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> I don’t understand why the Chrome team is picking this hill to die on Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares. Nobody outside Hack

> I don’t understand why the Chrome team is picking this hill to die on Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares. Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this. > I really expect this change to push a lot of people away from chrome Care to bet on that? Because I would happily take the opposite side of that bet. I think the feature will stay and after a few months we will see absolutely no change in Chrome’s usage statistics.

Nursie 8y ago
Sad but true. People don't care about this stuff, in general.
- baq 8y ago
  this means that the voice of those who care will be loud and clear, because those who don't care stay quiet. a top 30 post on HN makes a difference.
- Spivak 8y ago
  Why would they? Who outside our paranoid bubble is doing anything other than being signed into their accounts all the time?
noja 8y ago
> because nobody cares A lot of people do not understand, but we do, we're the techies. It's our job to understand. Don't mistake people not understanding for not caring. Once people understand, they care.
- jonbronson 8y ago
  This can't be overstated. The update did not even mention this feature change, making it even more difficult for non-techies to know something has changed, and what it means.
- amdelamar 8y ago
  Yeah, but my parents _understand_ Facebook collects/sells their data. But they don't _care_ enough to stop using Facebook.
  - JoshMnem 8y ago
    Most people incorrectly think along the lines of "they have all my data already, so there's nothing I can do." Most probably also believe that many of the things that are going on are illegal and that someone is watching out for their interests. If they really understood the consequences of the data collection on a deeper level, most people wouldn't agree to it.
    - inetknght 8y ago
      I can confirm: there are a lot of things that friends, coworkers, and family all think are illegal and yet when I tell them to call law enforcement, they then ask "but who do I call?" followed by "I can't afford to hire a lawyer" They know what's happening is wrong. They don't know how to stop it. But they do still need to browse the web.
  - reificator 8y ago
    They may understand it on a superficial level, but do they understand it on a practical one? Everyone "understands" that Facebook collects user data. It's the contextual understanding that makes techies uneasy.
    - throwawaymath 8y ago
      What you're saying is a pretty condescending way to treat other people's opinions. You're essentially questioning whether or not they really understand (complete with scare quotes) if they don't share your opinion. It's not the "contextual understanding" - or any kind of understanding - that makes some techies uneasy. It's their own opinions and personal comfortability with regard to data monetization. Many people understand their data is monetized in myriad ways and fully don't care. Asking if they actually understand is only going to patronize them.
- nicky0 8y ago
  I understand, and I don't care.
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  > Don't mistake people not understanding for not caring. Once people understand, they care. Conversely, don't mistake people not caring for not understanding. Many people both understand and don't care. Reasonable people can disagree about how their personal data should be monetized.
- zelon88 8y ago
  It's the early adopters who breed the late adopters. If we all stop using Chrome, and thus stop recommending it to our friends/co-workers they will stop using it too. I've personally turned dozens of people away from IE towards Chrome. Now I'll turn dozens of people away from Chrome towards Firefox. Also, I'm also IT and I'm now phasing out Chrome on my company workstations and phasing in Firefox. It will take time as it's low on my list of priorities, but every workstation I touch I'll take the time to scrub free from Chrome and setup FF. There's 30x users right there.
redm 8y ago
Maybe not in a few months, but things like this are funny. People who were looking for a reason to leave Chrome may use this to justify it, and while it may be a small audience, small audiences can be trendsetters, especially if they are passionate. Much like the slide from IE and FireFox to Chrome, by the time Mozilla and Microsoft reacted, it was already too late. Time will tell if this is the start of such a momentum flip or if it's just another blip.
- stefano 8y ago
  Part of Chrome rise to success was, on top of its (at the time) superior performance, the massive marketing from the biggest advertising company in the world.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  10+ years ago, techies were the trendsetters in computer technology, because computers were hard to use. Now computers are easy to use, and the massmarket does not need to rely on techies for guidance, and non -techies can be early adopters. The general public relies on mainstream popular culture / fashion influencers.
drusepth 8y ago
>Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares. Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this. Ever since I updated to 69 I've been absolutely loving it. The most noticeable improvement is it feeling incredibly faster, but as someone who's been using 4-5 profiles on Chrome for over a year the new user management stuff just feels so much more intuitive/integrated. I was super surprised to see people complaining about it on HN this morning, and I'm still not entirely sure what the problem is. FWIW, I also severely disagree with a lot of the implementations of GDPR, so maybe I'm just not the audience who cares here. To me, this update has been nothing but improvements so far.
- user812 8y ago
  I wrote elsewhere that Chrome 69 marks a big change for the browser world. Chrome 69 is simply the best. Not for me, but for the average user. The reading and work flow is incredible for casual browsing. The negative reaction on HN is understandable, but it's not relevant for most people. The goal of Google is merging the user experience of Android, Chrome, Google search and personal Google accounts into one, and it will get increasingly difficult for users to get out of this ecosystem.
