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My perception and view of the US and it's culture also slightly shifted after GDPR came into spotlight (same conclusions as yours). Just the other day I ended

My perception and view of the US and it's culture also slightly shifted after GDPR came into spotlight (same conclusions as yours). Just the other day I ended up in a discussion with a US citizen (it started completely harmless and away from culture/politics) and ended up in the same corner: "EU is bad because it limits your freedom, US is great because it gives you freedom". The problem is - the argument (my understanding of the interlocutor) was about companies, and what they can do. In my view, in Europe there is a bigger pressure to value people/individuals over company/corporate interest and that's seems like the crux of the difference.

ApolloFortyNine 8y ago
Idk how you can argue the EU values people over corporate interest while this copyright law is on it's way to being passed. Here's one of the many articles about what's wrong with it. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/06/eus-copyright-proposal-extremely-bad-news-everyone-even-especially-wikipedia https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/06/eus-copyright-proposal...
- Tomte 8y ago
  It's one of thousands of laws, but sure, this one is the definitive indicator of the EU's values. Maybe we could try to find a single US law that we don't like and dismiss America just as readily?
  - r_smart 8y ago
    We all know you're going to pick the Patriot Act :)
    - Tomte 8y ago
      Or maybe The Hague Invasion Act? ;-)
      - r_smart 8y ago
        Never heard of this one, and didn't know anything about it. I tried reading the Wikipedia page. Now I've heard of it, but still don't know anything about it.
    - phobosdeimos 8y ago
      How about the Second Amendment ;)
- joe463369 8y ago
  I find that article uncompelling. Cory Doctorow makes some pretty bold statements that appear to be at odds with the directive as I read it. Some of it feels like wilful misinterpretation.
Joeri 8y ago
In my view, in Europe there is a bigger pressure to value people/individuals over company/corporate interest and that's seems like the crux of the difference. I think it’s more about two different definitions of freedom. The U.S. defines it as the freedom to choose, where harmful outcomes are an accident of letting people freely choose. The E.U. sees it more as the freedom to live, where choices that harm quality of life need to be restrained.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  I'm going to guess you're not from Europe based on that definition? The EU constrains companies to the benefit of individuals. It's not stopping people from hurting themselves, it's stopping them from being hurt by companies who have phenomenal power over us, more power in some ways than states themselves have.
  - timrichard 8y ago
    There are over 30,000 [1] paid lobbyists in Brussels, and you think "the EU constrains companies to the benefit of individuals". And these latest outrageous copyright and link proposals are widely regarded to be for the benefit of certain German media magnates. Whatever criticism the EU attracts for its spending, the PR budget looks to be pretty good value. I'm really baffled by some of these perspectives. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-euro...
    - kazen44 8y ago
      The EU actually has extensive law about lobbying.[1] It actually tries to be transparant in regards to how lobbying happens and what kind of lobbying happens. Also, your 30K figure also includes lobbyists from civil rights groups and other NGO's. Not just purely companies. Lobbying happens, it is how people influence politics. Better to be transparant and open about it them to hide it. [1] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/572803/EPRS_BRI(2015)572803_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/57280...
d1zzy 8y ago
I agree with those points and I'd like to add that both approaches (US and EU) have their drawbacks (and advantages). In limiting businesses more in the EU I found out that it generally means less competition and fewer companies (per capita) than the US, in my limited experience of having lived in the EU most of my life before moving to the US and still visiting Europe every year. One of the most common shocks of moving to the US from Europe is the sheer number of options/choices that you have/can make for every little thing. Back in Europe there was 1-2 supermarket chains, here there are much more. Same for food (fast or otherwise), insurance agencies, banks/credit unions, broker services, pension funds plus countless small stores (not national chains). In most interactions I have in the US I really do feel that "the customer is always right" (there are lots of exceptions to that rule but you will generally see those exceptions also happen because of lack of competition) while in Europe most of the interactions I had as a customer meant I would have to either beg for something or get angry about it/make a scene in order to make progress on an issue. There are also deeper cultural differences in criteria customers use to pick one company or the other. In the US people seem more willing to vote with their wallets and do not look back while I feel much less of that happening in Europe. It's hard of course to generalize across such large and varied populations and economies but this has been my experience and it does align with logical explanations of consequences of limiting businesses more or less in a free market environment.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
kodablah 8y ago
> In my view, in Europe there is a bigger pressure to value people/individuals over company/corporate interest and that's seems like the crux of the difference. The sentence reads funny as if people/individuals don't own companies. A better way to put it would be that they value some kinds of people over other kinds of people. Or users over entrepreneurs, or something besides just the ambiguous "people".

