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I wonder why "data engineer" isn't one of the suggested terms. Scientists do not really program science, nor do programmers research programs, as their respecti

I wonder why "data engineer" isn't one of the suggested terms. Scientists do not really program science, nor do programmers research programs, as their respective fields of expertise.

awake 8y ago
It is. I was a data engineer at spacex this past summer.
- Waterluvian 8y ago
  If you don't mind, what did you do?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
3rdAccount 8y ago
To be nitpicky, in the US, engineer means you graduated from an ABET accredited program in something like: Chemical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, electrical engineering, industrial engineering, computer engineering....etc. That is not to say programming isn't a difficult job that requires a lot of analytical and creative thinking similar to an engineer. The difference is in getting a degree in something that has 4-5 years of calculus based math, physics...etc classes. There is also a rigorous 8 hour test to get a license after 4 years on the job. I guess the broad term of building something and doing analysis fits here, but I don't see any Data Engineers in practice. What I see are Data Scientists and Data Analysts. Of course I'm arguing over semantics here, but it is important to get the distinction correct.
- vostok 8y ago
  > To be nitpicky, in the US, engineer means you graduated from an ABET accredited program in something like: Chemical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, electrical engineering, industrial engineering, computer engineering....etc. Do you happen to have a reference for this? At first glance, it seems to be incorrect rather than nitpicky. Anecdotally, I know plenty of people who do not have ABET accredited degrees and have "engineer" in their title in the US.
  - codazoda 8y ago
    Some even have engineer in their titles with no degree at all.
  - 3rdAccount 8y ago
    Unless you have a professional engineers license, you can't testify in court as an engineer. To get a professional engineer's license, you must graduate from an ABET accredited program.
    - learc83 8y ago
      Since we're being nitpicky, neither of those claims are true. >To get a professional engineer's license, you must graduate from an ABET accredited program. In some states you can take the FE and PE exam with a related non-ABET accredited degree and work experience based, and in some states you can take the exams with no degree based on experience only. For example, NY let's you substitute work experience for a degree. There's a table where you can see how much experience you need based on your degree (or lack of one). >Unless you have a professional engineers license, you can't testify in court as an engineer Courts determine what credentials qualify someone to testify as an expert witness, not state licensing boards. In some states, testifying in court as an engineer does qualify as practicing engineering without a license, and the state licensing board could fine you after the fact. However, in other states testifying in court doesn’t necessarily qualify as practicing engineering.
  - whoisthemachine 8y ago
    Someone can certainly call themselves an "engineer", but it doesn't have the same consequences as someone who has received an ABET accredited engineering degree... for example, if you've graduated from an ABET accredited engineering degree, you are able to become a licensed and registered professional engineer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Requirements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en....
  - ldarby 8y ago
    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/vvapy4/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/vvapy4/man-fined-... (There are lots of other articles about that case, that one sums it up mostly in the url)
- brandall10 8y ago
  A Computer Engineering degree does not require ABET accreditation - it didn't when I went to UCSD... the difference between Computer Science and Computer Engineering was just 4 classes. Exactly the same calc/physics classes between the two, which were engineering level.
  - 3rdAccount 8y ago
    There are plenty of engineering programs without ABET accreditation. If you get a degree from a non accredited program, you'll likely have a different title than engineers who graduated from an ABET school and will make less. This is because there has to be some standardization in what the people who build bridges learn in school. All companies are different, but my company won't even look at an engineer without ABET accreditation. Even a Ph.D. from China, which is just really dumb. It is reality though.
