6 ms·

Yep and if the teacher doesn’t arrive in 10 minutes you can legally leave the class room. Come on. If you modify the device to work in a way it wasn’t intended

by gehsty 8y ago

Yep and if the teacher doesn’t arrive in 10 minutes you can legally leave the class room. Come on. If you modify the device to work in a way it wasn’t intended (eg overclocked) you have clearly voided the warranty. This is what this is there to detect.

mjones72 8y ago
https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/legal/flashingdevices.en.html https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/legal/flashingdevices.en.html You are moving the goalposts, because we were talking about "changing the ROM", not about "changing the ROM and then doing something that will fuck the hardware up"
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  The point is that changing the ROM allows the user to do something that will "fuck the hardware". Presumably the stock ROM doesn't allow overclocking.
  - mjones72 8y ago
    Even if changing the ROM allows me to break the hardware, just by changing the ROM I don't lose my right to have the mobile repaired under free warranty. The manufacturer has to prove I managed to break the hardware only because I changed the ROM. By the way, if you fuck up the CPU by overclocking it I guarantee they won't notice it because they will just throw the entire motherboard away. The subcontracted company that fixes your mobile (it's almost never the manufacturer) won't spend their time doing some CSI on it.
- 1023bytes 8y ago
  Yep, in the EU it's definitely illegal.
- gehsty 8y ago
  I think it’s fair for a device manufacturer to say you have voided the warranty if you load a 3rd party ROM onto the device, the device manufacturer has no control over the 3rd party software, how safe it is to run etc. If the 3rd party rom bricks the device why should the supplier pick up the bill when they haven’t approved the software that did the damage?
hyperman1 8y ago
Most western countries already had this discussion. There were car makers voiding warranties when users replaced a tire. They gave the same arguments: Users modifying the car might do anything, so better give them no chance, as nobody could ever walk safely on the streets again. Wiser heads prevailed, and e.g. the USA created the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. It is today legal to replace tires on your car. It is nevertheless illegal to make it non-street-worthy. If you stupidly damage your car while replacing a tire, you do in fact void your wararanty. If reality isn't clear enough, a judge decides. While streets might not be that safe, it is extremely rare that modified vehicles are part of the problem. The system works. Why do we have to rediscuss all of this again? Exactly the same idea is applicable to software.
- gehsty 8y ago
  I’d say this is more like remapping the ecu, not really like changing tires...if you mapped the ecu to run in an unsafe way (increased engine pressure etc) then you have voided the warranty.
  - hyperman1 8y ago
    You made 2 independent changes to this example: Replace tire with ECU, and add 'in an unsafe way'. The important point is that the second of your changes is the one that voided the warranty: Replacing the tire to run in an unsafe way will void your warranty too. Modifying the ECU, on itself, doesn't do anything to the warranty. And it is up to the manufacturer to prove your specific modification is unsafe. Claiming that some parts are inherently so complex that any change voids your warranty is legal bullshit for cars. If I understand your argument well, it is that for cell phones the OS is so complex that any person on this planet should be declared unfit to make changes to it, except the manufacturer. * First of all, the very audience of this site disproves this statement. Note the 'hacker' in hacker news. * Second, I invite you to take a look to the garbage you find in most software powering our hardware. Someone going trough the effort to examine a device and create a modification is almost guaranteed to create better quality. There is something Darwinian going on here: Software mods, when they are supported for some time, give by their very existence away something of the persistent and qualified nature of their creator (otherwise they would not have been published). * Third, the nature of software is that it is hard to create and easy to copy. Only 1 person has to create the firmware modification. The rest of us can copy it. This is exactly the reverse of the tire example and makes firmware mods a lot more easy. UPDATE: After rereading, this post sees a bit harsh and a personal attack. So let me add that I have respect for your 2 posts. You provide a valid viewpoint in a reasonably toned, adult post. I also respond to more than can be found in your posts alone. I disagree with people downvoting you. I do however respectfully believe your viewpoint is incorrect and dangerous.
kevin_b_er 8y ago
If you modify your car in any way, have you voided the warranty? This is a lie sold to you to convince you to give up control to the manufacturers, to make a warranty a flimsy and easily discarded thing. Their products are getting lower in long term quality and reliability each year, but they don't want to take responsibility for them.
- gehsty 8y ago
  If you purposefully bypass control measures that maintain the integrity of the cpu, then run the cpu outside of what it is supposed to do, you have voided the warranty. If you modify your cars engine increasing the pressure in the cylinders beyond what they are designed to handle you have voided the warranty, and wouldn’t be covered when the seals fail etc. Your warranty covers the intended use cases. It does not cover you t do what ever you want...