  - paavoova 8y ago
    I find this reality highly disturbing, but, as you mention, the average user is impartial if not completely ignorant. I think Google is very clearly exploiting both its monopoly and this end-user ignorance to centralize and control all aspects of the web and user devices. It's not far-fetched to consider that soon there will be no OS on the PC, but rather just Chrome as an interface to everything Google and the web. And so controversy like this is momentary and seen only in a vocal minority, quickly forgotten. Just a couple months ago, Chrome was found to be scanning user files for malware - this was quickly forgotten, probably even by the very same vocal people discussing Chrome on HN today. At this point, it's almost faux outrage.
kryogen1c 8y ago
I'm typically out of touch with normal people so I'm probably proving your point, but this has pushed me off chrome and Google. Ive always loved google. Installed chrome when it was released. I'm writing this from a pixel 2 XL because I broke my pixel 1 XL. I've had a Gmail account almost since it's been possible (I have my firstnamelastname@gmail.com). I now use firefox. I don't know what mail I'll switch to, and I can't bring myself to an iPhone, but I'm leaving. Google's increasing anti-user posture is enough, personified by the removal of their slogan "don't be evil". Legal move though it surely was, it's all too fitting. Goodbye Google - you broke my heart.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  I respect your feelings, but with respect to one of the factual details you listed: the "don't be evil" slogan never got removed from Google's Code of Conduct. That document has been reworded and the slogan is now at the end, but it's been there continuously. While I agree it's more of a passing mention than in the old wording, the end is one of the most prominent placements possible for such a statement other than the beginning. The common Internet belief that they removed this came from the Code of Conduct of Google's new parent company Alphabet, which says "Do the right thing" instead, combined with the subsequent rewording. But Google's still applies to Google as well.
  - kryogen1c 8y ago
    Oh thank you! I'm thoroughly embarrassed to have regurgitated internet gossip without reading the source material. However, as you mentioned, I stand by my sentiment. Google has clearly telegraphed their desire to put making money over users privacy and security (my definition of security being safe from Google, whereas Google's is safe from everyone BUT google) To attack this issue from Google's side, the targeted ads I receive are straight garbage. The ads I get on my Google YouTube account from my signed in chrome Google account on my signed in Google phone are not in the least bit relevant to me or my interests. I don't use ad blockers of any kind. If I have to watch the ad about Dr. Gunter zolof solving Carmichael's toshent conjecture one more time, my phone might suffer an "accident" and I will take that opportunity to switch to a different provider (ANGRY SIDE RANT: I haven't watched that ad to completion or clicked on it a _single_ time. Stop showing it to me. 50 times. Consecutively)
Consultant32452 8y ago
I would take a small bet. We're the trend-setters in technology. We're the ones who got everyone on Chrome to begin with. Otherwise they'd still be on IE. If all the tech people abandon Chrome, they will start recommending FF or IE again and discourage Chrome use. The impact is slow, but it is significant.
- richjdsmith 8y ago
  Yep. Technology evangelists tend also to be early adopters. If they all jump ship, the masses will follow. Slowly, but surely.
- schizoidboy 8y ago
  See my other comment in response to the parent - I hope neither of you were being sarcastic and that a bet is worked out.
allenz 8y ago
But the tech-savvy community has influence. We set up computers for our friends and families. We write IT policies. We are web developers, tech reporters, and more. At least for me, Google's behavior means that I can no longer recommend Chrome.
- adtac 8y ago
  I can't imagine the impact is significant even if we consider two degrees of acquaintances (you tell someone to not use Chrome and they tell someone else).
  - allenz 8y ago
    The world is very small, and privacy is a mainstream concern these days. The impact of one story or one action is limited, but in the end, users do get their say. Otherwise, we would still be using Internet Explorer.
  - Kim_Bruning 8y ago
    That would be very depressing if true. Fortunately it's not. On average people are only about 6 degrees apart, so in reality a relatively small number of people can get a surprisingly large amount of coverage in a frighteningly short amount of time, should they choose to apply themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation
bogomipz 8y ago
>"Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares." You are conflating "don't understand" and "don't care." Those are not the same things at all. This conflation seems to be a stable of Big Tech now where matters of privacy are concerned. >"Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this." Awareness of issues and a dialogue concerning them generally starts with people have domain-specific knowledge. The idea that this somehow detracts from an issue's importance is absurd.
p1necone 8y ago
Once upon a time "nobody cared" that IE was trash either, now look what's happened - and that was preinstalled on the OS.
schizoidboy 8y ago
Just a small meta-point that betting is a great way for both sides of a debate to tone down rhetoric, engage in dialogue, and discuss objective terms or processes for evaluating a disagreement. It looks like another commenter is taking you up on the bet and I hope neither of you were being sarcastic, because I think betting isn't something to joke about but a wonderful tool that we don't use often enough.
signal11 8y ago
A lot more "lay users" will care when random sites they visit start picking up their Google identity and showing it in the web page, all because the user signed into the browser. This is what it looks like: https://imgur.com/a/nFvxI0U https://imgur.com/a/nFvxI0U Assuming this isn't fixed, the ick factor of being in-your-face followed across the web will be quite strong, I think.

