8 ms·

China’s all-seeing surveillance network

124 points by playpause 8y ago

Numberwang 8y ago
I think the concept of social credit has a lot of merits. But the risk for overreach is substantial unfortunately. I'd love to get rid of people who are unable to ride a train like a social human from the trains and lock people out of cinemas who can't behave as one should expect.
- infiniteseeker 8y ago
  And I’d love to give people who have similar views to you (on this matter) a -1 score for life. Who’s right?
  - Numberwang 8y ago
    Well the rules should be known just as laws are, not a personal opinion by Mr Inifinitypants.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- raxxorrax 8y ago
  > I'd love to get rid of people who are unable to ride a train Really? I am for getting rid of people who use trains. No personal transport? You are probably just too poor... But yeah, generally we should indeed welcome data collection about every detail of our personal lives. Because you know what would be the benefit? Watching star wars without this stinky nerd that always spoils the next 10 minutes of the movie. I can see no argument how you could be against this anymore.
yurie_breschnef 8y ago
I think this is a horrible idea. Just imagine how many times we have been wrong in our judgement of the behaviour of citizens. What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions? We have proven time and time again that there is no sure way to judge how "social and acceptable" something is, and the value of a behaviour to our society. What is seen as "unsocial" today may be applauded by historians in the future.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- RustySpottedCat 8y ago
  Yes but saying "screw the government" on social media today, doesn't really matter if it's going to be applauded in the future, it's still going to be aimed at the government, which is the whole point of the system.
  - yurie_breschnef 8y ago
    Could you elaborate?
- FundThrowaway 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's half of the point, stop any radicals from forming large followings.
  - mtgx 8y ago
    Where radical means those that those the people in power in any way.
- ag71668 8y ago
  > What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions? Their scores would be low. That's the whole point of these systems. Surveillance and these metrics were never about making the world a better place, they're about identifying threats to the status quo so that they can be neutralized before they become impactful. A government's definition of 'terrorist' or 'threat' is not some shady guy that wants to blow up a train station, it's literally anyone who is a credible threat to how the current system runs, anyone who could conceivably change things in a manner not approved by those currently in power. You talk about Martin Luther King, then surely you're aware to what extents the government of the time went to try to shut him down. All the major governments have invested billions of dollars into studying how uprisings and upsets happen, how to predict them, and how to curb them. The only figures that will now rise to public prominence are those that are vetted by the existing power structure.
yesenadam 8y ago
Better title - Social credit: China's digital dictatorship Pretty horrifying story, sounds like Black Mirror.
- bopbop 8y ago
  Yeah, the title is awful - I was happier with the article then I thought I'd be, as it did go in to some of the negative points. To point to any atomic automatic judgment of ones citizens based on their beliefs as a good thing is a bit of a weird view, however. The examples they give are all terrifying. It's also not great that the lady they report as pro social credit is only revealed later on in the piece as being married to a high ranking party member. She's introduced as "a marketing professional" when I'd argue the most relevant facts towards her support/non-support of such a system would be that she is married to "a civil servant in the justice department, a loyal cadre to the party." The article makes several strange emotional appeals regarding her, actually. For instance, I'm glad she "married for love", but I don't see why it would be relevant to the issue at hand unless it was an attempt to further humanize her and, by extension, this new Permanent Spotlight system.
  - bopbop 8y ago
    Just for reference the original title was 'Leave no dark corner'
    - perilunar 8y ago
      I get that as a page title, but a different 'title' in the URL. Maybe they are AB testing the title?
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    > I'm glad she "married for love", but I don't see why it would be relevant They're just making the point that she didn't marry him for his social credit score, even though he happens to have a high score under the system. To quote the article immediately prior to that section: "Who your friends and family are will affect your score. If your best friend or your dad says something negative about the government, you’ll lose points too. Who you date and ultimately partner with will also affect social credit." It seems like your social credit score is positioned as your key to happiness. Better not get a bad one or associate with anyone who did. Better not wreck your child's future by saying something bad about the government.
sigsergv 8y ago
This system is similar to ones already operating in MMORPG. And I'm sure that system in China is being exploited already. Finally only exploiters will get all the benefits leaving regular people far behind.
- ffwacom 8y ago
  I'd say your actions as a citizen would only net you -100 to +100 points. If you really wanted the 'heaven on earth' they promise you would need a friend in government to give you the ol communist loyal bonus of +500, or loyal party member bonus of +1000 purchasable from your local party rep for only 5,000,000 RMB.
kevcampb 8y ago
Future job role: Sesame Credit Optimisation (SCO) There's going to be so many ways to game this system when it gains wider adoption, it's going to be insane.
ffwacom 8y ago
So much for chinese dominance as a superpower, they are really shooting themselves in the foot with even trying this.
- js8 8y ago
  Note that Soviet Union remained superpower for some 70 years after it shot itself to the foot with Ukraine famine. While I agree ultimately this will fail to produce a competitive society, it might take a long time before people will be able to change the things for the better.
