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You use the word intuitive a couple of times, and suggest there's a natural way to exit interactive cli programs (and it's not ctrl-d). Yet for me, ctrl-d is m

by Jedd 8y ago

You use the word intuitive a couple of times, and suggest there's a natural way to exit interactive cli programs (and it's not ctrl-d). Yet for me, ctrl-d is my usual first way of trying to exit any shell or cli utility. Whether it's natural or not, I couldn't say. Arguably the nipple is the first and only intuitive interface, everything after that is learned. After many years on my/maria I find the backslash shortcuts very counterintuitive to 'show databases | tables' etc. While I think it's great to have both options present, I don't think the demographic of people who work out they want an rdbms, evaluate and select postgresql, work out how to install server and client components, su to the postgres user, and are then likely to abandon in frustration as they can't determine how to exit the cli, is negligible.

craigkerstiens 8y ago
The background of what you learned on is key to whats intuitive or natural. If you came up on an unix based system then yes you'd expect this. If you learned databases via MySQL then you'd expect show database to work. Today though many more are coming to development without an academic or linux background. If you install Postgres via Postgres.app there is a chance you're not at all familiar with a commandline. What is intuitive... yes it's relative to your background. I very much hope that the number quit or exit is intuitive for, those that don't come from a linux or academic background, grows of time. This does become a more valuable tool the more beginners there are, and personally from working with a lot of beginners already suspect it's more valuable than many realize.
- tormeh 8y ago
  Most CLIs can be exited with "quit" or "exit". Many trap Ctrl-C, so those two are the first things I try. Didn't know about Ctrl-D before now, and I've worked as a sysadm.
- Jedd 8y ago
  > The background of what you learned on is key to whats intuitive or natural. That's pretty much the summary of my post. > If you install Postgres via Postgres.app ... I had to go lookup what postgres.app actually is -- evidently it's an easy way for Mac users to install postgres. I don't have a Mac -- which is also true for most people -- so I can't speak to the average mac user's experience or expectations. As I have (had to repeatedly) say a few times now, I think it's great that multiple options to end the program are available. I'd imagine for Mac users the 'most intuitive' thing would be to find some magic symbol on their keyboard and combine it with the letter Q.
  - solarengineer 8y ago
    Mac users either don't stop the service at all, or they use the GUI to do so (if they installed via the postgres.app tool)
freeopinion 8y ago
CTRL+D works. You like it. Great use that. You don't think anybody needs an alternative? Or you don't think having an alternative will help at all? Fine. Think what you want. One thing's for (mostly) certain: it doesn't hurt. So there's really nothing to complain about.
- Jedd 8y ago
  > CTRL+D works. You like it. Great use that. You don't think anybody needs an alternative? Or you don't think having an alternative will help at all? Fine. Think what you want. One thing's for (mostly) certain: it doesn't hurt. So there's really nothing to complain about. Not complaining about its presence, as per my comment : "While I think it's great to have both options present,..." Just observing that claims of 'more intuitive' interfaces are very subjective, and that it was unlikely to be a deal breaker for a new user.
  - sverhagen 8y ago
    You don't think it's intuitive for a command line application that is entirely driven by commands, there to be a command to exit it? Instead of a key combination? I'm used to Ctrl+D now, but it sure took me a while to figure it out. Are we not confusing intuitive with standardized?
    - Jedd 8y ago
      I can't say if anyone else is confusing intuitive with standardised. I can repeat (again) that I think it's great both options are there. Given pretty much all the other 'standard' postgres commands are \[a-z] and sometimes \[a-z][a-z] it sounds like more a complaint about \q
cuboidGoat 8y ago
"You use the word intuitive a couple of times, and suggest there's a natural way to exit interactive cli programs (and it's not ctrl-d)." Surely it is when you detect the angry mashing of keys? There should really be a function for that in the standard library. Distinguishing such inputs from the actions of cats would be the difficult bit.
walterstucco 8y ago
And yet CTRL+D does not take you out from an Erlang console...
wink 8y ago
I find it highly unintuitive that ctrl-d only works on an empty line. So despite the fact I've known it for years (decaded at this point?) I still regularly want to exit mid-typed line. And no, it doesn't matter why this is a good thing or not - I'm just saying even if you've known it for years it's still not intuitive that an "end of a file" has to be on a new line.

