6 ms·

Yikes. Using this is almost certainly illegal (cheating) in every jurisdiction, and could have significant penalties. This video and the github repository its

by rbobby 8y ago

Yikes. Using this is almost certainly illegal (cheating) in every jurisdiction, and could have significant penalties. This video and the github repository itself could be a crime... teaching someone how to cheat using a cheating device. Heck even publicizing the video could get one sucked into the potential mess. Intention may play a part (i.e. was there any criminal intent in making the video/code/etc). Would depend entirely on jurisdiction and the specifics of the legislation. Sure... it's a fun/cool project with lots of tricky parts to get right/play with. But I think the author should exercise a bit more caution. If you need a lawyer to be sure that your project won't land you in jail... perhaps choosing a different project would be a good idea.

Someone1234 8y ago
Which specific law(s) do you believe this breaks? While it is illegal for the house to cheat most places, and while a punter may break other laws trying to cheat (e.g. trespassing, tampering, etc), I'm not aware of a specific law against cheating. I'm also not aware of a law banning the distribution of materials that may help one cheat (except DMCA? Copyright?).
- lgas 8y ago
  Depends on the jurisdiction but for example in Las Vegas (http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/ http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/) I believe this would fall under NRS 465.070 numbers 2, 5, and/or 7.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    2, and 5 only apply to "game[s] or other event[s]" which has a specific definition (namely it is about e.g. sports betting and other live events). 7 doesn't apply at all since he didn't alter or manipulate the machine in question, it is working as intended. Plus the claim was: > in every jurisdiction Nevada has some of the most strict gambling laws in the world (and showing it is illegal in Nevada hasn't even been satisfied yet).
  - Asooka 8y ago
    Well, this cheat is equivalent in operation to having a book with all the answers to the quiz and a good index. The two should be equivalently legal, and I strongly suspect someone has tried to sit at a quiz machine with a curated indexed encyclopedia, so we just have to find that precedent.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      There won't be a precedent because you just can't look up into fast enough, that's why these systems can still exist even with internet search engines.
  - jamesough 8y ago
    It's legally not a gambling machine -- it's a 'game of skill', which means you can put it in a pub without a license. Gambling laws don't apply.
- Timmah 8y ago
  There are laws in the US that ban using any machine that enhances your ability to win, even if you never tamper with the machine. This covers attacking the RNG by analyzing past outcomes and predicting future outcomes of the machine. Not what the OPs post does, but just clarifying that you can be charged with cheating even if you don't tamper in the US.
  - TylerE 8y ago
    Wonder if you print a directory indexed by say the first two word of the question. Not sure that would be fast enough but would be fully legal since it isn’t a device. Would be the same thing as a reference on perfect blackjack strategy which any casino allows (and most sell in the gift shop).
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    Which laws?
- wallflower 8y ago
  Even if it does not break any laws, if they suspect you are cheating they can just ban you from the casino and blacklist you from all casinos. Alternatively... There is a scene in the movie Casino where there are two guys collaborating and cheating at a table game. One of the internal security people dressed discretely in a suit walks up with a cattle prod. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYa1IsxGVuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYa1IsxGVuc
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > There is a scene in the movie Casino where there are two guys collaborating and cheating at a table game. One of the internal security people dressed discretely in a suit walks up with a cattle prod. It's a movie, that would never happen in any big casino (for one, way too many witnesses).
- notzuck 8y ago
  Computer Misuse Act 1990. I will drop a message to my wider network and see if there is a section that could be interpreted to fit this situation. Two issue would be: 1. Using a computer device to commit fraud. 2. Accessing the ROM which was digitally protected as well as not intended for general public consumption.
  - wongarsu 8y ago
    Fraud requires deception, which didn't happen in my eyes. Decrypting the XORd questions and answers could be interpreted as breaking digital protection though.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      As far as we know he legitimately acquired the ROM, he didn't hack the machine, he learnt about that type of machine. If you used this against a machine in the wild you're using the machine in the intended way. The access is authorised; there's no interdition to using reference sources. It doesn't seem like a breech of UK CMA to me. If the OP published the ROM then it's possibly copyright infringement.
      - jamesough 8y ago
        Yep.
umvi 8y ago
If it's a public machine, (i.e. in an airport) I don't see how it could be illegal. If you have to sign forms saying you won't cheat before you play... well, that's different.
LogicX 8y ago
Can’t tell if trolling, or you genuinely believe this. Are you talking about outside the USA?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Janeman544 8y ago
Not true and please do not scare the coder here unless you are a lawyer. Firstly, writing code itself can never be a crime irrespective of how that code might be used. In most of these cases you need to show a victim. If there is no house that lost money because of this guy, if no machine was tempered or someone's code was not stolen I think you are perfectly in green. Also if the machine is public then using camera and other devices can not be a crime. A house might catch you if you are using a camera on your body to cheat the machine but it is unlikely going to lead to any kind of criminal charges. If these slot machines can actually be hacked like this and house loses money they will simply get rid of those machines. First rule about cheating a casino : You don't tell others about it.
yason 8y ago
This poses an interesting question. How simple an algorithm can be so that "cheating" it is still considered illegal? At which point it becomes the machine owner's loss instead of the player being guilty of cheating? Suppose that there is a game that produces random numbers and asks the player whether the next number will be odd or even. If the player guesses correctly he will gain a point and if he guesses wrong he will lose a point. Eventually the machine will pay some amount of cash for points collected. Now, it turns out that the machine happens to produce an odd number after each even number, and an even number after each odd number. If (and when) the player figures that out he can rack up points and get a good payout from the machine. Nobody would dare to accuse the player being a cheater because it's so plain obvious that the machine is just programmed in a stupid way. Now, let's consider a game that is more complex but still simple enough that you could figure out the algorithm either in your head or by feeding a long enough sequence of the game state to a computer to be processed offline. Then after you've reverse-engineered the algorithm you can play it yourself and you'll know at least something that will happen in the game, ahead of the time. Time to cash the machine again. Is this still not cheating? How about reading the machine's binary dump found on the internet and rebuilding the game algorithm that way, then abusing the knowledge for gains when playing the machine. Cheating or not cheating? Why? How complex the algorithm needs to be for beating it to be considered cheating? How would it matter where the understanding came from? As in the article, if the game can be reduced to a database of a number of multiple-choice questions and the answer bit for each correct option, how much protection from "hacking" does the game enjoy and why? Especially if the questions could be answered by knowledge acquired from regular studies instead of reading them from the binary dump? How much complexity is required for this sort of protection? And how about different people considering the game's inner workings very complex vs rather simple? If for one an impenetrable oracle of quizzes is a simple exercise for some other, where does illegality come into play? When does it become the loss of the game machine's owner or maker if we keep considering ever poorer and poorer implementations?
- airstrike 8y ago
  > Then after you've reverse-engineered the algorithm you can play it yourself and you'll know at least something that will happen in the game, ahead of the time. Time to cash the machine again. Is this still not cheating? Sounds like counting cards. From Wikipedia, "Card counting is not illegal under British law, nor is it under federal, state, or local laws in the United States provided that no external card counting device or person assists the player in counting cards. Still, casinos object to the practice, and try to prevent it, banning players believed to be counters." So you may not go to jail, but maybe you'll get shot in the back of the head
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gammateam 8y ago
cmon you know the drill git clone and move on especially if something looks hot and obviously won't be up for long. forks won't preserve it