  - ffwacom 8y ago
    Accurate, but that's 70 years of social development they'll miss out on. In the meantime the west will continue its shitshow into some undetermined darwinistic future, as it has always been. Things are speeding up so we both know it won't be 70 years, the social score thing is just an expression/attempt at central control, wich has never worked. Economy and social values as a chaotic system, predicting the future, etc.
- ElBarto 8y ago
  Makes no difference at all.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
> Every step she takes, every one of her actions big or small — even what she thinks — can be tracked and judged. [emphasis added] Can anybody shed upon how these Social Credit systems would be able to track what a person thinks?
- hnzix 8y ago
  Facial expression recognition. I was talking with one big data analysis vendor who claimed they installed expression recognition software outside toilet stalls in the Dubai airport. If you exited the khazi with a disgusted expression, the system would recognize it and dispatch a cleanup crew. They also claimed they could detect if students were bored in class and feed this info back to the teacher. Up next: thoughtcrime.
  - bopbop 8y ago
    Amazing anecdotes.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    I wouldn’t have lumped expression recognition with what one is thinking. It’s feasible that a person could leave a toilet with a displeased expression while pondering some peculiar nuance of some specific domain of knowledge. But maybe in this context you’re right, the article meant to refer to expression recognition.
- spacehome 8y ago
  It's given away by your eye saccades. /sarcasm (for now)
- bcaa7f3a8bbc 8y ago
  > even what she thinks I don't think the cameras can track your mind. I think it is a little bit of exaggeration, and refers to e.g. knowing one's political leanings by analyzing online accounts.
teekert 8y ago
So, does anybody know how far off this is? Is this real within 2 years?
- perilunar 8y ago
  The article says there's pilot programs already happening, and it will be full operation by 2020, so yes, it's real.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gdsdfe 8y ago
Ironically Dandan is probably flagged now for agreeing to be part of this article ...
- bopbop 8y ago
  I'd imagine given her husband is a Chinese civil servant, this is either with approval or she has been asked to do it. There's no way a marketing consultant and a civil servant don't understand the potential ramifications of being part of the article!
PythonicAlpha 8y ago
Thoughtcrime at its best. The system wants to prevent the masses from thinking a different way, as the official way is. This is 1984 and even better. By giving "credits" (gamification) the people are like the frog in the boiling water. When they recognize it, it is to late. Is this the natural development of social media: Who does not conform to the masses, will be spit out by society? Many dictators try to get their nations "in line" by using such tactics. "We are all one people -- we act as one people". Is social media and gamification the solution for the wildest dreams of dictators? Individualism must and will be killed in such a system. Only one Individuum can exist in the long run: The queen/king of the bee colony.
maxxxxx 8y ago
Stuff like this will slowly stop further evolution of society and lock down the status quo. Right now we still have ways to change society peacefully but in a surveillance state either nothing changes or change has to come with force. I think societies with massive surveillance will stagnate until they collapse.
- facialwipe 8y ago
  Or more frightening, the Communist experiment is successful long-term and becomes the dominate model for 'stability' globally.
  - ffwacom 8y ago
    Doubt, there's no pure communist states left, they all fell after killing a bunch of their citizens by "knowing what's best". The economy is a chaotic system and any earnest attempt at top down control will fail, let alone communism which historically was more about transferring power to your friends than any real belief in an ideology.
    - mojuba 8y ago
      Just FYI (has been said a gazillion times on the Internet): no state on this planet was ever communist. Communism is a society without money, no such thing existed on a state level anywhere. The states you are referring to were 100% socialist, i.e. no private property in any form or share with very very few exceptions; money tightly controlled by the state; all businesses are state-owned. The comment above though probably meant the true communism, i.e. society without money.
      - ffwacom 8y ago
        A society without money is even more absurd.
        lightbyte 8y ago
crispyambulance 8y ago
Obviously the camera system can track humans walking around, but does it actually identify specific individuals? What does that number in the box with the chinese text mean? Are they able to use facial recognition _everywhere_ and thus record where everyone is or, more importantly, was? I am skeptical that this can pulled off with current technology? Can it?
- Maakuth 8y ago
  You could fuse the facial recognition data to phone radio base station tracking, bluetooth beacons and such to get multiple points of reference for verification. And tracking between workplaces, apartment buildings and transport turnstiles where you scan your personal ID.
- EZ-E 8y ago
  The number seems to be the social credit score The videos are not a real camera feed I believe, it seems to be there to illustrate the article
- bcaa7f3a8bbc 8y ago
  > does it actually identify specific individuals? Some do. > Suspect caught in China at concert after being detected by face recognition tech https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17229530/china-facial-recognition-technology-suspect-music-festival https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17229530/china-facial-rec... > Chinese Facial Recognition System Would Fine Jaywalkers By Text https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a19623846/chinese-facial-recognition-system-would-fine-jaywalkers-by-text/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a... But I don't believe a camera at a supermarket is able to do that. Only if you use digital payment, or online shopping.
- kevcampb 8y ago
