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I'd love to switch away from Gmail, but its security is so compelling that, afaik, nobody else comes close. How many other companies have Tavis Ormandy's on sta

I'd love to switch away from Gmail, but its security is so compelling that, afaik, nobody else comes close. How many other companies have Tavis Ormandy's on staff to do security audits for their users, let alone free users? Is there a single other email provider that gets security right to the extent Google does?

Aeolun 8y ago
Well, you could argue that your mail is safe from everyone except one. I’m not really sure if Google is more likely to fuck me over than any external actor, but it doesn’t feel right.
brycehamrick 8y ago
Yeah I completely agree this is something that needs consideration. I do have an email address with my own domain but for security reasons any accounts I create are tied to my gmail address. I've known too many people who have had personal domain email addresses intercepted, particularly through compromised domain/DNS settings. One simple MX record adjustment could mean every single bank account, social media profile, etc. all can be taken over.
- h1d 8y ago
  > One simple MX record adjustment Not sure if it's simple but how do you intend to protect against DNS record hacks?
  - Brian_K_White 8y ago
    google does the protecting against dns record attacks on gmail.com "How?" is not the unanswerable question for them and for that domain, that it is for you & me and you&me.com
- eikenberry 8y ago
  How does using gmail address compromised DNS? I mean if they compromise your DNS it doesn't matter who is hosting your email, they just point the MX at a different service.
  - eikenberry 8y ago
    Sorry, you're probably talking about using the @gmail.com domain where you wouldn't have to worry about DNS. I was thinking about custom domains in G-Suite.
  - brycehamrick 8y ago
    Yeah I'm referring to an @gmail.com address. I'm pretty confident in Google's ability to secure that.
- miles 8y ago
  > I do have an email address with my own domain but for security reasons any accounts I create are tied to my gmail address. I've known too many people who have had personal domain email addresses intercepted, particularly through compromised domain/DNS settings. If your Gmail account is lost or compromised, good luck getting any help from Google; while G Suite support is decent, free Gmail account users are basically on their own. Ask HN: Lost $400k USD in a deleted email, how contact a Gmail engineer? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14452969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14452969 Ask HN: What to do about a wrongly shut down GMail account? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2033474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2033474 Another account lost in the Google void – how many are there? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17745761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17745761 Professor who refused to use other genders pronouns, was banned by Google https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14905384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14905384
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - kbuck 8y ago
    To be fair here, two of these are obvious user error. In the Etherium case, he deleted the email and wanted to get it back 2 full years later. The only way he would have recovered from this would have been to take meticulous backups (and test them regularly). I would expect any 3rd party provider to honor my wish to delete data, especially 2 years down the line (and, in fact, they are probably legally required to do so). In the "lost in the Google void" situation, the user set up 2fa but lost all access to their 2nd factors. I don't see any reasonable recourse to this, as any "solution" Google implements would undermine the entire purpose of 2fa. The remaining two are obvious issues with Google's service. The "gender pronoun" one is a bit odd because gender pronouns don't seem to have anything to do with the account closure (there's speculation that he was mass-reported to exploit their abuse response systems).
  - brycehamrick 8y ago
    Is it more likely that your DNS host or domain registrar could be compromised or that Google might shut you out of your account? There's risks with either decision, personally I put more trust that my Google account will be there than in my registrar's security.
- jakecopp 8y ago
  Are you able to link to some info on how email could be compromised this way? I'd be interested to learn how to secure my domain.
  - chillydawg 8y ago
    Whoever hosts your DNS is the weak point. Account and login security with whoever they are is critical.
    - brycehamrick 8y ago
      DNS as well as registrar, which may be two different entities. You can either change the MX with the DNS host, or you can change the nameserver with the registrar.
maxk42 8y ago
ProtonMail's security is formidable, but the messages are encrypted in such a way as to not be searchable. If security is your concern and long-term search isn't, consider giving them a go. Great mobile app, too.
- whitepoplar 8y ago
  Their "end-to-end" encryption claims as well as their schtick about being hosted in Switzerland make it abundantly clear that I will never trust their security. I would go so far as to use almost any other major email provider over ProtonMail.
  - aoeusnth1 8y ago
    Sorry, can you go into more detail? I don't understand your concern.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      No OP, perhaps one could think they make such a big thing about security to try to attract lucrative accounts, which they then have backdoors into. As you can't verify their claims, all you can do is trust. If you want end-to-end encryption you should be gpg encrypting every mail, not relying on the unverifiable word on a provider. Any provider worth its salt will know that, thus wouldn't actually advertise an insecure (as verify can't be done) system as a secure one.
      - aoeusnth1 8y ago
        I think you might be misinformed - their security is based on client-side encryption which is open source. See: - https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source-crytography/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source-crytograp... - https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-secure-email-open-source/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-secure-email-open-sou... You don't have to trust any of their server code - you only have to trust that the JavaScript blob they send you is actually the same as the open source version. This is the same threat model as trusting Signal from the App store instead of side-loading it yourself.
bamboozled 8y ago
What's the point of having great security if you don't own the data?
nbhuik 8y ago
Neither Tavis Ormandy nor Google have a good track record when it comes to pragmatic security. Google's business model is incompatible with proper security. Chances are that you know Tavis from him being arrogant on project zero so everyone who runs old versions of something, like all the millions of insecure android handsets, can get owned by script kiddies. People have been listing alternatives, but the whole point of giving something like gmail away for free is so there won't be any real alternatives. It isn't like it is going to make a difference either way, since Google's position in the market mean most people won't switch.

