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Riders ride on the sidewalk because it's far more dangerous to ride on the street... cars are already not paying attention to bicyclists/motor cycles, are we to

Riders ride on the sidewalk because it's far more dangerous to ride on the street... cars are already not paying attention to bicyclists/motor cycles, are we to expect them to pay attention to scooters?

dannygarcia 8y ago
Totally agree. I live in the South Bay and occasionally ride a Bird scooter between the work bus and home. There's no way I'm riding on the bike lane without a helmet and I can't carry a helmet with me everywhere on the off chance a scooter is available. If anything characterizes drivers in this town it's their inattentiveness.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Maybe you shouldn’t ride one then?
  - dannygarcia 8y ago
    I do ask myself this every time I use one. Often, for me, the reward (convenience of getting home quickly or making the bus on time) is worth the risk (minor chance of getting ticketed or having an incident on a short trip). Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see if the enforcement of these rules will force customers like myself to stop using electric scooters until cities design better roads for these vehicles.
- jseliger 8y ago
  I can't carry a helmet with me everywhere on the off chance a scooter is available This is not a panacea, but there are some pretty good-seeming folding helmets out there: https://closca.com/products/fuga-helmet?variant=53832191509 https://closca.com/products/fuga-helmet?variant=53832191509
Rapzid 8y ago
I live in a city doing a scooter pilot with a few companies including Bird. My observation has been that many, many scooter riders are: * Breaking traffic laws(blowing through stop signs) * Riding in the streets and through intersections without paying attention to traffic * Riding quickly through parking lots without paying attention to traffic * Riding unsafely on sidewalks * Riding without helmets Generally, being oblivious to any safety responsibility. I witnessed a guy the other day riding down the sidewalk with one of those long skinny beer packs across the deck flopping around and sliding off with something else in his arms. It's super stressful operating a vehicle around the hot spots with this erratic, illegal behavior going on however I have yet to witness a vehicle plow them.
- Rebelgecko 8y ago
  I definitely see where you're coming from, but on the other hand you could make the exact same arguments about cyclists. The rates vary a bit (anecdotally, scooter riders are way less likely to wear helmets but more likely to stop at stop signs). I think the booming population of scooters is just increasing the number of opportunities to see the problems that exist for modes of transportation that split the difference between pedestrians and cars.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    And how many motorists do you see break the law on any given day? Many scooter-riders (and cyclists) do too, but I am less worried about them killing me, they'll just kill themselves (which has a social cost, admittedly, but doesn't seem to justify the general torches-and-pitchforks that the scooters evoke mysteriously).
  - Rapzid 8y ago
    Cyclist in my area(not SF, LA, NY, etc) tend to be much more safety conscious. They typically have high visibility wear and lights in the evening, and ride in the lanes and obey traffic laws and signage(traffic lights, stop signs, etc). As well, a scooter will casually accelerate very quickly up to 15mph which is not a casual cycling speed for most people; it's a beginner training speed and rarely seen in parking lots and other space constrained locations. Lane splitting is not legal in my state, and scooters seem to be much more likely to zip between cars and between cars and curbs including through lights and stop signs. Typically, surprisingly, cyclists will actually full stop behind cars at lights and not go around them to the front. I would contest, but be open to, it being a sampling biases. I would posit the scooter riders and my area are a much higher accident liability than cyclists in large part due to their own actions. Cycling is reasonably prevalent in the area I live at in my city. I think I can sum it all up with one phrase: "Carte Blanche"
- watwut 8y ago
  I understand complain about unsafe riding on the street, but those stop signs really really don't have safety importance for bicycles and scooters. It also seems to me that Americans would be happier if every single sport activity had helmet. It is treated as something between magical make me safe item and moral requirement.
manfredo 8y ago
It is often more dangerous to ride on the sidewalk than on the street. Crosswalks are created with enough visibility for someone crossing the street on foot, but not on a bicycle or scooter: https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/47021/is-it-really-safer-to-ride-in-the-road-than-on-the-sidewalk https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/47021/is-it-rea... The solution is better driving and riding training for both drivers and riders. Much of the riding skills taught in motorcycling classes are meant to increase the likelihood of drivers seeing the rider, and how to take percautions against inattentive drivers. I doubt there are the resources to provide bicyclists and scooter riders the same training, and most probably don't want to shell out $50-$150 on a riding class. But that's really the only feasible solution.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  The solution is bike lanes. Ideally separated ones. American roads are extremely wide so there is plenty of space.