  It cannot Source: I worked in a related field for five years, and evaluated a lot of technologies from major players.
EZ-E 8y ago
The article confuses the Sesame score (credit score computed by Alibaba to be used within their app) and the social score (government project which isn't really deployed yet but intended to rely on multiple private sources like Alibaba's sesame score) In the 2018 state of things, the social credit score is not (yet) as invasive as the article suggests. AFAIK it does not change according to your purchases, daily habits or online comments unless you get arrested. For now it mostly is influenced by credit repayments, debt and previous condamnations. I lived there 3 years and my "sesame score" as displayed on Alipay is still the default one.
rubinelli 8y ago
I expect those that defend the system see its appeal as a more rational alternative to guanxi, the informal networks of trust and reciprocal obligation that pervade Chinese society. Do you want a loan, or need a good hospital for your parent? You don't need to bribe or schmooze with the right person, only to be an orderly, hard-working citizen. On the other hand, you're trusting your score to "the algorythm", and any SEO consultant can tell you how brutally flawed and unfair "the algorythm" can be, even without overt malicious intent.
- argc_argv 8y ago
  with enough guanxi you will be able to change your score accordingly, so this credit system is solidifying the status quo
yurie_breschnef 8y ago
I sometimes feel like currency is a primitive preliminary to this social points system. People who show unusual or controversial behaviour (be it political or social) will soon loose sources of income and thereby social status. People who stick to the accepted norms and ethics and do not act up will on average have the chance to move up the ladder and earn more money and prestige. The analogy is not perfect, of course, but money has similar effects on our society.
- d4nt 8y ago
  It’s similar, but in capitalist systems all get a weighted vote on how many points you get. (Either by buying your time/products or if I’m your boss I can promote/fire you). By the look of it, the Chinese system gives complete control to the government. So it’s analogous to a fully planned economy.
  - yurie_breschnef 8y ago
    I agree with your point. I am sometimes baffled when people seem to think that the amount of money that is payed for a certain job is proportional to how beneficial that job or service is to the society. I mean, there are Bankers who make good money screwing everybody over. Yet somehow people seem to look up to them. I'd like to think that there might be improvements in how we value/pay services. But letting the government decide that is also quite foolish.
- mtgx 8y ago
  Except in this system you will get penalized (lose income) for not supporting the government in power. That's not exactly how it works in a standard capitalist and democratic system.
- partisan 8y ago
  A religious analogy is that in Christianity, it is not enough to be good. You also have to accept Christ as your savior. Without both of those things, you risk your eternal soul. Here, the state is asking you to work within the laws they put in place and be a good productive worker by generating value, but you should also show absolute faith in the government and to prove it by achieving a high social score.
modzu 8y ago
the irony here is that the premise might not even be true -- does social credit really provide the "control" or "stability" it aims to achieve? who is writing the algorithm that says "napkins" credit your social score while alcohol debits it? compare financial scores which are not perfect either but they are based on models that have some science behind them. what model underwrites the social credit system? is it valid? it's scary to think that it could be arbitrary
adam-a 8y ago
It's an interesting article but it is also worth remembering that western society is not all that far away from this vision. Credit scores are widely used, there are apps for them, they can prevent you from getting housing or loans. A criminal record likewise affects your employment prospects, and many other areas of your life. CCTV may be widespread in China but the USA and UK are still way out in front[0]. Lastly, for the suppression of the guy who uncovered party corruption, just look at the treatment of Snowden or many other whistle blowers. 0 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/484956/number-of-surveillance-cameras-per-thousand-people-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/484956/number-of-surveil...
- vthallam 8y ago
  stop this "what about the western world". I see this pattern every time there's a critical article about China. When there's an article about the west's censorship, we would be happy to talk about it, but for now, let's focus on the ridiculous and crazy to be put it mildly things going on in China.
  - qubax 8y ago
    Why? We are not chinese. We don't live in china. I'm more worried about censorship in the US and especially europe since europeans seem so intent on bringing their censorship to the US and the entire world. At least the chinese censorship affects their country mostly. > I see this pattern every time there's a critical article about China. Because we get the same story about china multiple times in a day. Just from "abc.net.au" within the past 19 hours. The same story has been pushed onto the frontpage. "China’s all-seeing surveillance network" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18030655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18030655 "China is building a digital dictatorship to exert control over its 1.4B citizens" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18026060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18026060 I'd called this propaganda rather than news. > let's focus on the ridiculous and crazy to be put it mildly things going on in China. Why? If china wanted to export their dictatorship to the US, I can see why we should be concerned. But they aren't. It's primarily europe and segments of puritanical leftists and rightist in the US along with parts of the tech leadership. It's fine to have a story about china once in a while, but multiple times daily just reeks of propaganda.
stunt 8y ago
Don't blame China. It is pretty much the same in many countries. With a few exceptions in Europe, some sort of extreme surveillance state already exist in every country that can afford it.

