5 ms·

Behind a very thin veil of social liberalism, we are in fact living in a profoundly conservative and conventional era. It's like this weird bohemian puritanism,

by api 8y ago

Behind a very thin veil of social liberalism, we are in fact living in a profoundly conservative and conventional era. It's like this weird bohemian puritanism, or the 50s with Tinder. The big difference is the religion. Back then it was nationalism and Christian puritanism. Now it's the worship of GDP and corporatism. These things are cyclic. In any case this is too bad. The first time I went to Boston my first stop after the airport was to be dragged to Senior House. Seemed like something out of a movie.

xfitm3 8y ago
I don't follow your point exactly but we both agree that the closure of the Senior House is too bad.
- api 8y ago
  I was talking about the social trend it represents, but it was kind of an incomplete thought.
nbhuik 8y ago
> Behind a very thin veil of social liberalism, we are in fact living in a profoundly conservative and conventional era. Maybe. Or it might be that social liberalism, at least in its current form, isn't that nice. Social liberalism compared to something like social democracy, or even various forms of "capitalism", takes the position that favorable rules are what grants you personal freedom. But it seemingly turns out that a lot of the things we care about exists in the practical realm. Having spent some, but fortunately not a lot of, time in oppressive countries it is always disappointing when you get back to the west and realize that overall it is still remarkably similar.
- inawarminister 8y ago
  humans are humans, anywhere in the world.
- swingline-747 8y ago
  Nawh. The change started in the 1980's but came into its own in the 1990's: people whom call themselves liberal behaving illiberally with a tiny vocal fringe telling the greater constituency what to do and what's acceptable: political correctness, crybully outrage tantrums and shouting-down opponents rather than making better arguments. It's not a left/right thing (partisanship is dumb) but an identity crisis meets identity politics/victimhood celebration thing. Let the Milo's and the other nutters speak. It's like any book that a group wants to burn or ban is probably a book worth reading. It shows integrity to be consistent and have thicker skin. Also, faculty, staff and parents have to set better examples and boundaries by not put up with crazy, unreasonableness or ridiculousness... extending adolescence longer and wrapping kids in a bubblewrap, reality-unmoored, spoiled artificial life is a fundamental disservice that's going to hit them harder when they get out in the real world.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
Religion is simply a selection of social values that individuals hold to be above evidence, critique, or question. We've replaced one religion with another. As the article states: "..the administration allege that those norms were exactly the problem in Senior House—that the strong culture in the dorm, far from being welcoming and supportive as the students contend, had become toxic, a negatively reinforcing environment. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle." It's funny actually. Anywhere you see the word 'toxic' replace it with 'against wholesome family values' and we've simply traversed to another side the horse shoe. And this didn't start in the 80s. This all goes in an oddly regular 20 year cycle. The liberal 20s, conservative 40s, liberal 60s, conservative 80s, liberal 00s, and now we're headed into the 20s. And it's the exact same pattern over and over, it starts out great but then as the dominant position reaches critical mass they appproach insanity and we start a trend in the other direction again reaching it's peak after about 10 years before it too ends up headed into insanity and we reverse once again. Well at least everybody can look forward to the 2030s!
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Except Americans gain freedoms over time such as civil rights for minorities, ability to choose abortion, gay marriage, environmental rights, etc. It’s not just bouncing back and forth, there is progress being made, unfortunately some keep trying to reverse it.
  - yspeak 8y ago
    Abortion only liberates men from responsibility. https://bit.ly/2puUc4J https://bit.ly/2puUc4J
- homonculus1 8y ago
  "toxic" is the new "problematic" is the new "offensive" is the new "sinful".
barry-cotter 8y ago
Worship of the GOP and corporatism? Give me a break. At least neoliberalism or late stage capitalism make sense. The GOP are in such a position of power in the universities that there isn’t a single science, physical or social l, humanity, or other field of study where there are more Republicans than Democrats. As to corporatism the US has much, much higher turnover in high cap companies than France or Germany. I think it’s akso substantially higher than the U.K. That points at something more akin to business friendliness/capitalism/creative destruction than fascist or ordo-liberal corporatism.
- trurl 8y ago
  There is perhaps a correlation between worshiping the GOP and worshiping the GDP, but they are two very different things.
- barbecue_sauce 8y ago
  You may want to put your glasses on and reread the post you're replying to.
throwobvs 8y ago
>Behind a very thin veil of social liberalism, we are in fact living in a profoundly conservative and conventional era. It's like this weird bohemian puritanism, or the 50s with Tinder. The big difference is the religion. Back then it was nationalism and Christian puritanism. OK you know what, you big bigot, "safe", behind your keyboard, I wish I could have a copy of every word you've said or typed, even "anonymously" or to a romantic partner who was "okay with it" - so that I could take it to your HR department and get you fired. Matter of fact I'm going to look through your post history now to see if I can put two and two together and figure out how to dox you. Views like yours have NO PLACE in society.. Expect to hear from HR by Monday afternoon. Just kidding. But I gave you a scare didn't I? The reason I gave you a scare is that the sentiment I've just expressed is PERFECTLY REASONABLE IN 2018. Perfectly reasonable people can behave this way with full support from the media. I'm not conservative, because to me conservative means keeping slaves and a lack of progress. But this isn't progress.
village-idiot 8y ago
The current crop of leaders grew up through the 1960s and 1970s, and seem absolutely determined to prevent that era from ever happening again.
Nasrudith 8y ago
Reminds me of the one hilarious thing about the USSR and when you look into their histories. They were basically exactly as uptight as the US despite lack of any religious motivations, convinced that the west was out to corrupt the youth just as the US was convinced the same about teenagers. They abhorred homosexuality despite a lack of religious basis for it and no real costs - it would save the state money to have their 'confirmed bachelor's living together openly. Really it is an authoritarianism thing over any other professed values. As generations of teenagers have told anyone who will listen what they really can't tolerate is anyone openly deviating from the norms - not as a result of any actual harm but because they fear and hate anyone who questions them. A non-authoritaran system doesn't give a fuck about trivial things and has a live and let live attitude.
purplezooey 8y ago
Great point but put on your helmet. Here comes the right wing comment avalanche.