by Jedd 8y ago

craigkerstiens 8y ago

The background of what you learned on is key to whats intuitive or natural. If you came up on an unix based system then yes you'd expect this. If you learned databases via MySQL then you'd expect show database to work. Today though many more are coming to development without an academic or linux background. If you install Postgres via Postgres.app there is a chance you're not at all familiar with a commandline. What is intuitive... yes it's relative to your background. I very much hope that the number quit or exit is intuitive for, those that don't come from a linux or academic background, grows of time. This does become a more valuable tool the more beginners there are, and personally from working with a lot of beginners already suspect it's more valuable than many realize.

tormeh 8y ago
Most CLIs can be exited with "quit" or "exit". Many trap Ctrl-C, so those two are the first things I try. Didn't know about Ctrl-D before now, and I've worked as a sysadm.
Jedd 8y ago
> The background of what you learned on is key to whats intuitive or natural. That's pretty much the summary of my post. > If you install Postgres via Postgres.app ... I had to go lookup what postgres.app actually is -- evidently it's an easy way for Mac users to install postgres. I don't have a Mac -- which is also true for most people -- so I can't speak to the average mac user's experience or expectations. As I have (had to repeatedly) say a few times now, I think it's great that multiple options to end the program are available. I'd imagine for Mac users the 'most intuitive' thing would be to find some magic symbol on their keyboard and combine it with the letter Q.
- solarengineer 8y ago
  Mac users either don't stop the service at all, or they use the GUI to do so (if they installed via the postgres.app tool)

freeopinion 8y ago

CTRL+D works. You like it. Great use that. You don't think anybody needs an alternative? Or you don't think having an alternative will help at all? Fine. Think what you want. One thing's for (mostly) certain: it doesn't hurt. So there's really nothing to complain about.

Jedd 8y ago
> CTRL+D works. You like it. Great use that. You don't think anybody needs an alternative? Or you don't think having an alternative will help at all? Fine. Think what you want. One thing's for (mostly) certain: it doesn't hurt. So there's really nothing to complain about. Not complaining about its presence, as per my comment : "While I think it's great to have both options present,..." Just observing that claims of 'more intuitive' interfaces are very subjective, and that it was unlikely to be a deal breaker for a new user.
- sverhagen 8y ago
  You don't think it's intuitive for a command line application that is entirely driven by commands, there to be a command to exit it? Instead of a key combination? I'm used to Ctrl+D now, but it sure took me a while to figure it out. Are we not confusing intuitive with standardized?
  - Jedd 8y ago
    I can't say if anyone else is confusing intuitive with standardised. I can repeat (again) that I think it's great both options are there. Given pretty much all the other 'standard' postgres commands are \[a-z] and sometimes \[a-z][a-z] it sounds like more a complaint about \q

cuboidGoat 8y ago

"You use the word intuitive a couple of times, and suggest there's a natural way to exit interactive cli programs (and it's not ctrl-d)." Surely it is when you detect the angry mashing of keys? There should really be a function for that in the standard library. Distinguishing such inputs from the actions of cats would be the difficult bit.

walterstucco 8y ago

And yet CTRL+D does not take you out from an Erlang console...

wink 8y ago

I find it highly unintuitive that ctrl-d only works on an empty line. So despite the fact I've known it for years (decaded at this point?) I still regularly want to exit mid-typed line. And no, it doesn't matter why this is a good thing or not - I'm just saying even if you've known it for years it's still not intuitive that an "end of a file" has to be on a new line.