124 points by playpause 8y ago

I think the concept of social credit has a lot of merits. But the risk for overreach is substantial unfortunately. I'd love to get rid of people who are unable to ride a train like a social human from the trains and lock people out of cinemas who can't behave as one should expect.

infiniteseeker 8y ago
And I’d love to give people who have similar views to you (on this matter) a -1 score for life. Who’s right?
- Numberwang 8y ago
  Well the rules should be known just as laws are, not a personal opinion by Mr Inifinitypants.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
raxxorrax 8y ago
> I'd love to get rid of people who are unable to ride a train Really? I am for getting rid of people who use trains. No personal transport? You are probably just too poor... But yeah, generally we should indeed welcome data collection about every detail of our personal lives. Because you know what would be the benefit? Watching star wars without this stinky nerd that always spoils the next 10 minutes of the movie. I can see no argument how you could be against this anymore.

yurie_breschnef 8y ago

I think this is a horrible idea. Just imagine how many times we have been wrong in our judgement of the behaviour of citizens. What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions? We have proven time and time again that there is no sure way to judge how "social and acceptable" something is, and the value of a behaviour to our society. What is seen as "unsocial" today may be applauded by historians in the future.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
RustySpottedCat 8y ago
Yes but saying "screw the government" on social media today, doesn't really matter if it's going to be applauded in the future, it's still going to be aimed at the government, which is the whole point of the system.
- yurie_breschnef 8y ago
  Could you elaborate?
FundThrowaway 8y ago
I'm pretty sure that's half of the point, stop any radicals from forming large followings.
- mtgx 8y ago
  Where radical means those that those the people in power in any way.
ag71668 8y ago
> What would the social credit score of Ghandi or Martin Luther Kind have been, at the time of their prominent actions? Their scores would be low. That's the whole point of these systems. Surveillance and these metrics were never about making the world a better place, they're about identifying threats to the status quo so that they can be neutralized before they become impactful. A government's definition of 'terrorist' or 'threat' is not some shady guy that wants to blow up a train station, it's literally anyone who is a credible threat to how the current system runs, anyone who could conceivably change things in a manner not approved by those currently in power. You talk about Martin Luther King, then surely you're aware to what extents the government of the time went to try to shut him down. All the major governments have invested billions of dollars into studying how uprisings and upsets happen, how to predict them, and how to curb them. The only figures that will now rise to public prominence are those that are vetted by the existing power structure.

