5 ms·

When you're looking for escape hatches, you know the software is working against you. At that point, it's better to move to an alternative browser, it's not wor

When you're looking for escape hatches, you know the software is working against you. At that point, it's better to move to an alternative browser, it's not worth it to fight it with hacks. If too many people use the escape hatch, they'll remove it.

mtgx 8y ago
That was also my argument against all the "hacks" people posted online against Windows 10 tracking. Most of them were short-lived because Microsoft had an incentive to stop them from being used in the next update of Windows.
mehrdadn 8y ago
I know. I was just trying to help another poor soul like myself in the interim of figuring out how to switch. For me at least, it's very nontrivial work.
SiVal 8y ago
It seems as though the needed escape hatch is a browser that simply CAN'T send info about you back to home base. Firefox might qualify, but I don't know for sure, and I don't want that to be our only option. There's a lot of great engineering that goes into Chrome. So I'm wondering: Is enough code open sourced to make it possible for an organization such as Apache, GNU, or whatever, to create a sanitized fork of each new version of Chrome? This would be a version of Chrome with no privileged party other than its user. Every other party would be limited to the same set of features (cookies, local storage, etc.) that apply to all 2nd parties.
- rst 8y ago
  You might want to look into the Brave browser (https://brave.com https://brave.com), which is a commercial browser based on the Chromium code, funded by a micropayments idea, which tries to generally be more privacy-sensitive than the Google version. As for a fully open-source version: here's a fairly recent summary (2017) of what's in Chrome and not in Chromium (the open-sourced subset): https://www.howtogeek.com/202825/what%E2%80%99s-the-difference-between-chromium-and-chrome/ https://www.howtogeek.com/202825/what%E2%80%99s-the-differen... There are other omissions that could get in the way of general usability; chromium also omits some proprietary licensed codecs, including the mp3 support. However, Google synch support, etc, is left in -- and if you desire to keep that out, maintaining the patch set that does it without cooperation from upstream could be a hassle. Whenever they refactor of update the integration between synch and the rest of the browser, you need to make corresponding changes in the patch set that cuts all that out -- and at a fairly rapid pace, too, lest you find yourself unable to ship an urgent security update. So, it's doable -- but at a price in usability, and doing it right requires some kind of continual effort. Which is what Brave is, in effect, trying to arrange with their payments-based funding scheme. And even a very capable person trying to do the project solo, on a volunteer basis, would be putting themselves at risk of burnout.
  - StudentStuff 8y ago
    Does one really want to associate themselves with Brendan Eich though? Brave is what he has been building after being ejected from Mozilla. While Brendan has built some interesting and useful things including Javascript, he is apparently poisonous enough to cause three of Mozilla's board members to resign, including a founding executive of Yahoo, the former CEO of AVG, and the former CEO of Mozilla Corp (from 2008 to 2010). His wiki page is a good reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich
    - contem 8y ago
      The disagreements were about strategy and mobile experience, so not enough to call someone poisonous. Place Yahoo, AVG, and Moz Corp against Brendan's co-founder status and JavaScript. The other toxic drama was about a 1000$ political donation. Very sad to see an unpopular view used to paint someone as a monster. If democratic political views are enough to kill someones career, it is more a sign of the toxicity of today's social media and activism than a character judgment. > Does one really want to associate themselves with Brendan Eich though? No, not really. Not a good political idea to align yourself with the black sheep. With all the tars and feathers he just looks weird. Though it also works in his favor: Brave is popular amongst the alt-right and technical-minded early adopters. They see it more as character assassination and SJW corporate culture taking desperate vengeance for Trump's win.