    - geebee 8y ago
      Interesting. Here's a list of mid career pay by major. Fields that tend to be accredited and value accreditation are certainly present in high places on the list, but variants of mathematics are in comparable places. My guess is that "economics and mathematics" or "computer science and mathematics" are probably examples of fields that require a lot of math but aren't part of an ABET accredited degree. Doesn't look like there's much of a pattern here. https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/majors-that-pay-you-back/bachelors https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/majors-that-p... Now, if you plan to work in structural or civil engineering or another field where accreditation is important, than yes, I would tend to agree that having an ABET accredited degree is important (as well as taking the PE exam for that field). Fields where ABET accreditation isn't terribly important (computational finance, google, facebook, and so forth) often pay more than the fields where it is (mechanical, civil). My guess is that passing the PE for computer engineering wouldn't make a big difference in your compensation at a top tech company, I certainly don't know anyone at those companies who has bothered - though I certainly am willing to evidence to the contrary!
- dekhn 8y ago
  I don't think your nitpick is correct. To be a licensed engineer within some fields, you do need ABET but there are many people who are "engineers" (their job title) but aren't required to be licensed.
  - analog31 8y ago
    Indeed, in the US, most engineers work under an "industrial exemption," for instance if they are employed within a company that makes a product, and not providing engineering services directly to the public. Most of the engineers at my workplace do not have licenses. On the other hand, our products get checked out by a certification lab, and the people who sign off on the test reports are in fact licensed. The work they do is phenomenally dull and bureaucratic. Of course there are also fields where everybody pursues a license such as civil. If I were to call myself an engineer, it would be in a field that doesn't have a discipline-specific license in my state. I don't know if it means that I don't need a license, or what. So far it has never been an issue.
bigger_cheese 8y ago
My current job title is "Data Engineer", before this role I was a "Process Engineer". In my opinion those two jobs are actually pretty similar. When I was working in process engineering I was trying to optimize the outputs from our industrial process on a day to day basis in this role broadly speaking I try to optimize the data extracted from the same industrial process. Mostly I'm concerned with how can we extract data out of our plant, how do we represent and present that data (particularly to operators and technicians) and how can we better recognize and respond to underlying trends in the data. Before I assumed the role (in 2011) my predecessor, who had a background as a statistician, was called a 'Process Statistician' so I assume my Manager changed the job title to reflect my background as an Engineer (Materials Engineering in my case).
- dnautics 8y ago
  What I would consider the difference between an engineer and not engineer (I am not an engineer) is delivering a qos or sla driven by measurement of tolerances and either empirical or imputed information from existing qos or tolerance information... Not necessarily the optimization part. Everyone does optimization to some degree (possibly negative) but not everyone is an engineer.
  - citrablue 8y ago
    I think of engineering as the practical counterpart to science. Science is finding patterns/uncovering truths/building and testing models; engineering is the deployment of technology to fulfill an objective.
    - bigger_cheese 8y ago
      Yes this is my view as well Engineering is applying theoretical knowledge to achieve practical solutions. In my world, which is industrial manufacturing there are scientific theories - fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, kinetics etc. which govern the fundamentals and limits of the process. As an engineer your take this knowledge along with your own intuitive experience and work to ensure the reactor is operating at peak efficiency.