Nursie 8y ago

Sad but true. People don't care about this stuff, in general.

baq 8y ago
this means that the voice of those who care will be loud and clear, because those who don't care stay quiet. a top 30 post on HN makes a difference.
Spivak 8y ago
Why would they? Who outside our paranoid bubble is doing anything other than being signed into their accounts all the time?

noja 8y ago

> because nobody cares A lot of people do not understand, but we do, we're the techies. It's our job to understand. Don't mistake people not understanding for not caring. Once people understand, they care.

jonbronson 8y ago
This can't be overstated. The update did not even mention this feature change, making it even more difficult for non-techies to know something has changed, and what it means.
amdelamar 8y ago
Yeah, but my parents _understand_ Facebook collects/sells their data. But they don't _care_ enough to stop using Facebook.
- JoshMnem 8y ago
  Most people incorrectly think along the lines of "they have all my data already, so there's nothing I can do." Most probably also believe that many of the things that are going on are illegal and that someone is watching out for their interests. If they really understood the consequences of the data collection on a deeper level, most people wouldn't agree to it.
  - inetknght 8y ago
    I can confirm: there are a lot of things that friends, coworkers, and family all think are illegal and yet when I tell them to call law enforcement, they then ask "but who do I call?" followed by "I can't afford to hire a lawyer" They know what's happening is wrong. They don't know how to stop it. But they do still need to browse the web.
- reificator 8y ago
  They may understand it on a superficial level, but do they understand it on a practical one? Everyone "understands" that Facebook collects user data. It's the contextual understanding that makes techies uneasy.
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    What you're saying is a pretty condescending way to treat other people's opinions. You're essentially questioning whether or not they really understand (complete with scare quotes) if they don't share your opinion. It's not the "contextual understanding" - or any kind of understanding - that makes some techies uneasy. It's their own opinions and personal comfortability with regard to data monetization. Many people understand their data is monetized in myriad ways and fully don't care. Asking if they actually understand is only going to patronize them.
nicky0 8y ago
I understand, and I don't care.
throwawaymath 8y ago
> Don't mistake people not understanding for not caring. Once people understand, they care. Conversely, don't mistake people not caring for not understanding. Many people both understand and don't care. Reasonable people can disagree about how their personal data should be monetized.
zelon88 8y ago
It's the early adopters who breed the late adopters. If we all stop using Chrome, and thus stop recommending it to our friends/co-workers they will stop using it too. I've personally turned dozens of people away from IE towards Chrome. Now I'll turn dozens of people away from Chrome towards Firefox. Also, I'm also IT and I'm now phasing out Chrome on my company workstations and phasing in Firefox. It will take time as it's low on my list of priorities, but every workstation I touch I'll take the time to scrub free from Chrome and setup FF. There's 30x users right there.