by rbobby 8y ago

Someone1234 8y ago

Which specific law(s) do you believe this breaks? While it is illegal for the house to cheat most places, and while a punter may break other laws trying to cheat (e.g. trespassing, tampering, etc), I'm not aware of a specific law against cheating. I'm also not aware of a law banning the distribution of materials that may help one cheat (except DMCA? Copyright?).

lgas 8y ago
Depends on the jurisdiction but for example in Las Vegas (http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/ http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/) I believe this would fall under NRS 465.070 numbers 2, 5, and/or 7.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Someone1234 8y ago
  2, and 5 only apply to "game[s] or other event[s]" which has a specific definition (namely it is about e.g. sports betting and other live events). 7 doesn't apply at all since he didn't alter or manipulate the machine in question, it is working as intended. Plus the claim was: > in every jurisdiction Nevada has some of the most strict gambling laws in the world (and showing it is illegal in Nevada hasn't even been satisfied yet).
- Asooka 8y ago
  Well, this cheat is equivalent in operation to having a book with all the answers to the quiz and a good index. The two should be equivalently legal, and I strongly suspect someone has tried to sit at a quiz machine with a curated indexed encyclopedia, so we just have to find that precedent.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    There won't be a precedent because you just can't look up into fast enough, that's why these systems can still exist even with internet search engines.
- jamesough 8y ago
  It's legally not a gambling machine -- it's a 'game of skill', which means you can put it in a pub without a license. Gambling laws don't apply.
Timmah 8y ago
There are laws in the US that ban using any machine that enhances your ability to win, even if you never tamper with the machine. This covers attacking the RNG by analyzing past outcomes and predicting future outcomes of the machine. Not what the OPs post does, but just clarifying that you can be charged with cheating even if you don't tamper in the US.
- TylerE 8y ago
  Wonder if you print a directory indexed by say the first two word of the question. Not sure that would be fast enough but would be fully legal since it isn’t a device. Would be the same thing as a reference on perfect blackjack strategy which any casino allows (and most sell in the gift shop).
- Someone1234 8y ago
  Which laws?
wallflower 8y ago
Even if it does not break any laws, if they suspect you are cheating they can just ban you from the casino and blacklist you from all casinos. Alternatively... There is a scene in the movie Casino where there are two guys collaborating and cheating at a table game. One of the internal security people dressed discretely in a suit walks up with a cattle prod. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYa1IsxGVuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYa1IsxGVuc
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > There is a scene in the movie Casino where there are two guys collaborating and cheating at a table game. One of the internal security people dressed discretely in a suit walks up with a cattle prod. It's a movie, that would never happen in any big casino (for one, way too many witnesses).
notzuck 8y ago
Computer Misuse Act 1990. I will drop a message to my wider network and see if there is a section that could be interpreted to fit this situation. Two issue would be: 1. Using a computer device to commit fraud. 2. Accessing the ROM which was digitally protected as well as not intended for general public consumption.
- wongarsu 8y ago
  Fraud requires deception, which didn't happen in my eyes. Decrypting the XORd questions and answers could be interpreted as breaking digital protection though.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    As far as we know he legitimately acquired the ROM, he didn't hack the machine, he learnt about that type of machine. If you used this against a machine in the wild you're using the machine in the intended way. The access is authorised; there's no interdition to using reference sources. It doesn't seem like a breech of UK CMA to me. If the OP published the ROM then it's possibly copyright infringement.
    - jamesough 8y ago
      Yep.

