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Fact of the matter is that there is a Chinese internet and a US internet. Going forward there will be a Chinese internet, that some authoritarian countries will

Fact of the matter is that there is a Chinese internet and a US internet. Going forward there will be a Chinese internet, that some authoritarian countries will adopt that are a part of the Chinese sphere of influence. American companies, and the American government through them want a foothold on that internet. This is the only way for them to do so. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/20/eric-schmidt-ex-google-ceo-predicts-internet-split-china.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/20/eric-schmidt-ex-google-ceo-p...

lph 8y ago
The idea that this appeasement will make Google a contender in China is blazingly ignorant of Chinese politics. No foreign company will ever be allowed to gain significant market share; it would be seen as a national security threat. The only way for Google would be to forge an equal partnership with a Chinese tech giant---Tencent, Alibaba, Huawei, or maybe one of the two dominant cell carriers. Google is selling out for nothing.
- 4cidix 8y ago
  the US has 1/4 of the population of China - I bet Google is hoping for a Chinese owned spin-off using Google technology, and wants to own 1/4 of the shares
- thisgoodlife 8y ago
  That's bs. Apple is making billions from China each year without any bs partnership.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - kyrra 8y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587304/apple-icloud-china-user-data-state-run-telecom-privacy-security https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587304/apple-icloud-chi... For iCloud, Apple partnered with a local Chinese entity.
  - 2600 8y ago
    Regarding iCloud, Apple has made decisions to bring Chinese iCloud in compliance with Chinese regulations. Chinese iCloud accounts, data, and encryption keys are stored with a Chinese firm overseen by the Chinese government.
    - bduerst 8y ago
      Yep. Apple moved their keys to be stored locally on state-owned servers, meaning that Apple has given the Chinese government access to Chinese user data. Apple even updated their TOS for it.
      - IBM 8y ago
        Not according to Apple [1]: >Apple says the joint venture does not mean that China has any kind of “backdoor” into user data and that Apple alone – not its Chinese partner – will control the encryption keys. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh...
        bduerst 8y ago
        That was back in February. Since then there's been some shuffling of the companies who own the servers with the keys so that China now has access. From July 2018: >Fast forward to today: China Telecom, a government owned telco, is taking over the iCloud data from Guizhou-Cloud Big Data. This essentially means that a state-owned firm now has access to all the iCloud data China-based users store, such as photos, notes, emails, and text messages. https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-data/#ahDzcDZPeiqd https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...
        IBM 8y ago
        That report doesn't say that Apple no longer retains control of the keys.
  - eastendguy 8y ago
    That is because Chinese manufactures still need Apple and Foxconn, iPhones are made (assembled) in China. Once that changes (i. e. in a few years) watch how new regulations will destroy or at least reduce the iPhone business.
  - jhayward 8y ago
    Apple has less than 10% of the market share in China.
    - snaky 8y ago
      And it shrinks. > With only seven million iPhones sold in China during the second quarter of 2018, Apple's market share in the country dropped by 12.5 percent year on year to 6.7 percent, according to a report by the International Data Corporation (IDC) And you can imagine why is that so. > Xiaomi pokes fun at Apple with phone, laptop, fitness tracker, and Bluetooth earphones bundles that cost the same as the new iPhones. Actually mocking the Apple might became the cultural thing in China. > Huawei has taken the act of mocking the newly launched iPhones to the next level in seemingly funny way. In Singapore, those who were waiting overnight for the release of the iPhone XS and XS Max, were handed power banks by the China-based tech giant. Some people wearing Huawei t-shirts started giving away power banks to the hundreds of people waiting in line to get their hands on the newly announced iPhones. Not just that, there’s a message on the power bank’s box which reads – “Here’s a power bank. You’ll need it. Courtesy of Huawei.”
      - r00fus 8y ago
        Mocking Apple? Your example sounds like a good advertising campaign by a competitor not some "pervasive cultural shift". It's like saying that the EU hated MS when Bill Gates got a pie in the face a few years ago. Plotting a curve with a single data point...
- John_KZ 8y ago
  >Google is selling out for nothing. I don't understand the notion. Google already censors anything they like with very advanced methods that even provide them with plausible deniability, high specificity etc. And I bet they're better than the Chinese at tracking literally everything you do online and connecting that with your real, offline identity, complete with your entire social network graph, your biometrics, SSN, income, race, personality type, political affiliations etc etc... And they already provide that data to governments upon request. Not a legal request, but an API request. The only thing I'd want explained about the article is how it would be physically possible to track users more closely than they currently do in the western world.
  - kgwxd 8y ago
    Censorship is a government action. When people and private companies do it, it's called filtering. There's a world of difference between an individual or company having control over data vs. a government. People and companies with heavy influence can mess things up a quite a bit, sure, but they can't arrest, imprison, sentence or put anyone to death.
    - amckinlay 8y ago
      And this time we actually have legitimate, real, censorship to fight.
    - whataboutthis 8y ago
      Censorship is not at all limited to government action. It is "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security." Anybody with suppressional power over information can do it. "Filtering" is not descriptive of what is happening either, that word trivializes and even gives the action a positive connotation. Filtering removes stuff nobody wants, it cleans, it gets rid of debris and trash. Beware of word subversion! If you try to make morally bankrupt actions harder to describe depending on the actor then you're attempting speech and thought control.
