wheel as needed.
rasz 8y ago
France has VSP (voiture sans permis) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 , Italy had something similar for age 14 and up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorised_quadricycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorised_quadricycle China is simply getting more wealthy. Eastern europe went thru similar transition after the end of Russian occupation (1989). In Poland we had Fiat 126p selling at similar ~$1500 in 1992. Very popular due to price, but soon replaced by $2500 Fiat Cinquecento in 1992 as most popular, then Tico, Seicento, and Lanos. It went bigger and more expensive with time, Fabia, Panda and finally Octavia being the most popular cars. Chinese dont buy those cars because small and electric, they buy them because thats all they can afford.
baybal2 8y ago
Sorry, but China is likely heading the other way. China is the only market in the world with taste for American car brands... G-Wagen or Buick SUV or something even bigger is the logical apex of what locals consider a "proper car"
wink 8y ago
Interesting, but besides from shopping trips where I don't want to transport 10-20kg.. I don't see the point for myself. I'm going to work by bike most of the year and if I use a car I'm usually going 100 - 1000km. (Not saying I won't take the car out of sheer laziness sometimes, but I wouldn't buy one of these) Might actually be ok for 2 person trips in the city, though.
baybal2 8y ago
On topic of LSEVs bans: some cities simply ban "cars smaller than x and y in width and length" because poor people drive them.

41 points by prostoalex 8y ago

neonate 8y ago

http://archive.is/OU42o http://archive.is/OU42o

harias 8y ago
Adding outline.com before the actual URL works oo : https://www.outline.com/www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-giant-market-for-tiny-cars-1537538585 https://www.outline.com/www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-giant-ma...

csours 8y ago

1. Oh my god those are so cute! It's like a kid's car, but for adults. I can only imagine trying to fit in one, my head would probably have to be stuck out the window. 2. “It’s safe,” said Ms. Li: “It doesn’t go fast enough to be dangerous.” - Oh no, not good at all! It doesn't matter how fast you are going, it matters how fast the other guy is going! The crash safety of modern cars is not an accident. It takes a lot of money to do the engineering, buy the proper materials, and put it together correctly.

duxup 8y ago
Maybe they're using lap belts but the little kids certainly weren't buckled in :(
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>It doesn't matter how fast you are going, it matters how fast the other guy is going! The crash safety of modern cars is not an accident. It takes a lot of money to do the engineering, buy the proper materials, and put it together correctly. I think the safety complaint is irrelevant when the alternative is a bike or moped. It does also very much matter how fast you're going because a huge fraction of crashes only involve one vehicle.
- syntaxing 8y ago
  I think it concerning because people probably think its more safe than it actually is. This is definitely no safer than a bike or moped but the outer car housing gives a much stronger false sense of safety for the user.
  - romwell 8y ago
    >This is definitely no safer than a bike or moped Any tri- or quadricycle is most definitely safer than a bike or a moped. You can't fall off it when it's not moving, for starters.
    - Doxin 8y ago
      On the other hand you can, for example, get trapped inside it while it is on fire. There's tradeoffs here and it's not at all obvious which of the two options is safer.
wang0109 8y ago
I'd say it's good enough. The average speed on a town road is like 30 to 35kph (or 18mph), much "safer" than an ebike/bike which is the primary peer traffic in these kind of places. On faster roads, these guys drive "on the shoulder" so to speak, due to their speed they cannot stay in the main road.

syntaxing 8y ago

I like how the mother is holding the child while driving around the 1 min mark of the video. That being said, how is the charging infrastructure in China (In the Shan Dong area)? I know the more populated area is more apartment style than house style. Edit: Interesting to see the car in the rest of video. I like how it uses 10 Lead Acid Batteries for the power bank.Though is concerning since it looks like an aluminum box with wheels with no safety. The extremely short bumper zone is so concerning (and no air bags). But at least its affordable enough for people to buy.

forkLding 8y ago
Hard to answer that one as Shandong province is the most populous province in China. Its also the third richest, the eastern parts especially so while other parts of Shandong not so much.

singularity2001 8y ago

PS: There are now 200,000,000 electro scooters in use in China.

kurthr 8y ago
Many of those are actually trikes used for moving small loads around. I don't know that the 200M number is right, but at least in Shanghai and Beijing the 2Cycle gas scooters were banned, and that's not the case in the interior provinces.
- singularity2001 8y ago
  I just read 200M today, before I had 100M in my notes: https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheelers-china-promise-progress-potential/ https://www.accessmagazine.org/fall-2010/electric-two-wheele...

clairity 8y ago

and in the US, our only option is the smart fortwo, which is starts at $25K. granted, it's better engineered, but i doubt it's 16 times better.

