4 ms·

Cool story bro. Show me the randomized lifestyle intervention trials that actually improved mortality outcomes for heart disease, and I'll believe you.

phren0logy 8y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995494/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995494/ Something more direct, with results related to actual event/non-event cardiovascular outcomes, would be ideal. It's also crazy complicated and expensive, so it's reasonable to extrapolate. Unless you didn't really want data, and had already made up your mind.
- someguydave 8y ago
  You mean a study like this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613279/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613279/ (final results here) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/
  - phren0logy 8y ago
    That is a good one, and very relevant. But the control group's unusually good outcomes need explaining. They are better than expected for "treatment as usual," and genuinely a potential confounder for outcomes.
    - someguydave 8y ago
      Agreed, that is a question mark on this study - I think more basic research needs to be done in this area. As you can see from other comments in this tree, many folks think that the science on these matters is settled. As Mark Twain said: “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
nradov 8y ago
You missed the point of my comment and seem to be trying to pick an argument based on some preconceived notions. I made no claim as the effectiveness of lifestyle interventions. I merely pointed out that poor lifestyle choices are overwhelming our current healthcare financing system. This should be clear to anyone who as looked at the data. If the current trend continues there simply won't be enough money to pay for essential care any more regardless of who does the paying. Therefore, if we can't improve the lifestyle issues there will be serious consequences for the whole country including decreasing lifespans, reduced economic competitiveness, and even impacts to national security.
- someguydave 8y ago
  You missed my point: claims like "I merely pointed out that poor lifestyle choices are overwhelming our current healthcare financing system." are empirical in nature and need empirical studies to demonstrate the truth of them.
  - nradov 8y ago
    It's been studied ad nauseum. And please don't waste our time asking for citations; there are a zillion peer reviewed articles which clearly demonstrate that lifestyle factors have expensive health consequences and that the situation is deteriorating. They're easy enough to find if you want to do more than argue.
    - someguydave 8y ago
      Please cite a study of higher quality than this one, which found intensive lifestyle intervention to be futile: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/
      - nradov 8y ago
        I'm not sure why you persist in arguing against a point that I never made. It is well known that the majority of cases of some of the most expensive diseases such as type 2 diabetes or COPD are primarily caused by poor lifestyle choices. Whether effective lifestyle interventions can be found is an entirely separate issue.

phren0logy 8y ago

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995494/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2995494/ Something more direct, with results related to actual event/non-event cardiovascular outcomes, would be ideal. It's also crazy complicated and expensive, so it's reasonable to extrapolate. Unless you didn't really want data, and had already made up your mind.

someguydave 8y ago
You mean a study like this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613279/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2613279/ (final results here) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/
- phren0logy 8y ago
  That is a good one, and very relevant. But the control group's unusually good outcomes need explaining. They are better than expected for "treatment as usual," and genuinely a potential confounder for outcomes.
  - someguydave 8y ago
    Agreed, that is a question mark on this study - I think more basic research needs to be done in this area. As you can see from other comments in this tree, many folks think that the science on these matters is settled. As Mark Twain said: “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”

nradov 8y ago

You missed the point of my comment and seem to be trying to pick an argument based on some preconceived notions. I made no claim as the effectiveness of lifestyle interventions. I merely pointed out that poor lifestyle choices are overwhelming our current healthcare financing system. This should be clear to anyone who as looked at the data. If the current trend continues there simply won't be enough money to pay for essential care any more regardless of who does the paying. Therefore, if we can't improve the lifestyle issues there will be serious consequences for the whole country including decreasing lifespans, reduced economic competitiveness, and even impacts to national security.

someguydave 8y ago
You missed my point: claims like "I merely pointed out that poor lifestyle choices are overwhelming our current healthcare financing system." are empirical in nature and need empirical studies to demonstrate the truth of them.
- nradov 8y ago
  It's been studied ad nauseum. And please don't waste our time asking for citations; there are a zillion peer reviewed articles which clearly demonstrate that lifestyle factors have expensive health consequences and that the situation is deteriorating. They're easy enough to find if you want to do more than argue.
  - someguydave 8y ago
    Please cite a study of higher quality than this one, which found intensive lifestyle intervention to be futile: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339027/
    - nradov 8y ago
      I'm not sure why you persist in arguing against a point that I never made. It is well known that the majority of cases of some of the most expensive diseases such as type 2 diabetes or COPD are primarily caused by poor lifestyle choices. Whether effective lifestyle interventions can be found is an entirely separate issue.