12 ms·

We Now Know More About the Apparent Poisoning of the Pussy Riot Member

218 points by jbegley 8y ago

carbocation 8y ago
Probably worthwhile raising people's awareness of toxidromes, and how physicians try to recognize and think through these syndromes. There is a fantastic review article out this past year that helps to concisely put things together to improve your ability to distinguish nerve agents, mustard agents, etc. Quick recognition of the likely class of agent based on symptoms is important, because the treatments (and the risks to responders) differ. Original at https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1705224 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1705224 Full repost hosted presumably by one of the authors at http://www.dickyricky.com/Medicine/Papers/2018_04_26%20NEJM%20Toxidrome%20Recognition%20in%20Chemical-Weapons%20Attacks.pdf http://www.dickyricky.com/Medicine/Papers/2018_04_26%20NEJM%...
- aaron695 8y ago
  I'd probably start with learning CPR and how to deal with wounds. You can pretend it's for when you get shot as a spy (Like the three in the story) but also use it for boring everyday things like car accidents. As for physicians, I'd work on getting them to just wash their hands correctly, a lot of needless deaths there. But Chemical-Weapons Attacks are fun too, I just wouldn't say it's on the list of important things to learn, more on the fun side.
blunte 8y ago
At this point, are we really surprised at the way some people who perceive themselves as above the law (apply this to any political or commercial leaders you see fit) will behave? We have passed a turning point at which previously reprehensible behaviors have become tolerated. And as an English speaker living in the Netherlands has come to learn, some of us have an ingrained inclination to avoid directly calling out what to most people would be an obvious problem (to avoid potentially offending). Putin's Russia kills people. It imprisons people. It poisons people. It cheats, it steals (from masses of poor people). It lies in the face of the world (bare chested). For some reason we now tolerate this without calling it for what it is. And now we have an American government that has for so long not only avoided calling it out but instead has celebrated non-virtues while avoiding contagious fatal flaws that we forget how wrong for civilization the behavior is. Not only that, but we've begun to celebrate the virtues of dictators - not benevolent ones (if they exist), but previously-OBVIOUS horrible self-serving ones. So, trying to shut the rant down, it's all quite f-d up. We should not only not be surprised, we should be up in arms. Ironically, the people who should be up in arms are the ones who wisely have realized that arming the civilians is a net-negative. But at least in the US, the right to bear arms is exactly to undo situations like the one we are clearly headed toward.
- WillPostForFood 8y ago
  The US most definitely called out Putin for the assassinations in the UK, and had a stronger response than most of Europe. Italy, Estonia, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Romania and Finland also expelled between one and three diplomats each. President Donald Trump on Monday ordered the expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats the US identified as intelligence agents and the closure of the Russian consulate in Seattle https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/26/politics/us-expel-russian-diplomats/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/26/politics/us-expel-russian-dip...
  - blunte 8y ago
    Meanwhile, US-legal sanctions against Russia have simply not been enacted by the Trump administration. Unless you're willfully living under a rock, you must admit that it strongly appears that Trump is beholden to Russia in the same way that a middleman is under the thumb of his mob boss. Based on the available financial evidence (the countless companies and countless financial failures and defaulted loans), it's quite plausible that Trump owes some wealthy Russians a lot of money. His house of cards is built on OPM. Really there's no point debating this. Those who cannot see this are either extremely young and naive, or they are wilfully ignorant. I don't care what political figure it is on what side... thinking people can observe behaviors and identify patterns that illustrate (highly) likely back stories. Trump has a LOT of back stories. You need only to research his US endeavors to see that he has never, at least until becoming President, built a successful business on his own. Now, of course, he has the benefit of the perceived promise of his customers having access to him (a la Mar a Lago, for example).
    - WillPostForFood 8y ago
      Honestly, I feel the exact same way about your position. What could be tougher than this: U.S. Forces Killed More Than 200 Russian Fighters in Syria Attack https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-us-forces-killed-more-than-200-russian-fighters-in-syria-attack https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-us-forces-killed-more-t... And there are sanctions: Trump administration slaps more sanctions on Russia after Skripal poisonings https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/08/politics/us-state-department-russia-sanctions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/08/politics/us-state-department-...
07d046 8y ago
Following their World Cup protest, I discovered that some of Pussy Riot's music is on Spotify, in case anybody is interested. Edit: I guess people aren't interested. My bad.
- ddingus 8y ago
  Upvoted. Some of their music is good.
krn 8y ago
Poison in the System[1] is the first part of Buzzfeed's investigative journalism series on many unexpected deaths related to Russia since 2003. The entire series is worth a book. [1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system
- everdev 8y ago
  I've always wondered: why poison? It doesn't always seem to kill the victim and makes it easy to identify the perps as state actors.
  - baybal2 8y ago
    >I've always wondered: why poison? Exactly for these reasons: >It doesn't always seem to kill the victim and makes it easy to identify the perps as state actors. Quick and effortless death by a bullet don't terrify peons as much as death after weeks of excruciating agony. In this case, it is also to send intimidation message to the country hosting them: hey look, we just wetted a man guarded by a squadron of crack bodyguards on your soil, now, think what we can do to you
    - seppin 8y ago
      Don't excuse people that are bad at their jobs. Poison is meant to kill people, which proves to be more difficult than it sounds. If you don't believe me, read up on capital punishment in the US and how often it fails.
  - make3 8y ago
    maybe gunning someone down is an act of war, while poisoning sends a very clear message while somehow not being an act of war
    - losteric 8y ago
      No, state-sponsored poison attacks are still acts of war.
colordrops 8y ago
