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>Honestly I think it might be time to phase out teaching imperative and object-oriented programming. I have seen plenty of universities teach Java and C++, hav

>Honestly I think it might be time to phase out teaching imperative and object-oriented programming. I have seen plenty of universities teach Java and C++, haven't seen any that teach actual OOP. James Coplien aptly calls the current paradigm "class oriented programming".

outworlder 8y ago
It triggers me to no end when I watch an introductory course, for people with no previous exposure to any programming language, and the teacher starts with "public static void main()" In order to understand it, you need to have a good grasp of classes, static methods, access controls. This is usually followed up by a request to ignore the entire line, which is one of the worst habits you can have as a developer. Then you have to compile this. It used to be the case that people would copy and paste command line excerpts (bad habit!), but now they will get a pre-configured "IDE" where they can punch the compile button (ok, but I have met plenty of professionals who never left this stage). Instead, they could avoid the whole thing by using something else, say, Python, or even Javascript. In both cases you can quickly drop to a repl and start trying stuff out. Once the basics are there, then you can proceed to object orientation. And perhaps even to Java as a more advanced course, only you now have the proper concepts to understand the very first line you are supposed to write. Why would universities teach Java and C++ anyway? They are either 'boring' from a computer science perspective, or too convoluted for teaching concepts.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Why would universities teach Java and C++ anyway? They are either 'boring' from a computer science perspective, or too convoluted for teaching concepts. Not a fan of Java by any means, but they should teach Java so graduating students can put that on their resume and get a job so they won't live with their parents until they are 35....
  - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
    This is presumably why they do teach Java.
- marcosdumay 8y ago
  > This is usually followed up by a request to ignore the entire line, which is one of the worst habits you can have as a developer. It is usually a request to ignore it for now, because "we will get into each part latter". I fail to understand what is so bad about it. It's just not practical to provide all the theoretical foundations upfront, and postpone practice to the second semester. Up to this day, I still think that the easiest way for me to learn a new language is to copy some hello world, and replace one line after the other once I get why they are there.
  - learc83 8y ago
    I was never very good at that--ignoring something until later when it's staring right at you. I prefer teaching programming with a language that minimizes the boilerplate required to get started.
  - Terr_ 8y ago
    I think of it a bit like how physics start with that frictionless vacuum, or skip relativistic stuff for later.
- int_19h 8y ago
  The thing I love about Python as a teaching language is that you don't need to tell people anything about objects to get them started, and even to do some more advanced stuff (e.g. turtle graphics). And then you can introduce objects, and they light up the mental image of the world that is already there - because objects were part of the ride all along, just staying in the background.
- wruza 8y ago
  Why not just explain it in less detail? Public so that java can see it. Static so it just lives here, no need to create objects. And void is that no value is returned, we will just print our results. Java calls it as program runs, thus main(). Btw, object is something you can create and call methods – functions of that object. Static may be hard to understand, but it is something you just can do. You can say(hi) and that requires nothing, but you cannot drive() without a car.
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    You can't teach that without touching all the concepts you mention. These would be almost all later parts of the course.
- userbinator 8y ago
  This doesn't really apply to C++, but I know that Sun was pushing very hard for Java in the early 90s, to the point of basically giving away hardware and course material to universities who would teach Java.
- orangeshark 8y ago
  >This is usually followed up by a request to ignore the entire line, which is one of the worst habits you can have as a developer. That really bugged me when I learned Java at University. I was also unaware how the compiler built the code and ran it, it was all hidden by the IDE. I felt a bit satisfied by my data structures course which had a pretty decent book that explained a bit of this in the first chapter. I then decided to just switch to using vim and Make to build and run my school assignments.
- curun1r 8y ago
  To me, my intro to comp sci class nailed it by teaching Scheme. The first 30 min or so were spent introducing all the syntax wed learn in the entire class. The remaining several weeks were spent on CS concepts and learning to express ourselves to the computer. I've never used Scheme/Lisp professionally and nor do I have an urge to. But it was the perfect teaching language because it puts so little between the student and learning to program a computer.
- chriswarbo 8y ago
  Anecdotally, I tried to teach myself programming in the summer before starting University. I went with Python since it's available by default on Linux, and managed to get a little CLI board game with a main loop that asked the user for their move, updated the game's state and printed the new board. One of the first CS courses at University was OOP in Java. I really struggled to grasp OOP, for most of the first year. It didn't "click" until I tried doing it in Python; after that I went down the rabbit hole into meta-object protocols, Smalltalk/Self/Newspeak, etc. Java seems to occupy the opposite of a sweet spot: it makes learning difficult for newcomers, yet it's very limited and restrictive for those with experience. Not only is it overly verbose and ceremonious compared to untyped languages like Python, but also compared to ML/Haskell, whilst being less expressive and less safe!
ThePadawan 8y ago
This thought is why for a long time, Programming 101 at my alma mater (ETH Zurich) was taught in Eiffel. Obscure, but strongly opinionated towards OOP by way of strongly enforcing the paradigm. Stop reading here. (Since Bertrand Meyer, driving force behind the language and course, retired, the course is now taught using Java.)