syntaxing 8y ago
It actually might be better than 16x...Engineering (especially mechanical) takes a lot of time and upfront money. For instant, the smart car has a highly rated roll cage for safety [1]. It takes a lot of time and money to design and get certifications. Companies need to recover their cost somehow and make a profit. [1] https://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm https://auto.howstuffworks.com/smart-car1.htm
- kurthr 8y ago
  Exactly, if your medical bills can easily exceed the cost of the car, safety should be a bigger concern.
devy 8y ago
I am not sure if it's true or not but I have anecdotally heard from a local car dealer that exported large volumes of compliance EVs to EU telling me that Mercedes actually owns the lithium battery in the Smart fortwo eletric drive as a purchaser you are "leasing" the lithium ion battery. So the actually cost of the vehicle is more like upper bound of 30k, close to 40k range, far exceeding the MSRP.
jaclaz 8y ago
In Europe smaller "cars" (they are not actually cars) do exist, they are limited in speed/power (they can be electric or gasoline or diesel) to be compliant to the Law and they can be driven (it depends I believe in which states) either without license or with a "simplified" driving license that you can get as early as 14 years (or 16 years for the more performing types). BUT they tend to be very expensive (when compared to what they offer) and - basically - are mainly "toys" for rich kids or in some cases, used by people that for one reason or the other cannot have a "full" driving license. Only as an example/reference: https://www.aixam.com/en/ https://www.aixam.com/en/

fh973 8y ago

And they look like a BMW, Mini or Jeep!

Tiktaalik 8y ago

Meanwhile in North America we have a arms race where everyone is buying bigger and bigger trucks for "safety" reasons, even though they're proven to be more wildly more lethal to pedestrians in collisions. There's no end in sight and I don't know how we turn around from this trend, but I do feel that NA cities would be a lot safer and more efficient if we and our cities were trending toward the compact sort of small kei cars (and compact, thin streets) that they have in Japan.

syntaxing 8y ago
Agreed, but I am not sure how receptive small cars are in the Americas just from a practicality point of view. I've sat in many vans/sedans and they feel much more cramped. My family tends to have a significantly smaller frame and we still feel cramped. I cannot imagine a typical American family fitting comfortably in there for a 10+ hr roadtrip.
- romwell 8y ago
  >I cannot imagine a typical American family fitting comfortably in there for a 10+ hr roadtrip. From my experience, a Honda Fit is more than enough for 2 people + more stuff than two people may possibly need for a week-long road trip. And it's the same length as a VW Beetle New. The average US household size is about 2.5[1], and the median is 2[2]. Again, to emphasize: over half the country are either living by themselves, or with one other person. So, a typical American family would do well with a subcompact. [1]https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-households-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h... [2]https://www.statista.com/statistics/242189/disitribution-of-households-in-the-us-by-household-size/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/242189/disitribution-of-...
- thucydidesofusa 8y ago
  Curious. I'm a large person - 6'4" and I weight train extensively and my experience has been that pickup trucks and cars are the only vehicles that can comfortably fit in. And I'm usually in agreement with other large people. CUVs have a squished passenger compartment and the seating is very high off the floor pan. 4 people like me could comfortably fit inside a Corolla or a Civic but not a RAV4 or CRV. My hunch is the CUVs have some amazing appeal for people who don't want hassle in general and don't care about the additional costs. And some people think they're cool. It's easier to grab stuff out of the back of a SUV than rummage through a sedan's trunk although they're comparably voluminous And if your knees are weak, it's nice to shimmy into a CUV than squat into a car. But you see so many people with large guts schlepping themselves into CUVs and scraping their carcases out of the seats they're sweat-welded too and the things loose their cool image. And you can run winter tires and get your accord through the snowy and icy weather or you can just pay the extra money for AWD and let Jesus take the wheel as needed.

rasz 8y ago

France has VSP (voiture sans permis) https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35210572 , Italy had something similar for age 14 and up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorised_quadricycle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorised_quadricycle China is simply getting more wealthy. Eastern europe went thru similar transition after the end of Russian occupation (1989). In Poland we had Fiat 126p selling at similar ~$1500 in 1992. Very popular due to price, but soon replaced by $2500 Fiat Cinquecento in 1992 as most popular, then Tico, Seicento, and Lanos. It went bigger and more expensive with time, Fabia, Panda and finally Octavia being the most popular cars. Chinese dont buy those cars because small and electric, they buy them because thats all they can afford.

baybal2 8y ago

Sorry, but China is likely heading the other way. China is the only market in the world with taste for American car brands... G-Wagen or Buick SUV or something even bigger is the logical apex of what locals consider a "proper car"

wink 8y ago

Interesting, but besides from shopping trips where I don't want to transport 10-20kg.. I don't see the point for myself. I'm going to work by bike most of the year and if I use a car I'm usually going 100 - 1000km. (Not saying I won't take the car out of sheer laziness sometimes, but I wouldn't buy one of these) Might actually be ok for 2 person trips in the city, though.

baybal2 8y ago

On topic of LSEVs bans: some cities simply ban "cars smaller than x and y in width and length" because poor people drive them.