Any indication of what type of poison was used? The symptoms sound horrific. Blindness, and continued hallucinations after days. Must be very traumatic.
- nbabitskiy 8y ago
  Media reported that he "may have been poisoned with strychnine", but there's no official diagnose yet. EDIT: I'm badly mistaken. It was reported about Russian-British couple in Salisbury. I've got confused, since there are three different poisonings being discussed in the media daily. Normal day in Russia(
Tycho 8y ago
Any news about the Russian government should be read with the understanding that the Western political establishment is desperate to find a pretext for entering the war in Syria and deposing the Assad regime, which has the military backing of Russia.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Your theory here being that Masha Gessen is collaborating with the Trump administration.
  - Tycho 8y ago
    No.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      Then help me understand what your point could be about this New Yorker piece?
      - daxorid 8y ago
        Not the OP, but the obvious interpretation is that the Trump administration is not only not equivalent to, but in opposition to, the "Western political establishment". c.f. the "Deep State". True or not, it's a charitable read of OP.
        tptacek 8y ago
        I'm fine with s/Trump administration/deep state; the question stands.
  - detcader 8y ago
    Can certain types and angles of reporting be incentivized by the deep state and/or public fervor without direct "collaboration"? Or is every article a state sponsored propaganda-or-nothing deal?
- 8y ago
forapurpose 8y ago
When I see stories like this, I think of this editorial written by Lasantha Wickrematunge, a leading Sri Lankan journalist, to be printed in the event of his being killed: And Then They Came For Me No other profession calls on its practitioners to lay down their lives for their art save the armed forces and, in Sri Lanka, journalism. In the course of the past few years, the independent media have increasingly come under attack. Electronic and print-media institutions have been burnt, bombed, sealed and coerced. Countless journalists have been harassed, threatened and killed. It has been my honour to belong to all those categories and now especially the last. ... It's a powerful essay that challenges not only authorities but also simplistic hero/villain narratives about them, about journalists, and about their readers. Highly recommended: https://web.archive.org/web/20180120100014/http://www.thesundayleader.lk/20090111/editorial-.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20180120100014/http://www.thesun... If you remember nothing else, remember this: The [Sunday] Leader is there for you, be you Sinhalese, Tamil, Muslim, low-caste, homosexual, dissident or disabled. Its staff will fight on, unbowed and unafraid, with the courage to which you have become accustomed. Do not take that commitment for granted. Let there be no doubt that whatever sacrifices we journalists make, they are not made for our own glory or enrichment: they are made for you. Whether you deserve their sacrifice is another matter. As for me, God knows I tried.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
zemleamir 8y ago
Things that are interesting about this to me: 1. In Russia, nobody really knows or cares about pussy riot. The western fascination with them is a kind of exoticism. Nadya Tolokonnikova can fill a 1000-5000 seat lecture hall in a major american city, but in Moscow it'd be a surprise if 100 people showed up. This isn't out of fear or anything like that; think what kind of attendance a young, white, American punk woman doing art pranks in America would draw on the American speaking circuit. It's the same in Russia, to most people they're just not that interesting. 2. In Russia, nobody knows or cares about zona.media. This article says "...Media Zone quickly established itself as one of the country’s most reliable sources of information," but it's basically the modern Russian equivalent of IndyMedia: a protest calendar that only a very small contingent of activists pay attention to with the normal levels of radical infighting and articles written for the echo chamber. Nobody "on the street" has even heard of it. 3. Putin has a slight growing problem with young people who didn't experience the "before" and "after" of his taking power in the 90s, but for the most part nobody cares about these stories. If you ask people "on the street" whether they think Putin was responsible for the apartment building bombings referenced here, most will straight up say "even if he was, I don't care, he's still amazing." There was even a podcast (radiolab?) that actually did these interviews. However, I am very prepared to believe that the Russian state poisoned Pyotr. What I never understand about these recent actions, though, is why? Why go out of your way to poison a no-name activist that operates in fringe circles for researching a story that nobody would care about, even if Putin were to confess live on TV channel 1?
- rdtsc 8y ago
  > Why go out of your way to poison a no-name activist that operates in fringe circles for researching a story that nobody would care about, even if Putin were to confess live on TV channel 1? A message to the West perhaps? > The western fascination with them is a kind of exoticism. But the West is important to them. They know the fascination and they know the West is watching so they just showed everyone they can be ruthless. It could play on the angle that Westerners should be careful about supporting too much someone like that as their popularity could end up killing them. For example, say Harvard wanted to invite Verzilov to give a talk. Now they might think twice - it would be nice to have him, but would they be painting a target on his back because of it? So it has kind of a secondary chilling effect. Another reason: > Verzilov had been working on an investigative story about the deaths of the three Russian journalists, Alexander Rastorguev, Orkhan Dzhemal, and Kirill Radchenko. It wasn't that he was particularly dangerous because of his political stance but because he started to dig into other journalists' suspicious deaths. So he might have been a no-name but got close enough to uncover things. One more reason: Eliminate the troublemakers early. Don't wait till they become popular. Have someone monitor the media and detect who is becoming "dangerous" and eliminate them before they have a huge following.
horsecaptin 8y ago
I always like to ask, "who wins?". News gets out that Russia is poisoning people critical of it. Who wins? Do they achieve their goals of silencing criticism? Obviously people think negatively of them and think twice before visiting the country. So, who wins?
- BurnGpuBurn 8y ago
  Good question. In my eyes Russia indeed has really no motive to do this. On the other hand, given the constant demonization of Russia over the last years, this perfectly fits that narrative. But if the goal was this demonization of Russia, then yeah, that's a lot of motive right there.