      - thrower123 8y ago
        The fact that Eich was pilloried after the fact for what was at the time a mainstream political opinion is absurd. Brave is fantastic on android though.
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        > at the time It was ten years ago. When people fussed about it it was six years old. How many years back do political actions count as relevant?
- pdkl95 8y ago
  > a browser that simply CAN'T send info about you back to home base Unfortunatly that requires a large sacrifice: no Turing complete languages. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099
- ori_b 8y ago
  If it's connected to the internet, then it can send info to home base. The only way around this is code that's simple enough to audit and understand. That ship sailed long ago for browsers -- if you care about auditability, you can't trust the web.
  - nickpsecurity 8y ago
    Exactly. I'll go further in saying a system or software should be considered insecure if it connects to Internet and wasn't designed/implemented with strong security. That's most stuff.
    - ori_b 8y ago
      That's a red herring. We're not discussing a security bug -- the system is working as designed. The problem is that the goal is not desirable, and the standards and code are complex to the point that an independent implementation is intractable.
- tomxor 8y ago
  > Is enough code open sourced to make it possible for an organization such as Apache, GNU, or whatever, to create a sanitized fork of each new version of Chrome? Yes: https://wiki.qt.io/QtWebEngine https://wiki.qt.io/QtWebEngine > Qt WebEngine uses code from the Chromium project. However, it is not containing all of Chrome/Chromium: Binary files are stripped out. Auxiliary services that talk to Google platforms are stripped out. The codebase is modularized to allow use of system libraries like OpenSSL. We do update to the latest Chromium version in use before a Qt release. Here's a browser: https://www.qutebrowser.org/ https://www.qutebrowser.org/ I haven't tried it yet. [edit] oh, it's already in the apt repos on debian testing :)
- ziftface 8y ago
  This doesn't answer your question, but I thought I'd mention: A lot of great engineering goes into Firefox too. I really think you ought to try the version of Firefox that enables WebRender by default, when it comes out. I've been using it in Nightly on Mac, and it's seriously worth trying.
asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
> When you're looking for escape hatches, you know the software is working against you. I would say that when you're looking for escape hatches, you know the defaults don't match your personal preferences. I understand why some people don't like combined login. However, I personally prefer it, and I guess that the decision to add it was made on the basis of believing that most people would feel like I do, or at worst feel neutral.
- danudey 8y ago
  Based on all the discussions I've had or seen with Google developers, they added it based on the basis of believing that most people should feel that you do, or at worst won't notice. It's unlikely that they considered privacy concerns, above and beyond "we can be trusted so it's fine".
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
    I don't know who you are or whether you have had conversations with the people who are responsible for the feature. All I can say is that that does not match my perception of the typical way of doing things at Google, as someone who has been working there for a while. That said, I do not sit close to where this feature was built, so maybe they do things differently over there.
newnewpdro 8y ago
That is how I feel about my use of youtube-dl. But youtube is so damn entrenched nowadays...

