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I call bullshit. Sure, $thing cost $5k-$10k to start. That says nothing about how you live, how you pay for rent/food/health/internet, or how to pay for depend

I call bullshit. Sure, $thing cost $5k-$10k to start. That says nothing about how you live, how you pay for rent/food/health/internet, or how to pay for dependants. Even if you live in Shithole, USA, these costs are still up there. And likely in that location, internet service is extremely lackluster or just plain non-existent. Most startups get away with low spending is because of rich family. When you hear a $elite_school dropout spinning around and making $empire, its not because they did it by themselves... Their family capital to take care of those other costs is what made that happen. But the Horatio Alger story keeps people believing and wanting - they never look at the facts. No, you won't find the "gold wrapper", statistically speaking. But keep pushing the idea that prosperity can be for everyone, and its just around the corner. For most of us, its not and never will be. Edit: Ah. -1's but no actual discussion/refutation. Looks like I hit on a sore point. I'd love some hard data here.

maxxxxx 8y ago
"Most startups get away with low spending is because of rich family" I think you are too negative but there is definitely something true about a lot of founders coming from well off families. A long time ago I did some business ventures with people from wealthy families and I quickly noticed what advantage it is to have family that can give you a place to live, a car and some other necessities. These guys lived a frugal life but they didn't have to be afraid of going homeless as I was since I had nobody to give me money.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  > I think you are too negative but there is definitely something true about a lot of founders coming from well off families. Its not negativity; its anger. We have this idea.. That you can only with $5k make your own multi-million dollar empire. But you're just too lazy to do it. And that's far from the truth. Obviously, rich family kid who dropped out of $elite_school isn't going to be homeless. So, they get an "angel investor" (read: family). And those other services you need, like legal, sales, and dozens of other things are smoothed over by quiet words said at social functions, 'My son needs some internet business help to present to VCs'... And they have the connections to get it done. Summing it up, it is access to money, a strong social net to fall back on, time, access to resources, and access to connections. The VCs and rest can pretend that anybody can, but I know nobody who could do this for a year, possibly fail, and recover. We all would be sunk and feeling these ramifications for years.
  - sidlls 8y ago
    People like to discount all these things as being outliers, but they're the norm. Even many "rags to riches" stories are frequently more about luck and building a network of support from which the business can be launched than they are about scrappy business sense. Take WhatsApp's founder: a true self-made, rags-to-riches story. Underlying his self-made success is that he'd built a solid network and financial padding working in high-paying tech jobs at places like Yahoo. He worked hard to reach a point that most founders are simply born into and then launched a successful business.
  - nightski 8y ago
    Meh it just takes more time. It does take diligent budgeting, financial planning, and saving. But especially for a software engineer anyone can get there if it is a priority.
pageald 8y ago
There is lots of truth to this, but it's not that hard to save up for 6 to 24 months of expenses on an engineer's salary, assuming you are living within your means. Dependents complicate the situation, but don't make it impossible.
- simplecomplex 8y ago
  Saving 6 to 24 months of expenses is not hard (just time consuming), but risking a life's savings for one shot at business success is not a risk most people have the luxury of taking. I can't risk my savings on a startup, because running out of savings means homelessness and hunger. Even without dependents, many people don't have parents willing or in a position to be the guarantor of such an investment.
  - crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    The other part is, if/when you fail.... You now have a gap of unemployment. How does your next employer see that? I know a common tactic in IT is that you're a "consultant" when unemployed. Hiring managers see through that readily. So what then? You have a failed business, unemployed, and take a pay cut on your next job... all for the hopes that you might, just might strike it rich? Again, this situation doesn't apply for those with well monied family and significant connections.
    - nightski 8y ago
      It's not a gap, you were starting a business. That is really hard and provides a lot of valuable experience along the way. Maybe just be honest about what you were doing?
    - grandmczeb 8y ago
      Few hiring managers in SV see it as a bad thing that you took time off to start a company, assuming it was a serious effort.
    - justtopost 8y ago
      Part of a business plan, is an exit strategy. If yours leaves you homeless, you messed up very badly. Hyperbole does not help here.
UncleEntity 8y ago
> But keep pushing the idea that prosperity can be for everyone, and its just around the corner. For most of us, its not and never will be. But what do you propose as an alternative? I personally have no issue with parents wanting to help their children to have a better life than they did and giving them a helping hand because without this you'd have a caste system. My blue collar parents struggled to put my sister through UCLA and now she and her husband (who grew up very poor but also went to UCLA) can afford to send their daughter to whatever $elite_school she wants in a few years without any question on the costs. So if my niece somehow manages to make $empire it truly isn't solely her doing it herself but a generational effort and not X privilege as you imply.
adventured 8y ago
> I call bullshit. Sure, $thing cost $5k-$10k to start. That says nothing about how you live, how you pay for rent/food/health/internet, or how to pay for dependants. Even if you live in Shithole, USA, these costs are still up there. And likely in that location, internet service is extremely lackluster or just plain non-existent. I'm the refutation of your claim. My basic bills are $1,600 to $1,700 per month (depends on winter vs summer), which includes a modest mortgage. I can live nearly anywhere within 80-100 miles of where I'm at, in any direction, for the same rate. Living in a nice (non-urban) location, with a near zero murder rate, low crime, tons of nature right out my door, with a low cost of living, on the east coast. Normal access to slightly expensive, high quality broadband cable, costs me $70 per month. Doing mediocre contract work 20 hours per week would pay my bills. Working on a start-up right now. My runway is, for practical purposes, perpetual, thanks to my low cost of living. I'll never need venture capital again the rest of my life, and I'll never need to stop working on whatever start-up concepts draw my attention. There are some things this combination makes it possible for me to try, that others - eg in SF or NYC - can't or won't attempt because it could be financially ruinous due to the very high cost of living.