dannygarcia 8y ago

Totally agree. I live in the South Bay and occasionally ride a Bird scooter between the work bus and home. There's no way I'm riding on the bike lane without a helmet and I can't carry a helmet with me everywhere on the off chance a scooter is available. If anything characterizes drivers in this town it's their inattentiveness.

ghaff 8y ago
Maybe you shouldn’t ride one then?
- dannygarcia 8y ago
  I do ask myself this every time I use one. Often, for me, the reward (convenience of getting home quickly or making the bus on time) is worth the risk (minor chance of getting ticketed or having an incident on a short trip). Nonetheless, it will be interesting to see if the enforcement of these rules will force customers like myself to stop using electric scooters until cities design better roads for these vehicles.
jseliger 8y ago
I can't carry a helmet with me everywhere on the off chance a scooter is available This is not a panacea, but there are some pretty good-seeming folding helmets out there: https://closca.com/products/fuga-helmet?variant=53832191509 https://closca.com/products/fuga-helmet?variant=53832191509

Rapzid 8y ago

I live in a city doing a scooter pilot with a few companies including Bird. My observation has been that many, many scooter riders are: * Breaking traffic laws(blowing through stop signs) * Riding in the streets and through intersections without paying attention to traffic * Riding quickly through parking lots without paying attention to traffic * Riding unsafely on sidewalks * Riding without helmets Generally, being oblivious to any safety responsibility. I witnessed a guy the other day riding down the sidewalk with one of those long skinny beer packs across the deck flopping around and sliding off with something else in his arms. It's super stressful operating a vehicle around the hot spots with this erratic, illegal behavior going on however I have yet to witness a vehicle plow them.

Rebelgecko 8y ago
I definitely see where you're coming from, but on the other hand you could make the exact same arguments about cyclists. The rates vary a bit (anecdotally, scooter riders are way less likely to wear helmets but more likely to stop at stop signs). I think the booming population of scooters is just increasing the number of opportunities to see the problems that exist for modes of transportation that split the difference between pedestrians and cars.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  And how many motorists do you see break the law on any given day? Many scooter-riders (and cyclists) do too, but I am less worried about them killing me, they'll just kill themselves (which has a social cost, admittedly, but doesn't seem to justify the general torches-and-pitchforks that the scooters evoke mysteriously).
- Rapzid 8y ago
  Cyclist in my area(not SF, LA, NY, etc) tend to be much more safety conscious. They typically have high visibility wear and lights in the evening, and ride in the lanes and obey traffic laws and signage(traffic lights, stop signs, etc). As well, a scooter will casually accelerate very quickly up to 15mph which is not a casual cycling speed for most people; it's a beginner training speed and rarely seen in parking lots and other space constrained locations. Lane splitting is not legal in my state, and scooters seem to be much more likely to zip between cars and between cars and curbs including through lights and stop signs. Typically, surprisingly, cyclists will actually full stop behind cars at lights and not go around them to the front. I would contest, but be open to, it being a sampling biases. I would posit the scooter riders and my area are a much higher accident liability than cyclists in large part due to their own actions. Cycling is reasonably prevalent in the area I live at in my city. I think I can sum it all up with one phrase: "Carte Blanche"
watwut 8y ago
I understand complain about unsafe riding on the street, but those stop signs really really don't have safety importance for bicycles and scooters. It also seems to me that Americans would be happier if every single sport activity had helmet. It is treated as something between magical make me safe item and moral requirement.

manfredo 8y ago

It is often more dangerous to ride on the sidewalk than on the street. Crosswalks are created with enough visibility for someone crossing the street on foot, but not on a bicycle or scooter: https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/47021/is-it-really-safer-to-ride-in-the-road-than-on-the-sidewalk https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/questions/47021/is-it-rea... The solution is better driving and riding training for both drivers and riders. Much of the riding skills taught in motorcycling classes are meant to increase the likelihood of drivers seeing the rider, and how to take percautions against inattentive drivers. I doubt there are the resources to provide bicyclists and scooter riders the same training, and most probably don't want to shell out $50-$150 on a riding class. But that's really the only feasible solution.

IshKebab 8y ago
The solution is bike lanes. Ideally separated ones. American roads are extremely wide so there is plenty of space.