mtgx 8y ago

That was also my argument against all the "hacks" people posted online against Windows 10 tracking. Most of them were short-lived because Microsoft had an incentive to stop them from being used in the next update of Windows.

mehrdadn 8y ago

I know. I was just trying to help another poor soul like myself in the interim of figuring out how to switch. For me at least, it's very nontrivial work.

SiVal 8y ago

It seems as though the needed escape hatch is a browser that simply CAN'T send info about you back to home base. Firefox might qualify, but I don't know for sure, and I don't want that to be our only option. There's a lot of great engineering that goes into Chrome. So I'm wondering: Is enough code open sourced to make it possible for an organization such as Apache, GNU, or whatever, to create a sanitized fork of each new version of Chrome? This would be a version of Chrome with no privileged party other than its user. Every other party would be limited to the same set of features (cookies, local storage, etc.) that apply to all 2nd parties.

rst 8y ago
You might want to look into the Brave browser (https://brave.com https://brave.com), which is a commercial browser based on the Chromium code, funded by a micropayments idea, which tries to generally be more privacy-sensitive than the Google version. As for a fully open-source version: here's a fairly recent summary (2017) of what's in Chrome and not in Chromium (the open-sourced subset): https://www.howtogeek.com/202825/what%E2%80%99s-the-difference-between-chromium-and-chrome/ https://www.howtogeek.com/202825/what%E2%80%99s-the-differen... There are other omissions that could get in the way of general usability; chromium also omits some proprietary licensed codecs, including the mp3 support. However, Google synch support, etc, is left in -- and if you desire to keep that out, maintaining the patch set that does it without cooperation from upstream could be a hassle. Whenever they refactor of update the integration between synch and the rest of the browser, you need to make corresponding changes in the patch set that cuts all that out -- and at a fairly rapid pace, too, lest you find yourself unable to ship an urgent security update. So, it's doable -- but at a price in usability, and doing it right requires some kind of continual effort. Which is what Brave is, in effect, trying to arrange with their payments-based funding scheme. And even a very capable person trying to do the project solo, on a volunteer basis, would be putting themselves at risk of burnout.
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  Does one really want to associate themselves with Brendan Eich though? Brave is what he has been building after being ejected from Mozilla. While Brendan has built some interesting and useful things including Javascript, he is apparently poisonous enough to cause three of Mozilla's board members to resign, including a founding executive of Yahoo, the former CEO of AVG, and the former CEO of Mozilla Corp (from 2008 to 2010). His wiki page is a good reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich
  - contem 8y ago
    The disagreements were about strategy and mobile experience, so not enough to call someone poisonous. Place Yahoo, AVG, and Moz Corp against Brendan's co-founder status and JavaScript. The other toxic drama was about a 1000$ political donation. Very sad to see an unpopular view used to paint someone as a monster. If democratic political views are enough to kill someones career, it is more a sign of the toxicity of today's social media and activism than a character judgment. > Does one really want to associate themselves with Brendan Eich though? No, not really. Not a good political idea to align yourself with the black sheep. With all the tars and feathers he just looks weird. Though it also works in his favor: Brave is popular amongst the alt-right and technical-minded early adopters. They see it more as character assassination and SJW corporate culture taking desperate vengeance for Trump's win.
    - thrower123 8y ago
      The fact that Eich was pilloried after the fact for what was at the time a mainstream political opinion is absurd. Brave is fantastic on android though.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        > at the time It was ten years ago. When people fussed about it it was six years old. How many years back do political actions count as relevant?
pdkl95 8y ago
> a browser that simply CAN'T send info about you back to home base Unfortunatly that requires a large sacrifice: no Turing complete languages. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099
ori_b 8y ago
If it's connected to the internet, then it can send info to home base. The only way around this is code that's simple enough to audit and understand. That ship sailed long ago for browsers -- if you care about auditability, you can't trust the web.
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  Exactly. I'll go further in saying a system or software should be considered insecure if it connects to Internet and wasn't designed/implemented with strong security. That's most stuff.
  - ori_b 8y ago
    That's a red herring. We're not discussing a security bug -- the system is working as designed. The problem is that the goal is not desirable, and the standards and code are complex to the point that an independent implementation is intractable.
tomxor 8y ago
> Is enough code open sourced to make it possible for an organization such as Apache, GNU, or whatever, to create a sanitized fork of each new version of Chrome? Yes: https://wiki.qt.io/QtWebEngine https://wiki.qt.io/QtWebEngine > Qt WebEngine uses code from the Chromium project. However, it is not containing all of Chrome/Chromium: Binary files are stripped out. Auxiliary services that talk to Google platforms are stripped out. The codebase is modularized to allow use of system libraries like OpenSSL. We do update to the latest Chromium version in use before a Qt release. Here's a browser: https://www.qutebrowser.org/ https://www.qutebrowser.org/ I haven't tried it yet. [edit] oh, it's already in the apt repos on debian testing :)
ziftface 8y ago
This doesn't answer your question, but I thought I'd mention: A lot of great engineering goes into Firefox too. I really think you ought to try the version of Firefox that enables WebRender by default, when it comes out. I've been using it in Nightly on Mac, and it's seriously worth trying.

asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago

> When you're looking for escape hatches, you know the software is working against you. I would say that when you're looking for escape hatches, you know the defaults don't match your personal preferences. I understand why some people don't like combined login. However, I personally prefer it, and I guess that the decision to add it was made on the basis of believing that most people would feel like I do, or at worst feel neutral.

danudey 8y ago
Based on all the discussions I've had or seen with Google developers, they added it based on the basis of believing that most people should feel that you do, or at worst won't notice. It's unlikely that they considered privacy concerns, above and beyond "we can be trusted so it's fine".
- asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
  I don't know who you are or whether you have had conversations with the people who are responsible for the feature. All I can say is that that does not match my perception of the typical way of doing things at Google, as someone who has been working there for a while. That said, I do not sit close to where this feature was built, so maybe they do things differently over there.

newnewpdro 8y ago

That is how I feel about my use of youtube-dl. But youtube is so damn entrenched nowadays...