redm 8y ago

Maybe not in a few months, but things like this are funny. People who were looking for a reason to leave Chrome may use this to justify it, and while it may be a small audience, small audiences can be trendsetters, especially if they are passionate. Much like the slide from IE and FireFox to Chrome, by the time Mozilla and Microsoft reacted, it was already too late. Time will tell if this is the start of such a momentum flip or if it's just another blip.

stefano 8y ago
Part of Chrome rise to success was, on top of its (at the time) superior performance, the massive marketing from the biggest advertising company in the world.
fjsolwmv 8y ago
10+ years ago, techies were the trendsetters in computer technology, because computers were hard to use. Now computers are easy to use, and the massmarket does not need to rely on techies for guidance, and non -techies can be early adopters. The general public relies on mainstream popular culture / fashion influencers.

drusepth 8y ago

>Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares. Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this. Ever since I updated to 69 I've been absolutely loving it. The most noticeable improvement is it feeling incredibly faster, but as someone who's been using 4-5 profiles on Chrome for over a year the new user management stuff just feels so much more intuitive/integrated. I was super surprised to see people complaining about it on HN this morning, and I'm still not entirely sure what the problem is. FWIW, I also severely disagree with a lot of the implementations of GDPR, so maybe I'm just not the audience who cares here. To me, this update has been nothing but improvements so far.

user812 8y ago
I wrote elsewhere that Chrome 69 marks a big change for the browser world. Chrome 69 is simply the best. Not for me, but for the average user. The reading and work flow is incredible for casual browsing. The negative reaction on HN is understandable, but it's not relevant for most people. The goal of Google is merging the user experience of Android, Chrome, Google search and personal Google accounts into one, and it will get increasingly difficult for users to get out of this ecosystem.
- paavoova 8y ago
  I find this reality highly disturbing, but, as you mention, the average user is impartial if not completely ignorant. I think Google is very clearly exploiting both its monopoly and this end-user ignorance to centralize and control all aspects of the web and user devices. It's not far-fetched to consider that soon there will be no OS on the PC, but rather just Chrome as an interface to everything Google and the web. And so controversy like this is momentary and seen only in a vocal minority, quickly forgotten. Just a couple months ago, Chrome was found to be scanning user files for malware - this was quickly forgotten, probably even by the very same vocal people discussing Chrome on HN today. At this point, it's almost faux outrage.