ApolloFortyNine 8y ago

Idk how you can argue the EU values people over corporate interest while this copyright law is on it's way to being passed. Here's one of the many articles about what's wrong with it. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/06/eus-copyright-proposal-extremely-bad-news-everyone-even-especially-wikipedia https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/06/eus-copyright-proposal...

Tomte 8y ago
It's one of thousands of laws, but sure, this one is the definitive indicator of the EU's values. Maybe we could try to find a single US law that we don't like and dismiss America just as readily?
- r_smart 8y ago
  We all know you're going to pick the Patriot Act :)
  - Tomte 8y ago
    Or maybe The Hague Invasion Act? ;-)
    - r_smart 8y ago
      Never heard of this one, and didn't know anything about it. I tried reading the Wikipedia page. Now I've heard of it, but still don't know anything about it.
  - phobosdeimos 8y ago
    How about the Second Amendment ;)
joe463369 8y ago
I find that article uncompelling. Cory Doctorow makes some pretty bold statements that appear to be at odds with the directive as I read it. Some of it feels like wilful misinterpretation.

Joeri 8y ago

In my view, in Europe there is a bigger pressure to value people/individuals over company/corporate interest and that's seems like the crux of the difference. I think it’s more about two different definitions of freedom. The U.S. defines it as the freedom to choose, where harmful outcomes are an accident of letting people freely choose. The E.U. sees it more as the freedom to live, where choices that harm quality of life need to be restrained.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
I'm going to guess you're not from Europe based on that definition? The EU constrains companies to the benefit of individuals. It's not stopping people from hurting themselves, it's stopping them from being hurt by companies who have phenomenal power over us, more power in some ways than states themselves have.
- timrichard 8y ago
  There are over 30,000 [1] paid lobbyists in Brussels, and you think "the EU constrains companies to the benefit of individuals". And these latest outrageous copyright and link proposals are widely regarded to be for the benefit of certain German media magnates. Whatever criticism the EU attracts for its spending, the PR budget looks to be pretty good value. I'm really baffled by some of these perspectives. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-european-parliament-brussels-corporate https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/lobbyists-euro...
  - kazen44 8y ago
    The EU actually has extensive law about lobbying.[1] It actually tries to be transparant in regards to how lobbying happens and what kind of lobbying happens. Also, your 30K figure also includes lobbyists from civil rights groups and other NGO's. Not just purely companies. Lobbying happens, it is how people influence politics. Better to be transparant and open about it them to hide it. [1] http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/572803/EPRS_BRI(2015)572803_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/57280...

d1zzy 8y ago

I agree with those points and I'd like to add that both approaches (US and EU) have their drawbacks (and advantages). In limiting businesses more in the EU I found out that it generally means less competition and fewer companies (per capita) than the US, in my limited experience of having lived in the EU most of my life before moving to the US and still visiting Europe every year. One of the most common shocks of moving to the US from Europe is the sheer number of options/choices that you have/can make for every little thing. Back in Europe there was 1-2 supermarket chains, here there are much more. Same for food (fast or otherwise), insurance agencies, banks/credit unions, broker services, pension funds plus countless small stores (not national chains). In most interactions I have in the US I really do feel that "the customer is always right" (there are lots of exceptions to that rule but you will generally see those exceptions also happen because of lack of competition) while in Europe most of the interactions I had as a customer meant I would have to either beg for something or get angry about it/make a scene in order to make progress on an issue. There are also deeper cultural differences in criteria customers use to pick one company or the other. In the US people seem more willing to vote with their wallets and do not look back while I feel much less of that happening in Europe. It's hard of course to generalize across such large and varied populations and economies but this has been my experience and it does align with logical explanations of consequences of limiting businesses more or less in a free market environment.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

kodablah 8y ago

> In my view, in Europe there is a bigger pressure to value people/individuals over company/corporate interest and that's seems like the crux of the difference. The sentence reads funny as if people/individuals don't own companies. A better way to put it would be that they value some kinds of people over other kinds of people. Or users over entrepreneurs, or something besides just the ambiguous "people".