yesenadam 8y ago

Better title - Social credit: China's digital dictatorship Pretty horrifying story, sounds like Black Mirror.

bopbop 8y ago
Yeah, the title is awful - I was happier with the article then I thought I'd be, as it did go in to some of the negative points. To point to any atomic automatic judgment of ones citizens based on their beliefs as a good thing is a bit of a weird view, however. The examples they give are all terrifying. It's also not great that the lady they report as pro social credit is only revealed later on in the piece as being married to a high ranking party member. She's introduced as "a marketing professional" when I'd argue the most relevant facts towards her support/non-support of such a system would be that she is married to "a civil servant in the justice department, a loyal cadre to the party." The article makes several strange emotional appeals regarding her, actually. For instance, I'm glad she "married for love", but I don't see why it would be relevant to the issue at hand unless it was an attempt to further humanize her and, by extension, this new Permanent Spotlight system.
- bopbop 8y ago
  Just for reference the original title was 'Leave no dark corner'
  - perilunar 8y ago
    I get that as a page title, but a different 'title' in the URL. Maybe they are AB testing the title?
- clouddrover 8y ago
  > I'm glad she "married for love", but I don't see why it would be relevant They're just making the point that she didn't marry him for his social credit score, even though he happens to have a high score under the system. To quote the article immediately prior to that section: "Who your friends and family are will affect your score. If your best friend or your dad says something negative about the government, you’ll lose points too. Who you date and ultimately partner with will also affect social credit." It seems like your social credit score is positioned as your key to happiness. Better not get a bad one or associate with anyone who did. Better not wreck your child's future by saying something bad about the government.

sigsergv 8y ago

This system is similar to ones already operating in MMORPG. And I'm sure that system in China is being exploited already. Finally only exploiters will get all the benefits leaving regular people far behind.

ffwacom 8y ago
I'd say your actions as a citizen would only net you -100 to +100 points. If you really wanted the 'heaven on earth' they promise you would need a friend in government to give you the ol communist loyal bonus of +500, or loyal party member bonus of +1000 purchasable from your local party rep for only 5,000,000 RMB.

kevcampb 8y ago

Future job role: Sesame Credit Optimisation (SCO) There's going to be so many ways to game this system when it gains wider adoption, it's going to be insane.

ffwacom 8y ago

So much for chinese dominance as a superpower, they are really shooting themselves in the foot with even trying this.

js8 8y ago
Note that Soviet Union remained superpower for some 70 years after it shot itself to the foot with Ukraine famine. While I agree ultimately this will fail to produce a competitive society, it might take a long time before people will be able to change the things for the better.
- ffwacom 8y ago
  Accurate, but that's 70 years of social development they'll miss out on. In the meantime the west will continue its shitshow into some undetermined darwinistic future, as it has always been. Things are speeding up so we both know it won't be 70 years, the social score thing is just an expression/attempt at central control, wich has never worked. Economy and social values as a chaotic system, predicting the future, etc.
ElBarto 8y ago
Makes no difference at all.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago

> Every step she takes, every one of her actions big or small — even what she thinks — can be tracked and judged. [emphasis added] Can anybody shed upon how these Social Credit systems would be able to track what a person thinks?

hnzix 8y ago
Facial expression recognition. I was talking with one big data analysis vendor who claimed they installed expression recognition software outside toilet stalls in the Dubai airport. If you exited the khazi with a disgusted expression, the system would recognize it and dispatch a cleanup crew. They also claimed they could detect if students were bored in class and feed this info back to the teacher. Up next: thoughtcrime.
- bopbop 8y ago
  Amazing anecdotes.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  I wouldn’t have lumped expression recognition with what one is thinking. It’s feasible that a person could leave a toilet with a displeased expression while pondering some peculiar nuance of some specific domain of knowledge. But maybe in this context you’re right, the article meant to refer to expression recognition.
spacehome 8y ago
It's given away by your eye saccades. /sarcasm (for now)
bcaa7f3a8bbc 8y ago
> even what she thinks I don't think the cameras can track your mind. I think it is a little bit of exaggeration, and refers to e.g. knowing one's political leanings by analyzing online accounts.