kryogen1c 8y ago

I'm typically out of touch with normal people so I'm probably proving your point, but this has pushed me off chrome and Google. Ive always loved google. Installed chrome when it was released. I'm writing this from a pixel 2 XL because I broke my pixel 1 XL. I've had a Gmail account almost since it's been possible (I have my firstnamelastname@gmail.com). I now use firefox. I don't know what mail I'll switch to, and I can't bring myself to an iPhone, but I'm leaving. Google's increasing anti-user posture is enough, personified by the removal of their slogan "don't be evil". Legal move though it surely was, it's all too fitting. Goodbye Google - you broke my heart.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
I respect your feelings, but with respect to one of the factual details you listed: the "don't be evil" slogan never got removed from Google's Code of Conduct. That document has been reworded and the slogan is now at the end, but it's been there continuously. While I agree it's more of a passing mention than in the old wording, the end is one of the most prominent placements possible for such a statement other than the beginning. The common Internet belief that they removed this came from the Code of Conduct of Google's new parent company Alphabet, which says "Do the right thing" instead, combined with the subsequent rewording. But Google's still applies to Google as well.
- kryogen1c 8y ago
  Oh thank you! I'm thoroughly embarrassed to have regurgitated internet gossip without reading the source material. However, as you mentioned, I stand by my sentiment. Google has clearly telegraphed their desire to put making money over users privacy and security (my definition of security being safe from Google, whereas Google's is safe from everyone BUT google) To attack this issue from Google's side, the targeted ads I receive are straight garbage. The ads I get on my Google YouTube account from my signed in chrome Google account on my signed in Google phone are not in the least bit relevant to me or my interests. I don't use ad blockers of any kind. If I have to watch the ad about Dr. Gunter zolof solving Carmichael's toshent conjecture one more time, my phone might suffer an "accident" and I will take that opportunity to switch to a different provider (ANGRY SIDE RANT: I haven't watched that ad to completion or clicked on it a _single_ time. Stop showing it to me. 50 times. Consecutively)

Consultant32452 8y ago

I would take a small bet. We're the trend-setters in technology. We're the ones who got everyone on Chrome to begin with. Otherwise they'd still be on IE. If all the tech people abandon Chrome, they will start recommending FF or IE again and discourage Chrome use. The impact is slow, but it is significant.

richjdsmith 8y ago
Yep. Technology evangelists tend also to be early adopters. If they all jump ship, the masses will follow. Slowly, but surely.
schizoidboy 8y ago
See my other comment in response to the parent - I hope neither of you were being sarcastic and that a bet is worked out.

allenz 8y ago

But the tech-savvy community has influence. We set up computers for our friends and families. We write IT policies. We are web developers, tech reporters, and more. At least for me, Google's behavior means that I can no longer recommend Chrome.

adtac 8y ago
I can't imagine the impact is significant even if we consider two degrees of acquaintances (you tell someone to not use Chrome and they tell someone else).
- allenz 8y ago
  The world is very small, and privacy is a mainstream concern these days. The impact of one story or one action is limited, but in the end, users do get their say. Otherwise, we would still be using Internet Explorer.
- Kim_Bruning 8y ago
  That would be very depressing if true. Fortunately it's not. On average people are only about 6 degrees apart, so in reality a relatively small number of people can get a surprisingly large amount of coverage in a frighteningly short amount of time, should they choose to apply themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

bogomipz 8y ago

>"Because they’re not “dying on a hill” at all, because nobody cares." You are conflating "don't understand" and "don't care." Those are not the same things at all. This conflation seems to be a stable of Big Tech now where matters of privacy are concerned. >"Nobody outside Hacker News and Twitter infosec people only followed by other Twitter infosec people cares about this." Awareness of issues and a dialogue concerning them generally starts with people have domain-specific knowledge. The idea that this somehow detracts from an issue's importance is absurd.

p1necone 8y ago

Once upon a time "nobody cared" that IE was trash either, now look what's happened - and that was preinstalled on the OS.

schizoidboy 8y ago

Just a small meta-point that betting is a great way for both sides of a debate to tone down rhetoric, engage in dialogue, and discuss objective terms or processes for evaluating a disagreement. It looks like another commenter is taking you up on the bet and I hope neither of you were being sarcastic, because I think betting isn't something to joke about but a wonderful tool that we don't use often enough.

signal11 8y ago

A lot more "lay users" will care when random sites they visit start picking up their Google identity and showing it in the web page, all because the user signed into the browser. This is what it looks like: https://imgur.com/a/nFvxI0U https://imgur.com/a/nFvxI0U Assuming this isn't fixed, the ick factor of being in-your-face followed across the web will be quite strong, I think.