by api 8y ago

xfitm3 8y ago

I don't follow your point exactly but we both agree that the closure of the Senior House is too bad.

api 8y ago
I was talking about the social trend it represents, but it was kind of an incomplete thought.

nbhuik 8y ago

> Behind a very thin veil of social liberalism, we are in fact living in a profoundly conservative and conventional era. Maybe. Or it might be that social liberalism, at least in its current form, isn't that nice. Social liberalism compared to something like social democracy, or even various forms of "capitalism", takes the position that favorable rules are what grants you personal freedom. But it seemingly turns out that a lot of the things we care about exists in the practical realm. Having spent some, but fortunately not a lot of, time in oppressive countries it is always disappointing when you get back to the west and realize that overall it is still remarkably similar.

inawarminister 8y ago
humans are humans, anywhere in the world.
swingline-747 8y ago
Nawh. The change started in the 1980's but came into its own in the 1990's: people whom call themselves liberal behaving illiberally with a tiny vocal fringe telling the greater constituency what to do and what's acceptable: political correctness, crybully outrage tantrums and shouting-down opponents rather than making better arguments. It's not a left/right thing (partisanship is dumb) but an identity crisis meets identity politics/victimhood celebration thing. Let the Milo's and the other nutters speak. It's like any book that a group wants to burn or ban is probably a book worth reading. It shows integrity to be consistent and have thicker skin. Also, faculty, staff and parents have to set better examples and boundaries by not put up with crazy, unreasonableness or ridiculousness... extending adolescence longer and wrapping kids in a bubblewrap, reality-unmoored, spoiled artificial life is a fundamental disservice that's going to hit them harder when they get out in the real world.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