teekert 8y ago

So, does anybody know how far off this is? Is this real within 2 years?

perilunar 8y ago
The article says there's pilot programs already happening, and it will be full operation by 2020, so yes, it's real.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

gdsdfe 8y ago

Ironically Dandan is probably flagged now for agreeing to be part of this article ...

bopbop 8y ago
I'd imagine given her husband is a Chinese civil servant, this is either with approval or she has been asked to do it. There's no way a marketing consultant and a civil servant don't understand the potential ramifications of being part of the article!

PythonicAlpha 8y ago

Thoughtcrime at its best. The system wants to prevent the masses from thinking a different way, as the official way is. This is 1984 and even better. By giving "credits" (gamification) the people are like the frog in the boiling water. When they recognize it, it is to late. Is this the natural development of social media: Who does not conform to the masses, will be spit out by society? Many dictators try to get their nations "in line" by using such tactics. "We are all one people -- we act as one people". Is social media and gamification the solution for the wildest dreams of dictators? Individualism must and will be killed in such a system. Only one Individuum can exist in the long run: The queen/king of the bee colony.

maxxxxx 8y ago

Stuff like this will slowly stop further evolution of society and lock down the status quo. Right now we still have ways to change society peacefully but in a surveillance state either nothing changes or change has to come with force. I think societies with massive surveillance will stagnate until they collapse.

facialwipe 8y ago
Or more frightening, the Communist experiment is successful long-term and becomes the dominate model for 'stability' globally.
- ffwacom 8y ago
  Doubt, there's no pure communist states left, they all fell after killing a bunch of their citizens by "knowing what's best". The economy is a chaotic system and any earnest attempt at top down control will fail, let alone communism which historically was more about transferring power to your friends than any real belief in an ideology.
  - mojuba 8y ago
    Just FYI (has been said a gazillion times on the Internet): no state on this planet was ever communist. Communism is a society without money, no such thing existed on a state level anywhere. The states you are referring to were 100% socialist, i.e. no private property in any form or share with very very few exceptions; money tightly controlled by the state; all businesses are state-owned. The comment above though probably meant the true communism, i.e. society without money.
    - ffwacom 8y ago
      A society without money is even more absurd.
      - lightbyte 8y ago

crispyambulance 8y ago

Obviously the camera system can track humans walking around, but does it actually identify specific individuals? What does that number in the box with the chinese text mean? Are they able to use facial recognition _everywhere_ and thus record where everyone is or, more importantly, was? I am skeptical that this can pulled off with current technology? Can it?

Maakuth 8y ago
You could fuse the facial recognition data to phone radio base station tracking, bluetooth beacons and such to get multiple points of reference for verification. And tracking between workplaces, apartment buildings and transport turnstiles where you scan your personal ID.
EZ-E 8y ago
The number seems to be the social credit score The videos are not a real camera feed I believe, it seems to be there to illustrate the article
bcaa7f3a8bbc 8y ago
> does it actually identify specific individuals? Some do. > Suspect caught in China at concert after being detected by face recognition tech https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17229530/china-facial-recognition-technology-suspect-music-festival https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/12/17229530/china-facial-rec... > Chinese Facial Recognition System Would Fine Jaywalkers By Text https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a19623846/chinese-facial-recognition-system-would-fine-jaywalkers-by-text/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a... But I don't believe a camera at a supermarket is able to do that. Only if you use digital payment, or online shopping.
kevcampb 8y ago
It cannot Source: I worked in a related field for five years, and evaluated a lot of technologies from major players.