    - svachalek 8y ago
- ehsankia 8y ago
  Ok, they will never be as huge as local companies, but what's the downside to trying? Google being there doesn't make chinese access to internet any worse. If anything, their government would have to pump in more money into the local companies to stop Google from gaining a foothold, which would be a positive for their citizens.
  - sincerely 8y ago
    The downside to trying is being knowingly complicit in human rights abuse lol
    - aonwoajdndj 8y ago
      I hope I am not too cynical. I think this type of thinking leads to confusing the symptoms for the underlying problem. Ask yourself, are we complicit in human rights abuse? We all pay our taxes right? Where do our taxes go? Dictators propped up globally. How many dissidents were tortured and executed with the aid of our intelligence agencies? What about the ongoing Israeli human rights abuses -- illegal occupation and genocide are somehow less than important than Chinese speech moderation? We are so inconsistent. If we actually care about progress then we wouldn't get distracted by each instance of a problem. These posts, our comments... they are us trying to make ourselves feel better by spinning lies. Attack the underlying problems. Our problems are social problems, legal problems. Advocate. Spread awareness. Run for office. Volunteer. Tackle the problem.
      - sincerely 8y ago
        I have similar feelings sometimes but I am conflicted on the topic. Would you be interested in a discussion on this topic?
  - taysic 8y ago
    Wouldn't that money be funded by the citizens and potentially be a waste of resources, duplicating viable products?
yters 8y ago
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Nietzsche
- devoply 8y ago
  In terms of tracking everything and having a file on everyone Google and Western governments are already there. The only saving grace is that they don't use that information all the time to get people in trouble -- but they could, just look at the whole airport security thing. However, in terms of the ability to abuse, they are already well at par with anything China can do. And really it does not matter if they help China or not, China is more than capable of doing it all themselves given enough time. The difference will be that Western companies and governments will be left out of all of that... which to them is not good.
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    There's a major problem with this. Actions are what decide the values of an individual or a company. Nearly all horrible actions throughout history were certainly rationalized by at least one actor as reasonable and just, if not outright good. I've no doubt that your rationalization is likely similar to the rationalizations that the numerous US companies (IBM, Coke, Ford, Bayer, GM, Chase, etc) used when deciding to aid and support the Nazis. Of course in hindsight you judge these companies not by their rationalizations, but by their actions. And this is how it should be. Rationalizations or Machiavellianism are ironically myopic. The means (or rationalizations) do not justify the ends. The ends are rarely predictable and often are far different than what we may ever expect. By contrast we live, each and every day, through the direct consequences of the means. Many people find China's actions morally dubious, and Google is now directly engaging in behavior that will, at the minimum, enhance the ability of Chinese authorities to track and 'handle' individuals who run afoul of state interests. These actions are what inform you of Google's values.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
nradov 8y ago
Are you certain that's the only way for them to do so? I suspect that smart people could find effective technical means to undermine and circumvent the Great Firewall of China.
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  how long do you think china is going to tolerate Google doing that?
- echevil 8y ago
  It’s not that hard to circumvent actually. Also in major tech companies in China, employees can just use company network to access websites blocked by the firewall. But if you provide that as a service to general public, it’d get shutdown when it get popular
  - UnFleshedOne 8y ago
    I'm sure hey are actively working to solve that. Some details here are disturbing. https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideological-viruses/chinas-campaign-repression-against-xinjiangs https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideologica...
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
This is cognitive dissonance. You can create rationalizations for the worst of actions, and that's exactly what this is. The motivation is simply money and growth. China is a huge market that may, in the future, become the single most lucrative market in the world. They want in on this and are willing to toss any values they may have once held to pursue the profit and power potential of this market.
- wilsonnb3 8y ago
  Perhaps they are playing the long game. Actions against their values taken now will give them more power to act in line with their values in the future.
  - justtopost 8y ago
    That logic is so strained my head hurts.
  - eklavya 8y ago
    Sure, that must be it.
bduerst 8y ago
Aren't you also forgetting the EU internet? With GDPR and the "right to be forgotten" censorship?
amckinlay 8y ago
That sounds like a suspiciously confident prediction given the nature of the internet.
doctorpangloss 8y ago
> Fact of the matter is that there is a Chinese internet and a US internet. Sure, that's today. But you'd be crazy if you thought the CPC would be around forever.
B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
> there is a Chinese internet and a US internet. Well, that may supply an alternative to those barred from the US internet, cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18043141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18043141 It would be fun to watch that develop.

lph 8y ago

The idea that this appeasement will make Google a contender in China is blazingly ignorant of Chinese politics. No foreign company will ever be allowed to gain significant market share; it would be seen as a national security threat. The only way for Google would be to forge an equal partnership with a Chinese tech giant---Tencent, Alibaba, Huawei, or maybe one of the two dominant cell carriers. Google is selling out for nothing.