umvi 8y ago

If it's a public machine, (i.e. in an airport) I don't see how it could be illegal. If you have to sign forms saying you won't cheat before you play... well, that's different.

LogicX 8y ago

Can’t tell if trolling, or you genuinely believe this. Are you talking about outside the USA?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Janeman544 8y ago

Not true and please do not scare the coder here unless you are a lawyer. Firstly, writing code itself can never be a crime irrespective of how that code might be used. In most of these cases you need to show a victim. If there is no house that lost money because of this guy, if no machine was tempered or someone's code was not stolen I think you are perfectly in green. Also if the machine is public then using camera and other devices can not be a crime. A house might catch you if you are using a camera on your body to cheat the machine but it is unlikely going to lead to any kind of criminal charges. If these slot machines can actually be hacked like this and house loses money they will simply get rid of those machines. First rule about cheating a casino : You don't tell others about it.

yason 8y ago

This poses an interesting question. How simple an algorithm can be so that "cheating" it is still considered illegal? At which point it becomes the machine owner's loss instead of the player being guilty of cheating? Suppose that there is a game that produces random numbers and asks the player whether the next number will be odd or even. If the player guesses correctly he will gain a point and if he guesses wrong he will lose a point. Eventually the machine will pay some amount of cash for points collected. Now, it turns out that the machine happens to produce an odd number after each even number, and an even number after each odd number. If (and when) the player figures that out he can rack up points and get a good payout from the machine. Nobody would dare to accuse the player being a cheater because it's so plain obvious that the machine is just programmed in a stupid way. Now, let's consider a game that is more complex but still simple enough that you could figure out the algorithm either in your head or by feeding a long enough sequence of the game state to a computer to be processed offline. Then after you've reverse-engineered the algorithm you can play it yourself and you'll know at least something that will happen in the game, ahead of the time. Time to cash the machine again. Is this still not cheating? How about reading the machine's binary dump found on the internet and rebuilding the game algorithm that way, then abusing the knowledge for gains when playing the machine. Cheating or not cheating? Why? How complex the algorithm needs to be for beating it to be considered cheating? How would it matter where the understanding came from? As in the article, if the game can be reduced to a database of a number of multiple-choice questions and the answer bit for each correct option, how much protection from "hacking" does the game enjoy and why? Especially if the questions could be answered by knowledge acquired from regular studies instead of reading them from the binary dump? How much complexity is required for this sort of protection? And how about different people considering the game's inner workings very complex vs rather simple? If for one an impenetrable oracle of quizzes is a simple exercise for some other, where does illegality come into play? When does it become the loss of the game machine's owner or maker if we keep considering ever poorer and poorer implementations?

airstrike 8y ago
> Then after you've reverse-engineered the algorithm you can play it yourself and you'll know at least something that will happen in the game, ahead of the time. Time to cash the machine again. Is this still not cheating? Sounds like counting cards. From Wikipedia, "Card counting is not illegal under British law, nor is it under federal, state, or local laws in the United States provided that no external card counting device or person assists the player in counting cards. Still, casinos object to the practice, and try to prevent it, banning players believed to be counters." So you may not go to jail, but maybe you'll get shot in the back of the head

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

gammateam 8y ago

cmon you know the drill git clone and move on especially if something looks hot and obviously won't be up for long. forks won't preserve it