Aeolun 8y ago

Well, you could argue that your mail is safe from everyone except one. I’m not really sure if Google is more likely to fuck me over than any external actor, but it doesn’t feel right.

brycehamrick 8y ago

Yeah I completely agree this is something that needs consideration. I do have an email address with my own domain but for security reasons any accounts I create are tied to my gmail address. I've known too many people who have had personal domain email addresses intercepted, particularly through compromised domain/DNS settings. One simple MX record adjustment could mean every single bank account, social media profile, etc. all can be taken over.

h1d 8y ago
> One simple MX record adjustment Not sure if it's simple but how do you intend to protect against DNS record hacks?
- Brian_K_White 8y ago
  google does the protecting against dns record attacks on gmail.com "How?" is not the unanswerable question for them and for that domain, that it is for you & me and you&me.com
eikenberry 8y ago
How does using gmail address compromised DNS? I mean if they compromise your DNS it doesn't matter who is hosting your email, they just point the MX at a different service.
- eikenberry 8y ago
  Sorry, you're probably talking about using the @gmail.com domain where you wouldn't have to worry about DNS. I was thinking about custom domains in G-Suite.
- brycehamrick 8y ago
  Yeah I'm referring to an @gmail.com address. I'm pretty confident in Google's ability to secure that.
miles 8y ago
> I do have an email address with my own domain but for security reasons any accounts I create are tied to my gmail address. I've known too many people who have had personal domain email addresses intercepted, particularly through compromised domain/DNS settings. If your Gmail account is lost or compromised, good luck getting any help from Google; while G Suite support is decent, free Gmail account users are basically on their own. Ask HN: Lost $400k USD in a deleted email, how contact a Gmail engineer? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14452969 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14452969 Ask HN: What to do about a wrongly shut down GMail account? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2033474 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2033474 Another account lost in the Google void – how many are there? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17745761 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17745761 Professor who refused to use other genders pronouns, was banned by Google https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14905384 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14905384
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kbuck 8y ago
  To be fair here, two of these are obvious user error. In the Etherium case, he deleted the email and wanted to get it back 2 full years later. The only way he would have recovered from this would have been to take meticulous backups (and test them regularly). I would expect any 3rd party provider to honor my wish to delete data, especially 2 years down the line (and, in fact, they are probably legally required to do so). In the "lost in the Google void" situation, the user set up 2fa but lost all access to their 2nd factors. I don't see any reasonable recourse to this, as any "solution" Google implements would undermine the entire purpose of 2fa. The remaining two are obvious issues with Google's service. The "gender pronoun" one is a bit odd because gender pronouns don't seem to have anything to do with the account closure (there's speculation that he was mass-reported to exploit their abuse response systems).
- brycehamrick 8y ago
  Is it more likely that your DNS host or domain registrar could be compromised or that Google might shut you out of your account? There's risks with either decision, personally I put more trust that my Google account will be there than in my registrar's security.
jakecopp 8y ago
Are you able to link to some info on how email could be compromised this way? I'd be interested to learn how to secure my domain.
- chillydawg 8y ago
  Whoever hosts your DNS is the weak point. Account and login security with whoever they are is critical.
  - brycehamrick 8y ago
    DNS as well as registrar, which may be two different entities. You can either change the MX with the DNS host, or you can change the nameserver with the registrar.

maxk42 8y ago

ProtonMail's security is formidable, but the messages are encrypted in such a way as to not be searchable. If security is your concern and long-term search isn't, consider giving them a go. Great mobile app, too.

whitepoplar 8y ago
Their "end-to-end" encryption claims as well as their schtick about being hosted in Switzerland make it abundantly clear that I will never trust their security. I would go so far as to use almost any other major email provider over ProtonMail.
- aoeusnth1 8y ago
  Sorry, can you go into more detail? I don't understand your concern.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    No OP, perhaps one could think they make such a big thing about security to try to attract lucrative accounts, which they then have backdoors into. As you can't verify their claims, all you can do is trust. If you want end-to-end encryption you should be gpg encrypting every mail, not relying on the unverifiable word on a provider. Any provider worth its salt will know that, thus wouldn't actually advertise an insecure (as verify can't be done) system as a secure one.
    - aoeusnth1 8y ago
      I think you might be misinformed - their security is based on client-side encryption which is open source. See: - https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source-crytography/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source-crytograp... - https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-secure-email-open-source/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-secure-email-open-sou... You don't have to trust any of their server code - you only have to trust that the JavaScript blob they send you is actually the same as the open source version. This is the same threat model as trusting Signal from the App store instead of side-loading it yourself.

bamboozled 8y ago

What's the point of having great security if you don't own the data?

nbhuik 8y ago

Neither Tavis Ormandy nor Google have a good track record when it comes to pragmatic security. Google's business model is incompatible with proper security. Chances are that you know Tavis from him being arrogant on project zero so everyone who runs old versions of something, like all the millions of insecure android handsets, can get owned by script kiddies. People have been listing alternatives, but the whole point of giving something like gmail away for free is so there won't be any real alternatives. It isn't like it is going to make a difference either way, since Google's position in the market mean most people won't switch.