4cidix 8y ago
the US has 1/4 of the population of China - I bet Google is hoping for a Chinese owned spin-off using Google technology, and wants to own 1/4 of the shares
thisgoodlife 8y ago
That's bs. Apple is making billions from China each year without any bs partnership.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kyrra 8y ago
  https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587304/apple-icloud-china-user-data-state-run-telecom-privacy-security https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/18/17587304/apple-icloud-chi... For iCloud, Apple partnered with a local Chinese entity.
- 2600 8y ago
  Regarding iCloud, Apple has made decisions to bring Chinese iCloud in compliance with Chinese regulations. Chinese iCloud accounts, data, and encryption keys are stored with a Chinese firm overseen by the Chinese government.
  - bduerst 8y ago
    Yep. Apple moved their keys to be stored locally on state-owned servers, meaning that Apple has given the Chinese government access to Chinese user data. Apple even updated their TOS for it.
    - IBM 8y ago
      Not according to Apple [1]: >Apple says the joint venture does not mean that China has any kind of “backdoor” into user data and that Apple alone – not its Chinese partner – will control the encryption keys. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insight/apple-moves-to-store-icloud-keys-in-china-raising-human-rights-fears-idUSKCN1G8060 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-apple-icloud-insigh...
      - bduerst 8y ago
        That was back in February. Since then there's been some shuffling of the companies who own the servers with the keys so that China now has access. From July 2018: >Fast forward to today: China Telecom, a government owned telco, is taking over the iCloud data from Guizhou-Cloud Big Data. This essentially means that a state-owned firm now has access to all the iCloud data China-based users store, such as photos, notes, emails, and text messages. https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-data/#ahDzcDZPeiqd https://mashable.com/article/china-government-apple-icloud-d...
        IBM 8y ago
        That report doesn't say that Apple no longer retains control of the keys.
- eastendguy 8y ago
  That is because Chinese manufactures still need Apple and Foxconn, iPhones are made (assembled) in China. Once that changes (i. e. in a few years) watch how new regulations will destroy or at least reduce the iPhone business.
- jhayward 8y ago
  Apple has less than 10% of the market share in China.
  - snaky 8y ago
    And it shrinks. > With only seven million iPhones sold in China during the second quarter of 2018, Apple's market share in the country dropped by 12.5 percent year on year to 6.7 percent, according to a report by the International Data Corporation (IDC) And you can imagine why is that so. > Xiaomi pokes fun at Apple with phone, laptop, fitness tracker, and Bluetooth earphones bundles that cost the same as the new iPhones. Actually mocking the Apple might became the cultural thing in China. > Huawei has taken the act of mocking the newly launched iPhones to the next level in seemingly funny way. In Singapore, those who were waiting overnight for the release of the iPhone XS and XS Max, were handed power banks by the China-based tech giant. Some people wearing Huawei t-shirts started giving away power banks to the hundreds of people waiting in line to get their hands on the newly announced iPhones. Not just that, there’s a message on the power bank’s box which reads – “Here’s a power bank. You’ll need it. Courtesy of Huawei.”
    - r00fus 8y ago
      Mocking Apple? Your example sounds like a good advertising campaign by a competitor not some "pervasive cultural shift". It's like saying that the EU hated MS when Bill Gates got a pie in the face a few years ago. Plotting a curve with a single data point...
John_KZ 8y ago
>Google is selling out for nothing. I don't understand the notion. Google already censors anything they like with very advanced methods that even provide them with plausible deniability, high specificity etc. And I bet they're better than the Chinese at tracking literally everything you do online and connecting that with your real, offline identity, complete with your entire social network graph, your biometrics, SSN, income, race, personality type, political affiliations etc etc... And they already provide that data to governments upon request. Not a legal request, but an API request. The only thing I'd want explained about the article is how it would be physically possible to track users more closely than they currently do in the western world.
- kgwxd 8y ago
  Censorship is a government action. When people and private companies do it, it's called filtering. There's a world of difference between an individual or company having control over data vs. a government. People and companies with heavy influence can mess things up a quite a bit, sure, but they can't arrest, imprison, sentence or put anyone to death.
  - amckinlay 8y ago
    And this time we actually have legitimate, real, censorship to fight.
  - whataboutthis 8y ago
    Censorship is not at all limited to government action. It is "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security." Anybody with suppressional power over information can do it. "Filtering" is not descriptive of what is happening either, that word trivializes and even gives the action a positive connotation. Filtering removes stuff nobody wants, it cleans, it gets rid of debris and trash. Beware of word subversion! If you try to make morally bankrupt actions harder to describe depending on the actor then you're attempting speech and thought control.
  - svachalek 8y ago
ehsankia 8y ago
Ok, they will never be as huge as local companies, but what's the downside to trying? Google being there doesn't make chinese access to internet any worse. If anything, their government would have to pump in more money into the local companies to stop Google from gaining a foothold, which would be a positive for their citizens.
- sincerely 8y ago
  The downside to trying is being knowingly complicit in human rights abuse lol
  - aonwoajdndj 8y ago
    I hope I am not too cynical. I think this type of thinking leads to confusing the symptoms for the underlying problem. Ask yourself, are we complicit in human rights abuse? We all pay our taxes right? Where do our taxes go? Dictators propped up globally. How many dissidents were tortured and executed with the aid of our intelligence agencies? What about the ongoing Israeli human rights abuses -- illegal occupation and genocide are somehow less than important than Chinese speech moderation? We are so inconsistent. If we actually care about progress then we wouldn't get distracted by each instance of a problem. These posts, our comments... they are us trying to make ourselves feel better by spinning lies. Attack the underlying problems. Our problems are social problems, legal problems. Advocate. Spread awareness. Run for office. Volunteer. Tackle the problem.
    - sincerely 8y ago
      I have similar feelings sometimes but I am conflicted on the topic. Would you be interested in a discussion on this topic?
- taysic 8y ago
  Wouldn't that money be funded by the citizens and potentially be a waste of resources, duplicating viable products?