by gehsty 8y ago

mjones72 8y ago

https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/legal/flashingdevices.en.html https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/legal/flashingdevices.en.html You are moving the goalposts, because we were talking about "changing the ROM", not about "changing the ROM and then doing something that will fuck the hardware up"

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
The point is that changing the ROM allows the user to do something that will "fuck the hardware". Presumably the stock ROM doesn't allow overclocking.
- mjones72 8y ago
  Even if changing the ROM allows me to break the hardware, just by changing the ROM I don't lose my right to have the mobile repaired under free warranty. The manufacturer has to prove I managed to break the hardware only because I changed the ROM. By the way, if you fuck up the CPU by overclocking it I guarantee they won't notice it because they will just throw the entire motherboard away. The subcontracted company that fixes your mobile (it's almost never the manufacturer) won't spend their time doing some CSI on it.
1023bytes 8y ago
Yep, in the EU it's definitely illegal.
gehsty 8y ago
I think it’s fair for a device manufacturer to say you have voided the warranty if you load a 3rd party ROM onto the device, the device manufacturer has no control over the 3rd party software, how safe it is to run etc. If the 3rd party rom bricks the device why should the supplier pick up the bill when they haven’t approved the software that did the damage?

hyperman1 8y ago

Most western countries already had this discussion. There were car makers voiding warranties when users replaced a tire. They gave the same arguments: Users modifying the car might do anything, so better give them no chance, as nobody could ever walk safely on the streets again. Wiser heads prevailed, and e.g. the USA created the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. It is today legal to replace tires on your car. It is nevertheless illegal to make it non-street-worthy. If you stupidly damage your car while replacing a tire, you do in fact void your wararanty. If reality isn't clear enough, a judge decides. While streets might not be that safe, it is extremely rare that modified vehicles are part of the problem. The system works. Why do we have to rediscuss all of this again? Exactly the same idea is applicable to software.

gehsty 8y ago
I’d say this is more like remapping the ecu, not really like changing tires...if you mapped the ecu to run in an unsafe way (increased engine pressure etc) then you have voided the warranty.
- hyperman1 8y ago
  You made 2 independent changes to this example: Replace tire with ECU, and add 'in an unsafe way'. The important point is that the second of your changes is the one that voided the warranty: Replacing the tire to run in an unsafe way will void your warranty too. Modifying the ECU, on itself, doesn't do anything to the warranty. And it is up to the manufacturer to prove your specific modification is unsafe. Claiming that some parts are inherently so complex that any change voids your warranty is legal bullshit for cars. If I understand your argument well, it is that for cell phones the OS is so complex that any person on this planet should be declared unfit to make changes to it, except the manufacturer. * First of all, the very audience of this site disproves this statement. Note the 'hacker' in hacker news. * Second, I invite you to take a look to the garbage you find in most software powering our hardware. Someone going trough the effort to examine a device and create a modification is almost guaranteed to create better quality. There is something Darwinian going on here: Software mods, when they are supported for some time, give by their very existence away something of the persistent and qualified nature of their creator (otherwise they would not have been published). * Third, the nature of software is that it is hard to create and easy to copy. Only 1 person has to create the firmware modification. The rest of us can copy it. This is exactly the reverse of the tire example and makes firmware mods a lot more easy. UPDATE: After rereading, this post sees a bit harsh and a personal attack. So let me add that I have respect for your 2 posts. You provide a valid viewpoint in a reasonably toned, adult post. I also respond to more than can be found in your posts alone. I disagree with people downvoting you. I do however respectfully believe your viewpoint is incorrect and dangerous.

kevin_b_er 8y ago

If you modify your car in any way, have you voided the warranty? This is a lie sold to you to convince you to give up control to the manufacturers, to make a warranty a flimsy and easily discarded thing. Their products are getting lower in long term quality and reliability each year, but they don't want to take responsibility for them.

gehsty 8y ago
If you purposefully bypass control measures that maintain the integrity of the cpu, then run the cpu outside of what it is supposed to do, you have voided the warranty. If you modify your cars engine increasing the pressure in the cylinders beyond what they are designed to handle you have voided the warranty, and wouldn’t be covered when the seals fail etc. Your warranty covers the intended use cases. It does not cover you t do what ever you want...