218 points by jbegley 8y ago

Probably worthwhile raising people's awareness of toxidromes, and how physicians try to recognize and think through these syndromes. There is a fantastic review article out this past year that helps to concisely put things together to improve your ability to distinguish nerve agents, mustard agents, etc. Quick recognition of the likely class of agent based on symptoms is important, because the treatments (and the risks to responders) differ. Original at https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1705224 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra1705224 Full repost hosted presumably by one of the authors at http://www.dickyricky.com/Medicine/Papers/2018_04_26%20NEJM%20Toxidrome%20Recognition%20in%20Chemical-Weapons%20Attacks.pdf http://www.dickyricky.com/Medicine/Papers/2018_04_26%20NEJM%...

aaron695 8y ago
I'd probably start with learning CPR and how to deal with wounds. You can pretend it's for when you get shot as a spy (Like the three in the story) but also use it for boring everyday things like car accidents. As for physicians, I'd work on getting them to just wash their hands correctly, a lot of needless deaths there. But Chemical-Weapons Attacks are fun too, I just wouldn't say it's on the list of important things to learn, more on the fun side.

blunte 8y ago

At this point, are we really surprised at the way some people who perceive themselves as above the law (apply this to any political or commercial leaders you see fit) will behave? We have passed a turning point at which previously reprehensible behaviors have become tolerated. And as an English speaker living in the Netherlands has come to learn, some of us have an ingrained inclination to avoid directly calling out what to most people would be an obvious problem (to avoid potentially offending). Putin's Russia kills people. It imprisons people. It poisons people. It cheats, it steals (from masses of poor people). It lies in the face of the world (bare chested). For some reason we now tolerate this without calling it for what it is. And now we have an American government that has for so long not only avoided calling it out but instead has celebrated non-virtues while avoiding contagious fatal flaws that we forget how wrong for civilization the behavior is. Not only that, but we've begun to celebrate the virtues of dictators - not benevolent ones (if they exist), but previously-OBVIOUS horrible self-serving ones. So, trying to shut the rant down, it's all quite f-d up. We should not only not be surprised, we should be up in arms. Ironically, the people who should be up in arms are the ones who wisely have realized that arming the civilians is a net-negative. But at least in the US, the right to bear arms is exactly to undo situations like the one we are clearly headed toward.