yters 8y ago

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Nietzsche

devoply 8y ago
In terms of tracking everything and having a file on everyone Google and Western governments are already there. The only saving grace is that they don't use that information all the time to get people in trouble -- but they could, just look at the whole airport security thing. However, in terms of the ability to abuse, they are already well at par with anything China can do. And really it does not matter if they help China or not, China is more than capable of doing it all themselves given enough time. The difference will be that Western companies and governments will be left out of all of that... which to them is not good.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  There's a major problem with this. Actions are what decide the values of an individual or a company. Nearly all horrible actions throughout history were certainly rationalized by at least one actor as reasonable and just, if not outright good. I've no doubt that your rationalization is likely similar to the rationalizations that the numerous US companies (IBM, Coke, Ford, Bayer, GM, Chase, etc) used when deciding to aid and support the Nazis. Of course in hindsight you judge these companies not by their rationalizations, but by their actions. And this is how it should be. Rationalizations or Machiavellianism are ironically myopic. The means (or rationalizations) do not justify the ends. The ends are rarely predictable and often are far different than what we may ever expect. By contrast we live, each and every day, through the direct consequences of the means. Many people find China's actions morally dubious, and Google is now directly engaging in behavior that will, at the minimum, enhance the ability of Chinese authorities to track and 'handle' individuals who run afoul of state interests. These actions are what inform you of Google's values.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

nradov 8y ago

Are you certain that's the only way for them to do so? I suspect that smart people could find effective technical means to undermine and circumvent the Great Firewall of China.

throwaway2048 8y ago
how long do you think china is going to tolerate Google doing that?
echevil 8y ago
It’s not that hard to circumvent actually. Also in major tech companies in China, employees can just use company network to access websites blocked by the firewall. But if you provide that as a service to general public, it’d get shutdown when it get popular
- UnFleshedOne 8y ago
  I'm sure hey are actively working to solve that. Some details here are disturbing. https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideological-viruses/chinas-campaign-repression-against-xinjiangs https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideologica...

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

This is cognitive dissonance. You can create rationalizations for the worst of actions, and that's exactly what this is. The motivation is simply money and growth. China is a huge market that may, in the future, become the single most lucrative market in the world. They want in on this and are willing to toss any values they may have once held to pursue the profit and power potential of this market.

wilsonnb3 8y ago
Perhaps they are playing the long game. Actions against their values taken now will give them more power to act in line with their values in the future.
- justtopost 8y ago
  That logic is so strained my head hurts.
- eklavya 8y ago
  Sure, that must be it.

bduerst 8y ago

Aren't you also forgetting the EU internet? With GDPR and the "right to be forgotten" censorship?

amckinlay 8y ago

That sounds like a suspiciously confident prediction given the nature of the internet.

doctorpangloss 8y ago

> Fact of the matter is that there is a Chinese internet and a US internet. Sure, that's today. But you'd be crazy if you thought the CPC would be around forever.

B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago

> there is a Chinese internet and a US internet. Well, that may supply an alternative to those barred from the US internet, cf. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18043141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18043141 It would be fun to watch that develop.