outworlder 8y ago

It triggers me to no end when I watch an introductory course, for people with no previous exposure to any programming language, and the teacher starts with "public static void main()" In order to understand it, you need to have a good grasp of classes, static methods, access controls. This is usually followed up by a request to ignore the entire line, which is one of the worst habits you can have as a developer. Then you have to compile this. It used to be the case that people would copy and paste command line excerpts (bad habit!), but now they will get a pre-configured "IDE" where they can punch the compile button (ok, but I have met plenty of professionals who never left this stage). Instead, they could avoid the whole thing by using something else, say, Python, or even Javascript. In both cases you can quickly drop to a repl and start trying stuff out. Once the basics are there, then you can proceed to object orientation. And perhaps even to Java as a more advanced course, only you now have the proper concepts to understand the very first line you are supposed to write. Why would universities teach Java and C++ anyway? They are either 'boring' from a computer science perspective, or too convoluted for teaching concepts.

scarface74 8y ago
Why would universities teach Java and C++ anyway? They are either 'boring' from a computer science perspective, or too convoluted for teaching concepts. Not a fan of Java by any means, but they should teach Java so graduating students can put that on their resume and get a job so they won't live with their parents until they are 35....
- _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
  This is presumably why they do teach Java.
marcosdumay 8y ago
> This is usually followed up by a request to ignore the entire line, which is one of the worst habits you can have as a developer. It is usually a request to ignore it for now, because "we will get into each part latter". I fail to understand what is so bad about it. It's just not practical to provide all the theoretical foundations upfront, and postpone practice to the second semester. Up to this day, I still think that the easiest way for me to learn a new language is to copy some hello world, and replace one line after the other once I get why they are there.
- learc83 8y ago
  I was never very good at that--ignoring something until later when it's staring right at you. I prefer teaching programming with a language that minimizes the boilerplate required to get started.
- Terr_ 8y ago
  I think of it a bit like how physics start with that frictionless vacuum, or skip relativistic stuff for later.
int_19h 8y ago
The thing I love about Python as a teaching language is that you don't need to tell people anything about objects to get them started, and even to do some more advanced stuff (e.g. turtle graphics). And then you can introduce objects, and they light up the mental image of the world that is already there - because objects were part of the ride all along, just staying in the background.
wruza 8y ago
Why not just explain it in less detail? Public so that java can see it. Static so it just lives here, no need to create objects. And void is that no value is returned, we will just print our results. Java calls it as program runs, thus main(). Btw, object is something you can create and call methods – functions of that object. Static may be hard to understand, but it is something you just can do. You can say(hi) and that requires nothing, but you cannot drive() without a car.
- gmueckl 8y ago
  You can't teach that without touching all the concepts you mention. These would be almost all later parts of the course.
userbinator 8y ago
This doesn't really apply to C++, but I know that Sun was pushing very hard for Java in the early 90s, to the point of basically giving away hardware and course material to universities who would teach Java.
orangeshark 8y ago
>This is usually followed up by a request to ignore the entire line, which is one of the worst habits you can have as a developer. That really bugged me when I learned Java at University. I was also unaware how the compiler built the code and ran it, it was all hidden by the IDE. I felt a bit satisfied by my data structures course which had a pretty decent book that explained a bit of this in the first chapter. I then decided to just switch to using vim and Make to build and run my school assignments.
curun1r 8y ago
To me, my intro to comp sci class nailed it by teaching Scheme. The first 30 min or so were spent introducing all the syntax wed learn in the entire class. The remaining several weeks were spent on CS concepts and learning to express ourselves to the computer. I've never used Scheme/Lisp professionally and nor do I have an urge to. But it was the perfect teaching language because it puts so little between the student and learning to program a computer.
chriswarbo 8y ago
Anecdotally, I tried to teach myself programming in the summer before starting University. I went with Python since it's available by default on Linux, and managed to get a little CLI board game with a main loop that asked the user for their move, updated the game's state and printed the new board. One of the first CS courses at University was OOP in Java. I really struggled to grasp OOP, for most of the first year. It didn't "click" until I tried doing it in Python; after that I went down the rabbit hole into meta-object protocols, Smalltalk/Self/Newspeak, etc. Java seems to occupy the opposite of a sweet spot: it makes learning difficult for newcomers, yet it's very limited and restrictive for those with experience. Not only is it overly verbose and ceremonious compared to untyped languages like Python, but also compared to ML/Haskell, whilst being less expressive and less safe!

ThePadawan 8y ago

This thought is why for a long time, Programming 101 at my alma mater (ETH Zurich) was taught in Eiffel. Obscure, but strongly opinionated towards OOP by way of strongly enforcing the paradigm. Stop reading here. (Since Bertrand Meyer, driving force behind the language and course, retired, the course is now taught using Java.)