Religion is simply a selection of social values that individuals hold to be above evidence, critique, or question. We've replaced one religion with another. As the article states: "..the administration allege that those norms were exactly the problem in Senior House—that the strong culture in the dorm, far from being welcoming and supportive as the students contend, had become toxic, a negatively reinforcing environment. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle." It's funny actually. Anywhere you see the word 'toxic' replace it with 'against wholesome family values' and we've simply traversed to another side the horse shoe. And this didn't start in the 80s. This all goes in an oddly regular 20 year cycle. The liberal 20s, conservative 40s, liberal 60s, conservative 80s, liberal 00s, and now we're headed into the 20s. And it's the exact same pattern over and over, it starts out great but then as the dominant position reaches critical mass they appproach insanity and we start a trend in the other direction again reaching it's peak after about 10 years before it too ends up headed into insanity and we reverse once again. Well at least everybody can look forward to the 2030s!

lotsofpulp 8y ago
Except Americans gain freedoms over time such as civil rights for minorities, ability to choose abortion, gay marriage, environmental rights, etc. It’s not just bouncing back and forth, there is progress being made, unfortunately some keep trying to reverse it.
- yspeak 8y ago
  Abortion only liberates men from responsibility. https://bit.ly/2puUc4J https://bit.ly/2puUc4J
homonculus1 8y ago
"toxic" is the new "problematic" is the new "offensive" is the new "sinful".

barry-cotter 8y ago

Worship of the GOP and corporatism? Give me a break. At least neoliberalism or late stage capitalism make sense. The GOP are in such a position of power in the universities that there isn’t a single science, physical or social l, humanity, or other field of study where there are more Republicans than Democrats. As to corporatism the US has much, much higher turnover in high cap companies than France or Germany. I think it’s akso substantially higher than the U.K. That points at something more akin to business friendliness/capitalism/creative destruction than fascist or ordo-liberal corporatism.

trurl 8y ago
There is perhaps a correlation between worshiping the GOP and worshiping the GDP, but they are two very different things.
barbecue_sauce 8y ago
You may want to put your glasses on and reread the post you're replying to.

throwobvs 8y ago

>Behind a very thin veil of social liberalism, we are in fact living in a profoundly conservative and conventional era. It's like this weird bohemian puritanism, or the 50s with Tinder. The big difference is the religion. Back then it was nationalism and Christian puritanism. OK you know what, you big bigot, "safe", behind your keyboard, I wish I could have a copy of every word you've said or typed, even "anonymously" or to a romantic partner who was "okay with it" - so that I could take it to your HR department and get you fired. Matter of fact I'm going to look through your post history now to see if I can put two and two together and figure out how to dox you. Views like yours have NO PLACE in society.. Expect to hear from HR by Monday afternoon. Just kidding. But I gave you a scare didn't I? The reason I gave you a scare is that the sentiment I've just expressed is PERFECTLY REASONABLE IN 2018. Perfectly reasonable people can behave this way with full support from the media. I'm not conservative, because to me conservative means keeping slaves and a lack of progress. But this isn't progress.

village-idiot 8y ago

The current crop of leaders grew up through the 1960s and 1970s, and seem absolutely determined to prevent that era from ever happening again.

Nasrudith 8y ago

Reminds me of the one hilarious thing about the USSR and when you look into their histories. They were basically exactly as uptight as the US despite lack of any religious motivations, convinced that the west was out to corrupt the youth just as the US was convinced the same about teenagers. They abhorred homosexuality despite a lack of religious basis for it and no real costs - it would save the state money to have their 'confirmed bachelor's living together openly. Really it is an authoritarianism thing over any other professed values. As generations of teenagers have told anyone who will listen what they really can't tolerate is anyone openly deviating from the norms - not as a result of any actual harm but because they fear and hate anyone who questions them. A non-authoritaran system doesn't give a fuck about trivial things and has a live and let live attitude.

purplezooey 8y ago

Great point but put on your helmet. Here comes the right wing comment avalanche.