maxxxxx 8y ago

"Most startups get away with low spending is because of rich family" I think you are too negative but there is definitely something true about a lot of founders coming from well off families. A long time ago I did some business ventures with people from wealthy families and I quickly noticed what advantage it is to have family that can give you a place to live, a car and some other necessities. These guys lived a frugal life but they didn't have to be afraid of going homeless as I was since I had nobody to give me money.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago
> I think you are too negative but there is definitely something true about a lot of founders coming from well off families. Its not negativity; its anger. We have this idea.. That you can only with $5k make your own multi-million dollar empire. But you're just too lazy to do it. And that's far from the truth. Obviously, rich family kid who dropped out of $elite_school isn't going to be homeless. So, they get an "angel investor" (read: family). And those other services you need, like legal, sales, and dozens of other things are smoothed over by quiet words said at social functions, 'My son needs some internet business help to present to VCs'... And they have the connections to get it done. Summing it up, it is access to money, a strong social net to fall back on, time, access to resources, and access to connections. The VCs and rest can pretend that anybody can, but I know nobody who could do this for a year, possibly fail, and recover. We all would be sunk and feeling these ramifications for years.
- sidlls 8y ago
  People like to discount all these things as being outliers, but they're the norm. Even many "rags to riches" stories are frequently more about luck and building a network of support from which the business can be launched than they are about scrappy business sense. Take WhatsApp's founder: a true self-made, rags-to-riches story. Underlying his self-made success is that he'd built a solid network and financial padding working in high-paying tech jobs at places like Yahoo. He worked hard to reach a point that most founders are simply born into and then launched a successful business.
- nightski 8y ago
  Meh it just takes more time. It does take diligent budgeting, financial planning, and saving. But especially for a software engineer anyone can get there if it is a priority.

pageald 8y ago

There is lots of truth to this, but it's not that hard to save up for 6 to 24 months of expenses on an engineer's salary, assuming you are living within your means. Dependents complicate the situation, but don't make it impossible.

simplecomplex 8y ago
Saving 6 to 24 months of expenses is not hard (just time consuming), but risking a life's savings for one shot at business success is not a risk most people have the luxury of taking. I can't risk my savings on a startup, because running out of savings means homelessness and hunger. Even without dependents, many people don't have parents willing or in a position to be the guarantor of such an investment.
- crankylinuxuser 8y ago
  The other part is, if/when you fail.... You now have a gap of unemployment. How does your next employer see that? I know a common tactic in IT is that you're a "consultant" when unemployed. Hiring managers see through that readily. So what then? You have a failed business, unemployed, and take a pay cut on your next job... all for the hopes that you might, just might strike it rich? Again, this situation doesn't apply for those with well monied family and significant connections.
  - nightski 8y ago
    It's not a gap, you were starting a business. That is really hard and provides a lot of valuable experience along the way. Maybe just be honest about what you were doing?
  - grandmczeb 8y ago
    Few hiring managers in SV see it as a bad thing that you took time off to start a company, assuming it was a serious effort.
  - justtopost 8y ago
    Part of a business plan, is an exit strategy. If yours leaves you homeless, you messed up very badly. Hyperbole does not help here.

UncleEntity 8y ago

> But keep pushing the idea that prosperity can be for everyone, and its just around the corner. For most of us, its not and never will be. But what do you propose as an alternative? I personally have no issue with parents wanting to help their children to have a better life than they did and giving them a helping hand because without this you'd have a caste system. My blue collar parents struggled to put my sister through UCLA and now she and her husband (who grew up very poor but also went to UCLA) can afford to send their daughter to whatever $elite_school she wants in a few years without any question on the costs. So if my niece somehow manages to make $empire it truly isn't solely her doing it herself but a generational effort and not X privilege as you imply.

adventured 8y ago

> I call bullshit. Sure, $thing cost $5k-$10k to start. That says nothing about how you live, how you pay for rent/food/health/internet, or how to pay for dependants. Even if you live in Shithole, USA, these costs are still up there. And likely in that location, internet service is extremely lackluster or just plain non-existent. I'm the refutation of your claim. My basic bills are $1,600 to $1,700 per month (depends on winter vs summer), which includes a modest mortgage. I can live nearly anywhere within 80-100 miles of where I'm at, in any direction, for the same rate. Living in a nice (non-urban) location, with a near zero murder rate, low crime, tons of nature right out my door, with a low cost of living, on the east coast. Normal access to slightly expensive, high quality broadband cable, costs me $70 per month. Doing mediocre contract work 20 hours per week would pay my bills. Working on a start-up right now. My runway is, for practical purposes, perpetual, thanks to my low cost of living. I'll never need venture capital again the rest of my life, and I'll never need to stop working on whatever start-up concepts draw my attention. There are some things this combination makes it possible for me to try, that others - eg in SF or NYC - can't or won't attempt because it could be financially ruinous due to the very high cost of living.