WillPostForFood 8y ago
The US most definitely called out Putin for the assassinations in the UK, and had a stronger response than most of Europe. Italy, Estonia, the Netherlands, the Czech Republic, Lithuania, Romania and Finland also expelled between one and three diplomats each. President Donald Trump on Monday ordered the expulsion of 60 Russian diplomats the US identified as intelligence agents and the closure of the Russian consulate in Seattle https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/26/politics/us-expel-russian-diplomats/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/26/politics/us-expel-russian-dip...
- blunte 8y ago
  Meanwhile, US-legal sanctions against Russia have simply not been enacted by the Trump administration. Unless you're willfully living under a rock, you must admit that it strongly appears that Trump is beholden to Russia in the same way that a middleman is under the thumb of his mob boss. Based on the available financial evidence (the countless companies and countless financial failures and defaulted loans), it's quite plausible that Trump owes some wealthy Russians a lot of money. His house of cards is built on OPM. Really there's no point debating this. Those who cannot see this are either extremely young and naive, or they are wilfully ignorant. I don't care what political figure it is on what side... thinking people can observe behaviors and identify patterns that illustrate (highly) likely back stories. Trump has a LOT of back stories. You need only to research his US endeavors to see that he has never, at least until becoming President, built a successful business on his own. Now, of course, he has the benefit of the perceived promise of his customers having access to him (a la Mar a Lago, for example).
  - WillPostForFood 8y ago
    Honestly, I feel the exact same way about your position. What could be tougher than this: U.S. Forces Killed More Than 200 Russian Fighters in Syria Attack https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-us-forces-killed-more-than-200-russian-fighters-in-syria-attack https://www.thedailybeast.com/report-us-forces-killed-more-t... And there are sanctions: Trump administration slaps more sanctions on Russia after Skripal poisonings https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/08/politics/us-state-department-russia-sanctions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/08/politics/us-state-department-...

07d046 8y ago

Following their World Cup protest, I discovered that some of Pussy Riot's music is on Spotify, in case anybody is interested. Edit: I guess people aren't interested. My bad.

ddingus 8y ago
Upvoted. Some of their music is good.

krn 8y ago

Poison in the System[1] is the first part of Buzzfeed's investigative journalism series on many unexpected deaths related to Russia since 2003. The entire series is worth a book. [1] https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system https://www.buzzfeed.com/heidiblake/poison-in-the-system

everdev 8y ago
I've always wondered: why poison? It doesn't always seem to kill the victim and makes it easy to identify the perps as state actors.
- baybal2 8y ago
  >I've always wondered: why poison? Exactly for these reasons: >It doesn't always seem to kill the victim and makes it easy to identify the perps as state actors. Quick and effortless death by a bullet don't terrify peons as much as death after weeks of excruciating agony. In this case, it is also to send intimidation message to the country hosting them: hey look, we just wetted a man guarded by a squadron of crack bodyguards on your soil, now, think what we can do to you
  - seppin 8y ago
    Don't excuse people that are bad at their jobs. Poison is meant to kill people, which proves to be more difficult than it sounds. If you don't believe me, read up on capital punishment in the US and how often it fails.
- make3 8y ago
  maybe gunning someone down is an act of war, while poisoning sends a very clear message while somehow not being an act of war
  - losteric 8y ago
    No, state-sponsored poison attacks are still acts of war.

colordrops 8y ago

Any indication of what type of poison was used? The symptoms sound horrific. Blindness, and continued hallucinations after days. Must be very traumatic.

nbabitskiy 8y ago
Media reported that he "may have been poisoned with strychnine", but there's no official diagnose yet. EDIT: I'm badly mistaken. It was reported about Russian-British couple in Salisbury. I've got confused, since there are three different poisonings being discussed in the media daily. Normal day in Russia(

Tycho 8y ago

Any news about the Russian government should be read with the understanding that the Western political establishment is desperate to find a pretext for entering the war in Syria and deposing the Assad regime, which has the military backing of Russia.