EZ-E 8y ago

The article confuses the Sesame score (credit score computed by Alibaba to be used within their app) and the social score (government project which isn't really deployed yet but intended to rely on multiple private sources like Alibaba's sesame score) In the 2018 state of things, the social credit score is not (yet) as invasive as the article suggests. AFAIK it does not change according to your purchases, daily habits or online comments unless you get arrested. For now it mostly is influenced by credit repayments, debt and previous condamnations. I lived there 3 years and my "sesame score" as displayed on Alipay is still the default one.

rubinelli 8y ago

I expect those that defend the system see its appeal as a more rational alternative to guanxi, the informal networks of trust and reciprocal obligation that pervade Chinese society. Do you want a loan, or need a good hospital for your parent? You don't need to bribe or schmooze with the right person, only to be an orderly, hard-working citizen. On the other hand, you're trusting your score to "the algorythm", and any SEO consultant can tell you how brutally flawed and unfair "the algorythm" can be, even without overt malicious intent.

argc_argv 8y ago
with enough guanxi you will be able to change your score accordingly, so this credit system is solidifying the status quo

yurie_breschnef 8y ago

I sometimes feel like currency is a primitive preliminary to this social points system. People who show unusual or controversial behaviour (be it political or social) will soon loose sources of income and thereby social status. People who stick to the accepted norms and ethics and do not act up will on average have the chance to move up the ladder and earn more money and prestige. The analogy is not perfect, of course, but money has similar effects on our society.

d4nt 8y ago
It’s similar, but in capitalist systems all get a weighted vote on how many points you get. (Either by buying your time/products or if I’m your boss I can promote/fire you). By the look of it, the Chinese system gives complete control to the government. So it’s analogous to a fully planned economy.
- yurie_breschnef 8y ago
  I agree with your point. I am sometimes baffled when people seem to think that the amount of money that is payed for a certain job is proportional to how beneficial that job or service is to the society. I mean, there are Bankers who make good money screwing everybody over. Yet somehow people seem to look up to them. I'd like to think that there might be improvements in how we value/pay services. But letting the government decide that is also quite foolish.
mtgx 8y ago
Except in this system you will get penalized (lose income) for not supporting the government in power. That's not exactly how it works in a standard capitalist and democratic system.
partisan 8y ago
A religious analogy is that in Christianity, it is not enough to be good. You also have to accept Christ as your savior. Without both of those things, you risk your eternal soul. Here, the state is asking you to work within the laws they put in place and be a good productive worker by generating value, but you should also show absolute faith in the government and to prove it by achieving a high social score.

modzu 8y ago

the irony here is that the premise might not even be true -- does social credit really provide the "control" or "stability" it aims to achieve? who is writing the algorithm that says "napkins" credit your social score while alcohol debits it? compare financial scores which are not perfect either but they are based on models that have some science behind them. what model underwrites the social credit system? is it valid? it's scary to think that it could be arbitrary

adam-a 8y ago

It's an interesting article but it is also worth remembering that western society is not all that far away from this vision. Credit scores are widely used, there are apps for them, they can prevent you from getting housing or loans. A criminal record likewise affects your employment prospects, and many other areas of your life. CCTV may be widespread in China but the USA and UK are still way out in front[0]. Lastly, for the suppression of the guy who uncovered party corruption, just look at the treatment of Snowden or many other whistle blowers. 0 - https://www.statista.com/statistics/484956/number-of-surveillance-cameras-per-thousand-people-by-country/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/484956/number-of-surveil...

vthallam 8y ago
stop this "what about the western world". I see this pattern every time there's a critical article about China. When there's an article about the west's censorship, we would be happy to talk about it, but for now, let's focus on the ridiculous and crazy to be put it mildly things going on in China.
- qubax 8y ago
  Why? We are not chinese. We don't live in china. I'm more worried about censorship in the US and especially europe since europeans seem so intent on bringing their censorship to the US and the entire world. At least the chinese censorship affects their country mostly. > I see this pattern every time there's a critical article about China. Because we get the same story about china multiple times in a day. Just from "abc.net.au" within the past 19 hours. The same story has been pushed onto the frontpage. "China’s all-seeing surveillance network" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18030655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18030655 "China is building a digital dictatorship to exert control over its 1.4B citizens" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18026060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18026060 I'd called this propaganda rather than news. > let's focus on the ridiculous and crazy to be put it mildly things going on in China. Why? If china wanted to export their dictatorship to the US, I can see why we should be concerned. But they aren't. It's primarily europe and segments of puritanical leftists and rightist in the US along with parts of the tech leadership. It's fine to have a story about china once in a while, but multiple times daily just reeks of propaganda.

stunt 8y ago

Don't blame China. It is pretty much the same in many countries. With a few exceptions in Europe, some sort of extreme surveillance state already exist in every country that can afford it.