I wonder why "data engineer" isn't one of the suggested terms. Scientists do not really program science, nor do programmers research programs, as their respective fields of expertise.

awake 8y ago

It is. I was a data engineer at spacex this past summer.

Waterluvian 8y ago
If you don't mind, what did you do?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

3rdAccount 8y ago

To be nitpicky, in the US, engineer means you graduated from an ABET accredited program in something like: Chemical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, electrical engineering, industrial engineering, computer engineering....etc. That is not to say programming isn't a difficult job that requires a lot of analytical and creative thinking similar to an engineer. The difference is in getting a degree in something that has 4-5 years of calculus based math, physics...etc classes. There is also a rigorous 8 hour test to get a license after 4 years on the job. I guess the broad term of building something and doing analysis fits here, but I don't see any Data Engineers in practice. What I see are Data Scientists and Data Analysts. Of course I'm arguing over semantics here, but it is important to get the distinction correct.

vostok 8y ago
> To be nitpicky, in the US, engineer means you graduated from an ABET accredited program in something like: Chemical engineering, mechanical engineering, civil engineering, electrical engineering, industrial engineering, computer engineering....etc. Do you happen to have a reference for this? At first glance, it seems to be incorrect rather than nitpicky. Anecdotally, I know plenty of people who do not have ABET accredited degrees and have "engineer" in their title in the US.
- codazoda 8y ago
  Some even have engineer in their titles with no degree at all.
- 3rdAccount 8y ago
  Unless you have a professional engineers license, you can't testify in court as an engineer. To get a professional engineer's license, you must graduate from an ABET accredited program.
  - learc83 8y ago
    Since we're being nitpicky, neither of those claims are true. >To get a professional engineer's license, you must graduate from an ABET accredited program. In some states you can take the FE and PE exam with a related non-ABET accredited degree and work experience based, and in some states you can take the exams with no degree based on experience only. For example, NY let's you substitute work experience for a degree. There's a table where you can see how much experience you need based on your degree (or lack of one). >Unless you have a professional engineers license, you can't testify in court as an engineer Courts determine what credentials qualify someone to testify as an expert witness, not state licensing boards. In some states, testifying in court as an engineer does qualify as practicing engineering without a license, and the state licensing board could fine you after the fact. However, in other states testifying in court doesn’t necessarily qualify as practicing engineering.
- whoisthemachine 8y ago
  Someone can certainly call themselves an "engineer", but it doesn't have the same consequences as someone who has received an ABET accredited engineering degree... for example, if you've graduated from an ABET accredited engineering degree, you are able to become a licensed and registered professional engineer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering#Requirements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_en....
- ldarby 8y ago
  https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/vvapy4/man-fined-dollar500-for-crime-of-writing-i-am-an-engineer-in-an-email-to-the-government https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/vvapy4/man-fined-... (There are lots of other articles about that case, that one sums it up mostly in the url)
brandall10 8y ago
A Computer Engineering degree does not require ABET accreditation - it didn't when I went to UCSD... the difference between Computer Science and Computer Engineering was just 4 classes. Exactly the same calc/physics classes between the two, which were engineering level.
- 3rdAccount 8y ago
  There are plenty of engineering programs without ABET accreditation. If you get a degree from a non accredited program, you'll likely have a different title than engineers who graduated from an ABET school and will make less. This is because there has to be some standardization in what the people who build bridges learn in school. All companies are different, but my company won't even look at an engineer without ABET accreditation. Even a Ph.D. from China, which is just really dumb. It is reality though.
  - geebee 8y ago
    Interesting. Here's a list of mid career pay by major. Fields that tend to be accredited and value accreditation are certainly present in high places on the list, but variants of mathematics are in comparable places. My guess is that "economics and mathematics" or "computer science and mathematics" are probably examples of fields that require a lot of math but aren't part of an ABET accredited degree. Doesn't look like there's much of a pattern here. https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/majors-that-pay-you-back/bachelors https://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/majors-that-p... Now, if you plan to work in structural or civil engineering or another field where accreditation is important, than yes, I would tend to agree that having an ABET accredited degree is important (as well as taking the PE exam for that field). Fields where ABET accreditation isn't terribly important (computational finance, google, facebook, and so forth) often pay more than the fields where it is (mechanical, civil). My guess is that passing the PE for computer engineering wouldn't make a big difference in your compensation at a top tech company, I certainly don't know anyone at those companies who has bothered - though I certainly am willing to evidence to the contrary!
dekhn 8y ago
I don't think your nitpick is correct. To be a licensed engineer within some fields, you do need ABET but there are many people who are "engineers" (their job title) but aren't required to be licensed.
- analog31 8y ago
  Indeed, in the US, most engineers work under an "industrial exemption," for instance if they are employed within a company that makes a product, and not providing engineering services directly to the public. Most of the engineers at my workplace do not have licenses. On the other hand, our products get checked out by a certification lab, and the people who sign off on the test reports are in fact licensed. The work they do is phenomenally dull and bureaucratic. Of course there are also fields where everybody pursues a license such as civil. If I were to call myself an engineer, it would be in a field that doesn't have a discipline-specific license in my state. I don't know if it means that I don't need a license, or what. So far it has never been an issue.

bigger_cheese 8y ago

My current job title is "Data Engineer", before this role I was a "Process Engineer". In my opinion those two jobs are actually pretty similar. When I was working in process engineering I was trying to optimize the outputs from our industrial process on a day to day basis in this role broadly speaking I try to optimize the data extracted from the same industrial process. Mostly I'm concerned with how can we extract data out of our plant, how do we represent and present that data (particularly to operators and technicians) and how can we better recognize and respond to underlying trends in the data. Before I assumed the role (in 2011) my predecessor, who had a background as a statistician, was called a 'Process Statistician' so I assume my Manager changed the job title to reflect my background as an Engineer (Materials Engineering in my case).

dnautics 8y ago
What I would consider the difference between an engineer and not engineer (I am not an engineer) is delivering a qos or sla driven by measurement of tolerances and either empirical or imputed information from existing qos or tolerance information... Not necessarily the optimization part. Everyone does optimization to some degree (possibly negative) but not everyone is an engineer.
- citrablue 8y ago
  I think of engineering as the practical counterpart to science. Science is finding patterns/uncovering truths/building and testing models; engineering is the deployment of technology to fulfill an objective.
  - bigger_cheese 8y ago
    Yes this is my view as well Engineering is applying theoretical knowledge to achieve practical solutions. In my world, which is industrial manufacturing there are scientific theories - fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, kinetics etc. which govern the fundamentals and limits of the process. As an engineer your take this knowledge along with your own intuitive experience and work to ensure the reactor is operating at peak efficiency.