tptacek 8y ago
Your theory here being that Masha Gessen is collaborating with the Trump administration.
- Tycho 8y ago
  No.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Then help me understand what your point could be about this New Yorker piece?
    - daxorid 8y ago
      Not the OP, but the obvious interpretation is that the Trump administration is not only not equivalent to, but in opposition to, the "Western political establishment". c.f. the "Deep State". True or not, it's a charitable read of OP.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        I'm fine with s/Trump administration/deep state; the question stands.
- detcader 8y ago
  Can certain types and angles of reporting be incentivized by the deep state and/or public fervor without direct "collaboration"? Or is every article a state sponsored propaganda-or-nothing deal?
8y ago

forapurpose 8y ago

When I see stories like this, I think of this editorial written by Lasantha Wickrematunge, a leading Sri Lankan journalist, to be printed in the event of his being killed: And Then They Came For Me No other profession calls on its practitioners to lay down their lives for their art save the armed forces and, in Sri Lanka, journalism. In the course of the past few years, the independent media have increasingly come under attack. Electronic and print-media institutions have been burnt, bombed, sealed and coerced. Countless journalists have been harassed, threatened and killed. It has been my honour to belong to all those categories and now especially the last. ... It's a powerful essay that challenges not only authorities but also simplistic hero/villain narratives about them, about journalists, and about their readers. Highly recommended: https://web.archive.org/web/20180120100014/http://www.thesundayleader.lk/20090111/editorial-.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20180120100014/http://www.thesun... If you remember nothing else, remember this: The [Sunday] Leader is there for you, be you Sinhalese, Tamil, Muslim, low-caste, homosexual, dissident or disabled. Its staff will fight on, unbowed and unafraid, with the courage to which you have become accustomed. Do not take that commitment for granted. Let there be no doubt that whatever sacrifices we journalists make, they are not made for our own glory or enrichment: they are made for you. Whether you deserve their sacrifice is another matter. As for me, God knows I tried.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

zemleamir 8y ago

Things that are interesting about this to me: 1. In Russia, nobody really knows or cares about pussy riot. The western fascination with them is a kind of exoticism. Nadya Tolokonnikova can fill a 1000-5000 seat lecture hall in a major american city, but in Moscow it'd be a surprise if 100 people showed up. This isn't out of fear or anything like that; think what kind of attendance a young, white, American punk woman doing art pranks in America would draw on the American speaking circuit. It's the same in Russia, to most people they're just not that interesting. 2. In Russia, nobody knows or cares about zona.media. This article says "...Media Zone quickly established itself as one of the country’s most reliable sources of information," but it's basically the modern Russian equivalent of IndyMedia: a protest calendar that only a very small contingent of activists pay attention to with the normal levels of radical infighting and articles written for the echo chamber. Nobody "on the street" has even heard of it. 3. Putin has a slight growing problem with young people who didn't experience the "before" and "after" of his taking power in the 90s, but for the most part nobody cares about these stories. If you ask people "on the street" whether they think Putin was responsible for the apartment building bombings referenced here, most will straight up say "even if he was, I don't care, he's still amazing." There was even a podcast (radiolab?) that actually did these interviews. However, I am very prepared to believe that the Russian state poisoned Pyotr. What I never understand about these recent actions, though, is why? Why go out of your way to poison a no-name activist that operates in fringe circles for researching a story that nobody would care about, even if Putin were to confess live on TV channel 1?

rdtsc 8y ago
> Why go out of your way to poison a no-name activist that operates in fringe circles for researching a story that nobody would care about, even if Putin were to confess live on TV channel 1? A message to the West perhaps? > The western fascination with them is a kind of exoticism. But the West is important to them. They know the fascination and they know the West is watching so they just showed everyone they can be ruthless. It could play on the angle that Westerners should be careful about supporting too much someone like that as their popularity could end up killing them. For example, say Harvard wanted to invite Verzilov to give a talk. Now they might think twice - it would be nice to have him, but would they be painting a target on his back because of it? So it has kind of a secondary chilling effect. Another reason: > Verzilov had been working on an investigative story about the deaths of the three Russian journalists, Alexander Rastorguev, Orkhan Dzhemal, and Kirill Radchenko. It wasn't that he was particularly dangerous because of his political stance but because he started to dig into other journalists' suspicious deaths. So he might have been a no-name but got close enough to uncover things. One more reason: Eliminate the troublemakers early. Don't wait till they become popular. Have someone monitor the media and detect who is becoming "dangerous" and eliminate them before they have a huge following.

horsecaptin 8y ago

I always like to ask, "who wins?". News gets out that Russia is poisoning people critical of it. Who wins? Do they achieve their goals of silencing criticism? Obviously people think negatively of them and think twice before visiting the country. So, who wins?

BurnGpuBurn 8y ago
Good question. In my eyes Russia indeed has really no motive to do this. On the other hand, given the constant demonization of Russia over the last years, this perfectly fits that narrative. But if the goal was this demonization of Russia, then yeah, that's a lot of motive right there.